Rising 3 year ridden at BEF show.

nikkimariet said:
Interestingly, I know far more dog or on/off lame horses used for leisure rather than those produced and ridden by professionals.
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Isn't that simply a matter of numbers. There are far more leisure horses than pro horses, so there will be more lame leisure horses than pro horses? Also a pro knows better than to bring obviously lame horses out into public view?
 
meleeka said:
They aren't physically ready for a rider at two, let alone mentally. Nobody doing this is thinking of the horses wellbeing.
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So because these and others who ride immature horses, are professionals, that makes them right, and everyone who has a different view wrong. I know an awful lot of professionals who would agree with my views entirely, including vets and welfare organisations.
 
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It might be worth remembering that many quarter horses (or similar stamp) in the US are broken at 2, ridden lightly at three ( but for a full summer) and in full work carrying a different sized western saddle and a fully grown adult at four, followed by years and years of carrying novices over sometimes incredibly tough terrain for months on end during the 'dude ranch' season. The place I went to had over 100 horses, 3/4 were over 15 years of age and have worked hard for their living. Mostly home bred and backed at 2! Sound, with incredibly clean legs and an incredibly positive attitude to work.
I fully understand it is different work, I fully understand individual concerns but I do not think it is possible or right to generalise about anything in the horse world.
 
PRofessional starters are skilled people breeding these types of horses are careful about who they use .
It's not the fact they are being paid it's the fact they are specialists and good at what they do .
The most unsound useless horse I bought was a very beautiful broken at five warm blood the toughest two whose history I know were broken at two go figure .
I had all points in between as well .
Other things I have discovered buying a fat young horse always goes wrong buying anything that has or might have hunting at three on its cv goes wrong ( for this reason I am very cautious about buying Irish hunters unless I can trace their history)
I think young horses who have had no or very little concerntrate and have grown up living in very big fields is the ideal .
Would I have my own youngbhorse out and about at the age that The horse OP describes no I would not but thats really not relevant .
We don't really know what drives that lameness issues in warmbloods is it barn living too little turnout or being fed to grow fast or is it work .
I know through that the worse thing that can ever happen to a youngster is for it to get fat that tops everything in the disaster stakes .
 
northernnewfiediva said:
It might be worth remembering that many quarter horses (or similar stamp) in the US are broken at 2, ridden lightly at three ( but for a full summer) and in full work carrying a different sized western saddle and a fully grown adult at four, followed by years and years of carrying novices over sometimes incredibly tough terrain for months on end during the 'dude ranch' season. The place I went to had over 100 horses, 3/4 were over 15 years of age and have worked hard for their living. Mostly home bred and backed at 2! Sound, with incredibly clean legs and an incredibly positive attitude to work.
I fully understand it is different work, I fully understand individual concerns but I do not think it is possible or right to generalise about anything in the horse world.
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Dude ranch horses are rarely expected to work in collection in small circles. They are allowed to work in a free frame and travel at easy paces.
 
Just to put this thought into peoples heads what is there to gain by these horses being pushed when they are not ready as from a grading point of view it would be suicide . To pass the grading they need to pass a 5 stage vetting with in excess of 20 x ray plates as well ,so please figure are the stallion owners really going to risk it as believe me the assessors at the gradings are looking for any excuse to fail a horse . Most of the haters on the H&H FB page to be honest just think its wrong because to them it is and no amount of common sense argument will change them. Each horse is an individual and needs treating as such but please have the grace to accept nobody is abusing their young stallion by riding them at that age as there is everything to lose and nothing to gain . They are professionals who know their job which includes when to back off with an individual if you dont like it change the system however thats not going to stop horses being backed as 2yos and a lot of them will be people who arent so caring maybe.
 
Casey76 said:
Dude ranch horses are rarely expected to work in collection in small circles. They are allowed to work in a free frame and travel at easy paces.
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Nothing on Saturday was working in small circles etc of the young stallions. I get the feeling some think this was a competition it wasnt
 
Where's the research, that's what I want?

The only piece I know of is what I quoted above, but all it tracked was whether the horses were still competing affiliated, so what happened to those who weren't? For all we know, they are doing fifty mile long distance rides every week.

