Rollkur/Hyperflexion

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ShowjumpingPrincess

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Hi!

My family have quite a lot of sport horses (various disciplines though most of my ponies are show jumpers.) with all our dressage horses we work them using Hyperflexion (not the really extreme stuff, but so that they are behind the vertical with their heads low and in) we don't make them touch their chests with their noses or anything, but we do get them quite far back. They don't seem unhappy at all about it and we only ever do it using a snaffle bit and we have even done it with a hackamore! None of the horses have ever experienced problems as a result of this and the results are really effective! One horse was so badly behaved that the owner was going to have it put to sleep and using Hyperflexion we have got it working really well. Our horses all enjoy their work and we never use draw reins or side reins to make them stay in the Hyperflexion position unless we are lunging (and we always use elasticated ones)

Quite a few people on the show circuit have been really sceptical about it and the other day a group of girls said that I torture horses and were telling everyone that I abuse my ponies! Plus, they did all his AFTER I had gone and beaten them in their class! I don't even use Hyperflexion on my show jumpers!

WHAT DO I DO? is Hyperflexion really that bad??
 
Everyone has their own opinons about it personally i would never put a horse in rollkur/hyperflexion. it's cruel and i don't think it looks pretty of makes the horse work better. i can only see cons not pros


when you say :

with all our dressage horses we work them using Hyperflexion (not the really extreme stuff, but so that they are behind the vertical with their heads low and in) we don't make them touch their chests with their noses or anything, but we do get them quite far back.


how far is quite far back ? as far as i'm aware if there behind the vertical it is rollkur/hyperflexion. i could be wrong so feel free to correct me
 
No it's horrendous! A horse would not choose to go naturally in 'hyperflexion' therefore you are forcing your horse to do so. Whether it's in a snaffle bit or not, I know on my loan horse I'd have to do a fair lot of pulling and sawing to get her to 'hyperflex'. It's cruel no matter what bit you do it in.
 
I have enough trouble getting mine on the vertical, let alone attempting any sort of rollkur! To her, working in a correct outline *is* hyperflexion :D
 
I don't saw on horses mouths! It's not that hard to do hyper flexion if you make your horse flexible enough! (though some horses just can't do it) it's not a wind up and i don't see why it's so cruel!
 
You shouldn't go around beating people in classes. It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.

:)
 
Alaadin said:
No it's horrendous! A horse would not choose to go naturally in 'hyperflexion' therefore you are forcing your horse to do so. Whether it's in a snaffle bit or not, I know on my loan horse I'd have to do a fair lot of pulling and sawing to get her to 'hyperflex'. It's cruel no matter what bit you do it in.
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No horse would 'naturally' choose to jump over fences, no horse would naturally choose to have a rider on it's back, no horse would naturally choose to go in a flat out gallop over miles for a race, no horse would choose to pull a carriage. I never have to do any sawing! All you have to do is wiggle the reins to get it in that position and then just be constantly giving the horse gentle wiggles to get it to stay there. I have only ever seen one horse object to it and it soon accepted and went softly.
 
JFTD said:
You shouldn't go around beating people in classes. It's just not on - sickening violence is never acceptable - the BS rule about how many times you can hit your horse in a round should apply equally to you using it on other competitiors too.

:)
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As an aside, I accidentally managed to have half my friends think we had a mad racist uncle. Because they overheard me talking to my mum on the phone about "Reg the Pole basher". Took a bit of explanation that Reg was a horse prone to knocking down fences, not a man prone to racially aggravated attacks :D
 
Polarskye - just spat wine out my nose lol :D

Stupid question really - ofc its THAT bad - its banned in BD for a reason. And continuously "wiggling" the reins to get your horse to hyperflex is forcing and sawing imo :)
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
What are you talking about?
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You said in your OP you'd just beaten your little friends around an sj course :)

Hey, if you're going to post mental threads about banned practices, the rest of us can wilfully misinterpret your comments for our own entertainment! :D


Lolo, that's brilliant :D No more pole bashing for Racist Reg, then!
 
galaxy said:
This has to be a wind up

but just in case.

OP. Rollkur/hyperflexion in BANNED BD. So if you compete you'd better watch out.

It is cruel and is for a reason because it has negative effects on the horse. You only have to google to find out why, but this is just a starter

http://www.sustainabledressage.net/rollkur/why_not.php
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hyperflexion is banned in warm up and during competition, but no one can do anything about it when you are at home. Anky Van Gruvsen uses hyperflexion and look how much she has achieved.
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
i don't see why it's so cruel!
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Simply telling you it's cruel isn't going to make you change your approach but what I would suggest is you read up on it, listen to the opinion of people you respect and trust and watch lots of videos and good riders in action (you may already be doing all these things?). In short, educate yourself and then make an informed decision. If you then decide to continue as you are, you will at least have taken a considered approach as to your way of schooling and will be more certain that you're doing the best thing by your horse/s.
 
