Rollkur/Hyperflexion

OP, if you are talking about a level of work such as PS is demonstrating in her photos, what ARE you on about? That's not hyperflexion. That's not even particularly extreme LDR. Plus what is with the waggling hand business? Have you read any of the work by people who actually use hyperflexion as a training tool? (For that matter, have many people in this discussion?) I'm not advocating it but you think you'd learn a bit about the history and theory of a practice you are promoting (or condemning, for that matter).
 
:confused: what an odd child you seem to be OP..

Hyperflexion can actually cause an almost 'kissing spines' situation in the 2-4 vertebra in the neck as the tissue and ligaments start to tear and the vertebrae work and rub against each other, bony changes occur and it is paaaaaainful. But nooooo Anky does it so it must be fine!

I trained with an olympic showjumper at one point and yes he got results but i would much rather have to plod on a hack for the rest of my life than use his tactics and training to get to the top...just because it works, doesn't mean it's right.

I'm choosing to ignore the fact that you think that hunting is worse than hyperflexion as it just shows more of your complete ignorance.

I think you probably need to do some reading up around the sport and inform and educate yourself a little better as the people around you obviously aren't going to teach you correctly.
 
Valegro is the best, trained correctly and get the same scores as Totilas, even set a new world record. Totilas has sunk to the bottom of the sea and I don't think we'll be hearing much of him anymore.

You're a strange one, arguing most of the time, like a little child not getting it's way.
 
Hunting in the form done today is not banned....

Anyway if you are only doing what PS is doing than that is NOT hyperflexion, just going a bit over bent which is not cruel or harmful so there's no need for you to keep arguing for rolkur because you don't use it anyway!

Still not convinced this thread is genuine.
 
Doesn't really matter if it's genuine though, it's an interesting discussion. :)

I'm curious to see the supporting studies for hyperflexion causing kissing spines. (Other than GH's work.) I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, and I can completely understand the reasoning, just curious to see the science.

I think it's good to question what we do with horses, to examine other practices and observe the effects. I do think, however, we also have to turn the spotlight on our own commonly held beliefs as well, not just blindly believe whomever wins ribbons or yells the loudest.
 
Not going to comment on the RK/HF aspects because it's been said, but thought I'd throw my oar in about the "world record" bit: it always strikes me as meaningless talking about records in a discipline where marks are awarded with a great deal of subjectivity. Even in sports where the result is measured in absolutes (as in, how many cm tall the obstacle is), comparison of records over time is problematic in many disciplines, due to evolving technology of the equipment/different surfaces, etc., which to me suggests that it's hard to compare the actual athletic achievement unless you're comparing the relative performance of two athletes over a range of competitions, preferably ones where both athletes competed at the same competition.

In a subjectively-scored discipline such as dressage, we know that priorities and fashions change and judging criteria are adjusted, as is the weighting of different elements in a test. To speak of "world records" in such a context is meaningless.
 
TarrSteps said:
Doesn't really matter if it's genuine though, it's an interesting discussion. :)

I'm curious to see the supporting studies for hyperflexion causing kissing spines. (Other than GH's work.) I'm not saying it does or it doesn't, and I can completely understand the reasoning, just curious to see the science.

I think it's good to question what we do with horses, to examine other practices and observe the effects. I do think, however, we also have to turn the spotlight on our own commonly held beliefs as well, not just blindly believe whomever wins ribbons or yells the loudest.
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I think it will be very difficult to prove rollkur causes KS , many many horses get KS and most of them will never have had any trainning useing this method.
There are older horses with very high mileage doing top level dressage who everyone know are trained using this method.
You do need to question everything that's how you learn and develop the systems you use a few years ago I was a clinic with a high level trainer there where about six of us in the school and I was riding a difficult project who was backed at ten having been driven before hand .
The trainer had me working very LDR and someone asked is that rollkur .
The trainer paused and said not really then asked if I minded if he got me to work the horse into the rollkur postions he took us through the system briefly of course but at no time did it stress the horse it was not forceful and I had normal contact throughout , however bred for driving this horse had conformation that makes it physically very easy to go into that position my OH ID for instance would find it very difficult and unpleasant .
It was a thought provoking session it's easy to get sucked in to the hype on both sides of these debates any form of training system can be unpleasant for the horse if applied unsympathetically .
 
amymay said:
Yep. I wasn't referring to Edward Gal.
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Who were you referring to?

My theory on KS and things like PSD is that they have always been around, and it is also in leisure horses, but it was never diagnosed in the past. I think it is not just that our demands on the horse have increased, it is that the diagnosing skills and knowledge of the things like KS has increased and therefore more horses now have it, when probably they always had it.

And with leisure horses that are just hacked in straight lines and on uneven terrain it is really hard to spot these very subtle nuances in gait that can be the first clue to something like PSD.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think Amymay was saying the horse was happy and confident when trained in the system he was used to and understood .
He certainly did not look confident in the system used after he was sold.
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So rolkur used by one person is OK, but not by another?
 
I read it that amymay was referring to the footage of the horse in young horse classes before he went to Edward Gal....
 
TuscanBunnyGirl said:
:confused: what an odd child you seem to be OP..

I trained with an olympic showjumper at one point and yes he got results but i would much rather have to plod on a hack for the rest of my life than use his tactics and training to get to the top...just because it works, doesn't mean it's right.
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Haha - these two points exactly. OP you asked for our opinions - if you can't take the heat, get out of the spotlight so to say - we can't help it if you don't like our opinions.