We need some studies on working life of horses backed at various ages, with big numbers to average out different riders/techniques. Until we get that, this discussion will run on and on.
 
as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much, too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .
 
Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere. The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.
 
tristar said:
as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much, too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .
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I have not watched the video so can't comment .
However I would not be expecting a built very up hill youngster to be going with a lowered head soon after backing .
It takes a long time for very uphill horses to learn to stretch and it's damaging to push them to it so soon .
 
ycbm said:
Where's the research, that's what I want?

The only piece I know of is what I quoted above, but all it tracked was whether the horses were still competing affiliated, so what happened to those who weren't? For all we know, they are doing fifty mile long distance rides every week.

We need some studies on working life of horses backed at various ages, with big numbers to average out different riders/techniques. Until we get that, this discussion will run on and on.
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Who is going to do it and for what purpose and more importantly fund it ! It wont change anything! Its a bit like the poster who mentioned the research that was on about feeding youngstock the studs and pro breeders were always way ahead of that one. Funnily enough we were proved right by that study . It doesnt all need the research to tell you what you know is right for you. Realistically you can only ever rely on horses in afiliated competition to follow their careers and as you rightly say you need to know why they are not still doing it!
 
tristar said:
as others have said, at that age riding is a no no, but the frame in which they are presented? at that stage they need to have their head lower and to stretch forwards and not be put into an artificially advanced carriage to impress it appears the judges, it begs the question just how many horses the judges have broken and trained from scratch.

if i had to choose between some prof riders and a sensible everyday rider i would grab the everyday rider every time to work a young horse, too much, too soon, too demanding.

did they lunge them in very tight sidereins??????? the one looked upside down to me. in its back and neck.

not very lovely to look at .
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You too fallen into the trap it was not a competition ,no Judges!!
 
Goldenstar said:
I have not watched the video so can't comment .
However I would not be expecting a built very up hill youngster to be going with a lowered head soon after backing .
It takes a long time for very uphill horses to learn to stretch and it's damaging to push them to it so soon .
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Exactly these dressage youngsters are bred to be naturally uphill . lowering and stretching is the bit that would be damaging at that age.
 
popsdosh said:
Who is going to do it and for what purpose and more importantly fund it ! It wont change anything! Its a bit like the poster who mentioned the research that was on about feeding youngstock the studs and pro breeders were always way ahead of that one. Funnily enough we were proved right by that study . It doesnt all need the research to tell you what you know is right for you. Realistically you can only ever rely on horses in afiliated competition to follow their careers and as you rightly say you need to know why they are not still doing it!
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It does need research to tell me whether it is right or wrong to ride horses at that age. I wouldn't do it, but I don't know if that's right, it's just a gut feel.

We are turning out dozens of people a year doing theses in the last year of a degree. How about one of them, for a start?. Even a lightweight, questionnaire based study might reveal something.

Until we have research, there will be no end to this discussion. I don't understand why you think it wouldn't help.
 
AdorableAlice said:
Having watched the video of Double Bubble - what a fabulous name ! I would not care how old he is, ridden or not and regardless of his breeding or value, he moves so appallingly I would not consider him as a top class horse in any sphere. The creature would trip you up leading him to the school.
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I was beginning to think I was going crazy AA. Thank goodness you can see it too!
 
ycbm said:
I was beginning to think I was going crazy AA. Thank goodness you can see it too!
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He will strengthen of course, but will never move well. Having said that Dolendo moved badly and dressage is about correct training not being perfectly conformed.

I am a perfectionist (if I am spending money) when it comes to correct conformation and movement. Horses are such accident prone, awkward, breakable money pits that I think they need all the help they can get to stay sound from the moment they start life. So limbs that are balanced and go in the correct direction seems a sensible place to start when viewing horses to buy.
 
ycbm said:
It does need research to tell me whether it is right or wrong to ride horses at that age. I wouldn't do it, but I don't know if that's right, it's just a gut feel.

We are turning out dozens of people a year doing theses in the last year of a degree. How about one of them, for a start?. Even a lightweight, questionnaire based study might reveal something.

