Rising 3 year ridden at BEF show.

So what he has identified as the stand out traits of Galileos are psychological traits. He then works with those traits and allows them to come out on the home straits of the world's premier tracks. That's pure horsemanship.
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Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.
 
ycbm said:
Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.
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I like this, it sums up the 4 years of effort that has gone into a £200 special needs carthorse I have in my life.
 
ycbm said:
Hundreds of amateur, semi pro and lower than O'Brien pro trainers are doing exactly the same with the horses they own and train. Many on this forum. The difference is only that they are working with less physically talented horses. I reckon that it takes at least as much 'getting inside the horses head' to win at grass roots eventing on an ordinary riding horse as it does to get an elite bred horse to win a race.
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Are you really saying that in all seriousness Ybcm? You've got to be kidding me . Someone training a grassroots eventer is as good as Aidan O'Brien!??

Next you'll be telling us that you are:)
 
HashRouge said:
I'm finding aspects of your argument somewhat bizarre. Firstly, I don't see that it has a huge amount to do with the overall thread, which is not about whether or not the experts know what they are doing in order to succeed (which you seem to be most concerned with), but whether they are doing what is best for the horse's welfare. I'm sure we can all agree, whichever side of the fence we sit on, that success and equine welfare do not always go hand in hand. Yes the dressage trainer in question may know far more than anyone on this thread in terms of how to breed and produce a successful dressage horse, but that doesn't mean that what she is doing is necessarily the best thing for the welfare of the horses she produces. That is surely the key point here. And I don't particularly want to get drawn into the argument, so I'm not going to say what I personally think on the matter.

Secondly, I feel you are focusing too much on loose jumping and what horses do when left to their own devices. A lot of horses that go on to become superb show jumpers do not produce the perfect loose jump the first time they do it, nor do they jump fences for fun when loose in the paddock. They may not seem to like jumping or understand what it's all about. And I used to work with SJ horses, so I am speaking from experience. It is the training that is really important here, and the best trainers are the ones who can see past the messy first attempts at jumping to the talent underneath. Horses with the natural ability don't necessarily know how to use that ability without training, so there is no point reading too much into the loose jumping of an unbacked youngster unless it is truly shocking (though that is more to do with the natural ability not being there).

The idea that a two year old can be dismissed as an amateur ride because it found jumping a 1.30m spread stressful or whatever it is you said your friend does, is utterly bizarre to me. Goodness knows, my former boss is currently riding a superb six year old that he bred himself and I can tell you now that his early attempts at loose jumping produced some unfortunate results! Yet this is a horse that, currently, looks like he will be jumping 1.60m in the future. I really do find the idea of judging a two year old on how it jumps a 1.30m spread really strange. Don't forget that at two a lot of horses are legs all over the shop, and jumping a 1.30m spread is far harder than a little trot round the arena. I'm not saying no two year old could do it, but I suspect a lot of very talented ones wouldn't make a great job of it.
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We've different points of view and that's grand. I'm only telling you the training methods of one of Ireland's top producers of sport horses. The reason he's so successful is because horse welfare is a top priority - horses as I'm tired of saying are never forced in any way. Because that's how you get the best out of a horse.

You may be happy to discount this mans record sending horses to the world championships but most horse people would not.

The reason I brought up his methods is because this thread is about the wisdom or not of not of riding three yr-olds, he has a similar horse so it's entirely pertinent.

This is a person raised in a family of successful producers, that's where his knowledge comes from. As everyone knows you can't get the best out of a horse unless he is happy - kinda hard to square that with badly treated horses!

Not sure what your boss produces but unless they are intl 1.60m horses then we are probably comparing apples and oranges.
 
ycbm said:
Isn't that the point?
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So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.
 
popsdosh said:
So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.
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I don't think I've contradicted myself at all. If you can tell me which bit of what I've written you are struggling to understand, I'll gladly explain it again for you.
 
Tiddlypom said:
Can a horse grow out of dishing as it strengthens? Double Bubble throws his legs out like a mad thing, it would be very distracting from the overall impression no matter how elevated and wonderful he may be in other respects.
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Yes, horses will strengthen up and by the time they are working at advanced movements their movement will often be substantially different. But what you are focusing on, the dishing, is actually not particularly relevant in dressage; many top horses do not move straight in the way that a show horse is required to. What is asked of dressage horses is that they flex their joints, all of them, and show elevation, suppleness and expression: both of the Woodlander horses do this, the second horse (Double Bubble) particularly so.
 