And to the second point - this is exactly true. I'm sure that rapping would make a horse more careful. But is it right - NO. It's cruel! And the horse will lose its confidence, and worry - so it won't be happy/comfortable/everything I said in my previous posts. In the same way that you can win by cheating - sure you can. But that doesn't make it right. And before you kick up a fuss, OP, I did not accuse you of cheating. I was drawing parallels.
 
Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking.

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious.

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .;)
 
TarrSteps said:
Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking.

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious.

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .;)
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On the calmer that's an interesting grey area , using say valerian is cheating as it is a sedative but giving magnesium oxide based products because horses are often short of magnesium in there diets if working and hard and getting most of their food from grazing a lot is a much more difficult one.
Some horses are considerably calmed by mag ox.
 
TarrSteps said:
Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking.

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious.

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .;)
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Absolutely agree.
 
Setting aside the rather inflammatory style of the OP, this is an interesting discussion - just to add a further dimension - what if you have a horse who does this (assumes a Rollkur-type position) by itself? Kal does this - curls right behind the bit even with no rein contact and going forward - it is clearly an evasion and sometimes we worry that he will knee himself in the jaw! He is never pinned in and is always ridden leg/seat into hand (or an "open" contact). An onlooker catching a glance could conclude that we practice Rollkur - which couldn't be further from the truth.

I suppose the point I am trying to make is that what you see isn't necessarily what you think you see . . . and every horse is different.

Oh and if anyone has any advice on how to encourage Kal not to do this, that would be great :).

P
 
The definition difference between low, deep & round and "rollkur" is a VERY grey area indeed. Nose in front of vertical can be stiff, wooden, on the forehand, and damaging to the horse just as well as a soft, flexible, supple, happy, bendy horse can work in a very beneficial way behind the vertical. For the sake of steering this away from dressage for a moment - look at some of the world leading show jumpers - Ludger Beerbaums horses definitely don't work in a classical, nose on the vertical fashion, but look at the power, suppleness and flexibility... It is too difficult to be categorical about these things.

Also - as far as I know, Totilas was the best dressage horse in the world when rollkur-ed by Edward Gal, and it all went wrong when he was sold to germany where he was initially trained with the more traditional German scales of training. (There is a very good video somewhere called "The Taming of Totilas" which discusses all this). Not saying right or wrong - just that it isn't in my opinion possible to categorically state one or the other. And of course not everyone has the hands and riding skills of Edward Gal - but equally I don't prefer seeing a stiff, hollow horse with a rider bouncing right on its spine just because it is the more preferred way of going in a Prelim dressage test...
 
I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.
 
Adding on the discussion, my youngster doesn't really go in an outline and any pressure on his mouth makes him look like a giraffe. I don't understand how Rollkur is achieved without artifical aids? The only way I could get his head to his chest would be to tie it there using draw/side reins. I've never read up about Rollkur so I don't know how they manage to make them do it, is it through a strong bit and sawing hands?
 
slumdog said:
Adding on the discussion, my youngster doesn't really go in an outline and any pressure on his mouth makes him look like a giraffe. I don't understand how Rollkur is achieved without artifical aids? The only way I could get his head to his chest would be to tie it there using draw/side reins. I've never read up about Rollkur so I don't know how they manage to make them do it, is it through a strong bit and sawing hands?
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it can be done with a snaffle and we never use draw reins or side reins other than lungine. the only training aids we EVER use while riding is the john whitaker training reins and a market harborough(i prefer these as they are fixed so are controlled by the horse, not the riders hands.)
 
Pinkvboots said:
I have a warmblood mare with bony changes in the poll she cannot stand any poll pressure at all she will go nuts, physio thinks this could have been caused by hyperflexion performed at a very young age, when I first got her she would be very sensitive in the school and often get quite distressed, out hacking she is a totally different horse, which makes me think most of her discomfort stems from being in a menage being schooled, she trusts me now but she can be very sensitive and has to be ridden with real care, this horse just screams out that someone has ridden her really harsh and has caused pain and she has not forgotten.

So I for one do not agree with hyperflexion or rollkur, my horses are ridden in a classical way nothing is forced and they are both happy to be ridden in an outline without force or bullying.
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a horse isn't really 'finished' dressage wise (can walk,trot,canter nicely, do flying change and able to collect and lengthen its stride) until it is around five, and this is not what i would class as a 'youngster'. we never would work a horse using this method whether we have bred it ourselves or bought it already started until it is at this age. some horses we buy that were started late don't have this method until they are 7 years old which is definitely not a youngster! it all depends on what stage of training the horse is at but we would never do it to break in a horse.
 
TarrSteps said:
Re rapping, a very prominent sj trainer discussed and demonstrated it in a public clinic recently, making the point that if someone is using such methods without understanding they will almost certainly result in disaster but that skilled horsemen do use them successfully. This is not to say they SHOULD or that you have to agree, but to say that it always destructive or intended as abuse is simply not true. Also, I don't think you can pick a horse it's been used on out of the line up just by looking.

Again, NOT defending, just saying it's really easy to make these blanket judgements and possibly ignore practices that are just as suspect but don't look so obvious.

Btw, in the discussion of cheating, anyone using any kind of calmer is TECHNICALLY cheating. We also have no idea if there are long term repercussions from using them as the work has never been done. . .;)
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Rapping is stupid and it just puts horses off jumping. I would never use it! IT DOESN'T WORK!! anyone that thinks a horse would work better by having a pole painfully rapped against its legs shouldn't be around horses! But hyperflexion does have benefits!
 
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