Until we have research, there will be no end to this discussion. I don't understand why you think it wouldn't help.
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How do you suggest it can be done . How many people with a horse that was purchased will know the true!!( not what they think or been told) age it was backed and how many pros actually know or indeed care where or what the horses are doing. The issue would be finding a representative sample. Who would fund it? from experience most last year degree students carry out their research on here and dont think even you would feel that was representative a cross section. I never get involved in them as lifes to short when your busy.Lets face it a lot of them are skewed in their questions anyhow I would not trust the conclusions.
I think you will find there is research within the racing industry as its about the only place you can follow a horses career with any certainty.
 
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i was talking about dressage judges in general.

and the stretching forward or seeking the bit is what i meant, NOT working round or low, they should be ridden in a NATURAL outline at the newly backed and ridden away stage, but perhaps they are not newly backed, maybe they have been ridden for some time.

and for f sake what do people expect them to look like when ridden at that age? to critique the poor horses when they are in such a growing baby stage is unjust.

they are not uphill at that stage, they are all over the place, that`s why they are dropping the back and lacking in balance, young horses should be ridden with their head in a place most comfortable to them to enable them to find their balance under the rider in with a natural head carriage.
 
eggs said:
Having lived abroad in two different countries I have certainly experienced that what we do in the UK is not necessarily the same as what is done in different countries - and I'm not even talking about horses. Does it make the UK wrong and the other country right? Does it make the other country wrong and the UK right?

To answer those people who seem to think that it is 'just' a money making exercise by the stud there is precious little - if any - profit to be made from breeding. Those that do have foals to sell often bemoan that people don't want to pay reasonable money for them. I have bred a number of warmblood foals from graded stallions at both continental based and UK based studs purely for myself with no intention to sell and reckon it has cost at least £2,500 to get a foal on the floor.

Rightly or wrongly studs run as a business and their 'assets' do need to show some return so keeping a colt/stallion for an extra year does incur additional cost.

I personally am a little uneasy at backing them as a rising three year old but don't necessarily subscribe to the view that it is entirely wrong. I actually have a bigger issue with the fillies being put in foal at 2.
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We're not talking getting foals on the ground though, surely most of the money comes from stud fees to outside mares? This horse is currently £700 ungraded

crabbymare said:
In german registries the stallion cannot have offspring registered in the "full" studbook before it has its performance test which means any offspring from insemination before it has passed will not be eligible for grading etc. its not possible to have them retrospectively entered so if they are to be used they do need to be performance tested. its not a case of being able to charge more its the registration that needs to be taken into consideration as well even though the offspring will be dna tested and have full breeding known.
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Thanks CM appreciate you clarifying that makes more sense, as much as anything then your stallion will be more desirable if graded because of the possibility of registering offspring.
 
AdorableAlice said:
He will strengthen of course, but will never move well. Having said that Dolendo moved badly and dressage is about correct training not being perfectly conformed.

I am a perfectionist (if I am spending money) when it comes to correct conformation and movement. Horses are such accident prone, awkward, breakable money pits that I think they need all the help they can get to stay sound from the moment they start life. So limbs that are balanced and go in the correct direction seems a sensible place to start when viewing horses to buy.
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I know but often the soundest horses are put together out of the odds and ends box.
 
popsdosh said:
I know but often the soundest horses are put together out of the odds and ends box.
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The balance of probabilities I guess.

I met a horse yesterday that was the weediest poorly conformed creature imaginable. It is now a much loved low level pleasure horse. It was a flat horse and has won 150k.
 
"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and more about the hind end than the front.
 
Cortez said:
"Good" movement for dressage horses is not the same as movement for show horses. In the show ring it's all about how straight a horse moves, for dressage the main thing is the expression and flexion, and more about the hind end than the front.
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I did cover that in my comment.
 
When I spent my time with top class dressage horses I was amazed how relaxed they were about horses who swung their legs .
I came from a hunting background and there straightness equals long term soundness .
 
i have a horse whose piddly little movement was commented on by people at 4 years, he is now 16 and his movement is huge and stunning.

dressage horses do not move parts in isolation, they are a whole unit, until every part is in play the full potential of the horse can not be shown, someone, somewhere was saying that it takes 8 years to train a horse, i agree there is a lot of truth in that.

the stallions i have liked the most, and watched perform, and would have bred from, have all been outstanding in some way, and very good confo, some were x rayed with excellent ratings, the performers i liked best were the best made horses.
 
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