Cortez said:
Yes, horses will strengthen up and by the time they are working at advanced movements their movement will often be substantially different. But what you are focusing on, the dishing, is actually not particularly relevant in dressage; many top horses do not move straight in the way that a show horse is required to. What is asked of dressage horses is that they flex their joints, all of them, and show elevation, suppleness and expression: both of the Woodlander horses do this, the second horse (Double Bubble) particularly so.
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In my humble amateur opinion I would suggest that yes, a show horse must move straight, as that is the physical construction that is most likely to allow the horse to move efficiently and to keep the horse sound. Show classes are all about improving the breed/type at the end of the day.
However, to be at the right end of the front row a show horse must show expression and personality and presence too. When you see the Welsh stallions at Royal Welsh for example they are really moving with phenomenal hock action.
 
my experience of loose jumping is that it not an predictor of future success, it shows a horse can get off the ground.

my stallion jumps obstacles of his own free will, i thought it amusing more than anything else.

i don`t feel i have missed any point, but was questioning the judgement of the trainer concerned, as showjumping is the ability to complete a set of obstacles with brings into play a range of qualities not evident when two years old.

i too am in awe of people who train horses without recourse to making profit from it, be it money or glory for themselves, there are many people who have succeeded with horses and no financial backing, getting inside a horse`s head is not the exclusive province of aidan o`brien, that is one
of the beauties of the horse world, the wonderful people you meet who truly love horses and probably know as much as any prof trainer.

`it is rare to see a rider who is passionate about the horse and his training.taking a profound interest in dressage with self-abnegation. and making this extra-ordinary subtle work one of the motivations of his life`

written by nuno oliviera
 
I am amazed that poor movment/lack of straightness can be discounted in high value animals. Seriously? I can see the lovely looseness and suppleness but straightness contributes to long term soundness.
 
popsdosh said:
So Science doesnt improve the horses lot then . You seem to be contradicting yourself. I can assure you whatever science that was used was to win races and not for the horses benefit. I thought you were trying to say that science would improve equine welfare . Either that or im not sure what work of fiction you have been reading.
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Of course it depends how the science is used and what it's intention was as to whether it improves things for the horse or as usual just generated more ££ for the people. That doesn't mean using science is inherently bad.

I'm also not sure about the 'horses are never forced' argument as that presumes the horse knows somewhat more than it is likely too.
 
ozpoz said:
I am amazed that poor movment/lack of straightness can be discounted in high value animals. Seriously? I can see the lovely looseness and suppleness but straightness contributes to long term soundness.
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It is received wisdom in this part of the world that straightness is supposed to equal soundness, just as deviations are supposed to equal unsoundness, but in practise that ain't necessarily so. Just as perfect conformation doesn't always mean a problem-free horse, and many a successful racehorse/jumper/etc. has poor conformation. I would say that in faster sports where horses are likely to knock into themselves, such as racing, eventing and hunting, a straight, low action is more desireable.

In other parts of the world it's a bit more "meh, not important", and having had Spanish horses for a long time, some with spectacular leg action, I've never had a problem traced to how they move.
 
There is always the exception that proves the rule.

I believe that dishing was bred into Andalusians, as it was seen as desirable.
 
ozpoz said:
There is always the exception that proves the rule.

I believe that dishing was bred into Andalusians, as it was seen as desirable.
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My understanding is that dishing is not considered a soundness issue as long as the foot hits the floor correctly. I still wouldn't buy one, though, I don't like the look of it and I'm not sure I trust them soundness wise. Are there any three or for star eventers or older chasers that dish? Anyone got a career hunter in its late teens that dishes? It would be interesting to know.
 
One of the big issues with bad dishers doing fast work is that they bang themselves and damage tendons and ligaments it's not just about how they place their feet on the ground .
I bought H with a dish now he's strong and developed its almost disappeared you really would have to watch him to see .
 
ycbm said:
My understanding is that dishing is not considered a soundness issue as long as the foot hits the floor correctly. I still wouldn't buy one, though, I don't like the look of it and I'm not sure I trust them soundness wise. Are there any three or for star eventers or older chasers that dish? Anyone got a career hunter in its late teens that dishes? It would be interesting to know.
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Yes there are a couple that when you watch them come down the centre line at Badminton that could have swam over ;) I can't name names off the top of my head but remember commenting on it at the time. But at the end of the day it's about their jump rather than their action.
I've had welshies / cob cross ponies that have gone and competed to a high level without it causing them a problem SJ but I find it hard to believe that it's a desirable trait in breeds where it's not bred in IYSWIM? I know in the PRE type breeds and to a degree in some of the more cob type breeds it's a breed type action but in the warmbloods which are descended from driving horses - where a high straight action was desirable I find it harder to accept.
 
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