JFTD said:
You said in your OP you'd just beaten your little friends around an sj course :)

Hey, if you're going to post mental threads about banned practices, the rest of us can wilfully misinterpret your comments for our own entertainment! :D


Lolo, that's brilliant :D No more pole bashing for Racist Reg, then!
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i meant that i had come in at a higher placing in the competition than them (i came second and they were unplaced/lower placed)
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
i meant that i had come in at a higher placing in the competition than them (i came second and they were unplaced/lower placed)
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Think she understood, OP, she was being facetious ;)

Would never personally hyperflex a horse, or let the kids do it. Even if this horse happened to be an acrobat with plenty of physio. You can't have it in a 'happy' contact if you're behind the vertical.
Think about it this way - let's say you're in a dressage test, you're cantering a 20m circle and it says give and re-take rein over X. The judges will be looking for the horse to stay in the same outline as it was before. This is because the horse, who is hopefully 'on' the vertical, is in a comfortable position, there is no need for it to shove its head up, as it was never uncomfortable. If you had the horse behind the vertical, and you gave the rein, it would immediately come out from that position. Even if you think your horses are happy in hyperflexion, I'm sure, given half a chance by you giving the reins, that it would release itself from that position.

But that's just my opinion :)
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Simply telling you it's cruel isn't going to make you change your approach but what I would suggest is you read up on it, listen to the opinion of people you respect and trust and watch lots of videos and good riders in action (you may already be doing all these things?). In short, educate yourself and then make an informed decision. If you then decide to continue as you are, you will at least have taken a considered approach as to your way of schooling and will be more certain that you're doing the best thing by your horse/s.
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thank you for being the first person to not immediately jump to conclusions! believe it or not, i do not agree with making a horse touch its chest with its nose while foaming at the mouth and struggling to breathe, i do work "behind the vertical" though and the horses do not feel or look like they are at all in pain. i do not agree with other things such as rapping, extensive use of the whip and i am a keep supporter of natural horsemanship (eg- join up, clicker training ,using reward rather than punishment, bitless bridles,bareback ect) x
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
No horse would 'naturally' choose to jump over fences, no horse would naturally choose to have a rider on it's back, no horse would naturally choose to go in a flat out gallop over miles for a race, no horse would choose to pull a carriage. I never have to do any sawing! All you have to do is wiggle the reins to get it in that position and then just be constantly giving the horse gentle wiggles to get it to stay there. I have only ever seen one horse object to it and it soon accepted and went softly.
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I cannot agree that a horse would not naturally choose to jump. My three year old Shagya filly, turned loose in the school, with one single jump, will jump it again and again from both directions.

My 34 year old driving horse loves to jump, again if I put him in the school with a single jump and ask him to jump he will do just that, no whip, no lunge.

I purchased a 3 year old Cleveland Bay filly sold to make 15.1hh. I did not have room for her at home so she was kept at a local stud. The owner's dogs scared her one day so she TROTTED up to the metal gate about 1.2metres and popped it with effortless ease. She could have hooned round the field. He was speechless.
 
willtowin said:
Think she understood, OP, she was being facetious ;)

Would never personally hyperflex a horse, or let the kids do it. Even if this horse happened to be an acrobat with plenty of physio. You can't have it in a 'happy' contact if you're behind the vertical.
Think about it this way - let's say you're in a dressage test, you're cantering a 20m circle and it says give and re-take rein over X. The judges will be looking for the horse to stay in the same outline as it was before. This is because the horse, who is hopefully 'on' the vertical, is in a comfortable position, there is no need for it to shove its head up, as it was never uncomfortable. If you had the horse behind the vertical, and you gave the rein, it would immediately come out from that position. Even if you think your horses are happy in hyperflexion, I'm sure, given half a chance by you giving the reins, that it would release itself from that position.

But that's just my opinion :)
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you can actually make a horse go in the hyperflexion position using a carrot! (try it) hyperflexion is not allowed in BD so we dont use it during competition so your point doesnt really matter (sorry)x
 
Rollin said:
I cannot agree that a horse would not naturally choose to jump. My three year old Shagya filly, turned loose in the school, with one single jump, will jump it again and again from both directions.

My 34 year old driving horse loves to jump, again if I put him in the school with a single jump and ask him to jump he will do just that, no whip, no lunge.

I purchased a 3 year old Cleveland Bay filly sold to make 15.1hh. I did not have room for her at home so she was kept at a local stud. The owner's dogs scared her one day so she TROTTED up to the metal gate about 1.2metres and popped it with effortless ease. She could have hooned round the field. He was speechless.
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ok, so maybe some horses choose to jump, but some horses also choose to hyperflex:

http://www.horsehero.com/resource/2...food-in-my-view-that-says-it-all-.250.212.jpg
 
Hyperflexing for an instant whilst standing still to receive a treat is one thing. Holding his/herself in that position whilst working (walk/trot/canter) is entirely different and most probably incredibly uncomfortable for said horse
 
ShowjumpingPrincess said:
you can actually make a horse go in the hyperflexion position using a carrot! (try it) hyperflexion is not allowed in BD so we dont use it during competition so your point doesnt really matter (sorry)x
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Yes, for a second - that's not 15 minutes of being held into place though. And again, I was hypothetically speaking - I wasn't suggesting you do that for a test. I was trying to send home the fact that the reason a horse shouldn't move in that situation is because it should be COMFORTABLE in the contact that it's in. If the horse is unhappy, it will move. Conclusion: having your horse in a rollkur position is uncomfortable. Hope that I'm clearer this time...
 
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