RSPCA originally formed by pro hunt Conservative MP

[SarahColeman]

You really do pick the bits you respond to don't you !

Shall I try again - the RSPCA deal with Animal Welfare if they are handed evidence of an offence impacting on animal welfare then they should consider whether they or the CPS should bring a prosecution. If they are handed evidence of something not related to animal welfare then they should pass it straight over to the Police/CPS for further evidence gathering and potential prosecution.

No I do not pick anything thank you. The RSPCA were handed evidence of illegal hunting of a wild animal, they ALWAYS investigate. They can not hand it to the CPS only the police can. The police as clearly pointed out in Parliament are in no position to investigate this sort of crime on such a large scale ONLY the RSPCA are capable. What on earth should the RSPCA have done. Ignored the law breaking?! The RSPCA did the job they do every single day but once, just this once according to you they did wrong. Please tell me why? What one single reason should they not have acted normally because of???????????????????????????????????

 

[SarahColeman]

Can I just check with you Lizzie about the RSPCA 'should', do this and 'should', do that. According to who exactly?

 

[combat_claire]

No I do not pick anything thank you.

So come on then, answer my questions why it is okay to chase a mammal with two hounds but not with three? Why the American Mink has not been exempted from the legislation and why the Deer Casualty Service searching for deer injured in road traffic accidents are not exempt from the two hound rule when using the whole pack would allow the huntsman to reach the injured deer more quickly and thus end its suffering more quickly.

 

[Countryman]

SarahColeman, according to your logic it seems you'd be fine with hunt supporters running sabs over in their cars? If it was done on private land (a farm track) for instance, and they had their radios with them? Sabs can be pretty scary after all. And ofc if they were blocking the track? Which they might well be, to film/intimidate the car occupants.

 

[Alec Swan]

Hey, hang a minute, I know you're direct but don't think I've ever heard you so rude.

I'm opting out of this because reason and debate has left the building.

I didn't consider that I was being particularly rude, but discussion with someone who thinks on their feet and argues their case on an ad-hoc basis that lacks any form of reason, is frustrating. It's like arguing with a child who insists that they're right, despite the most compelling evidence to the contrary.

I also notice that SarahC has gone dark. Nothing to do with me. I have a self imposed rule that I don't tell tales, no matter the provocation. I did warn her, but as with some, she wouldn't listen. Never mind, perhaps when she returns she'll be a little more circumspect.

I suspect that this thread has run its course, most of us have had our say, several times over in my case, but as we argue, there are times when points are made, and accepted. This isn't one of those occasions. Within this argument (hardly a debate), views are so entrenched that on a generally pro hunting forum, apart from mischief making, I fail to see what the anti would hope to achieve.

If I've caused offence, in any way, I apologise.

Alec.

 

[JanetGeorge]

I find it extremely distasteful that you are trying to point score over this man's tragic death. You KNOW what the facts are and yet you try to distort the facts from the court case for your own ends.

There is much more I could say about this incident, but respect for the grief of his family and the trauma of those involved, prevents me from doing so.

Oh dear, do you? Yes, I KNOW what the facts are, both from the day of Trevor Morse's death AND from the incidents leading up to it - and I have not been guilty of any distortion - nor have I shown anything but total respect for Trevor Morse and his family and his close friends. UNLIKE some of the anti posters on this forum who have showed TOTAL disrespect and a total lack of concern for the death of a decent and well-liked countryman!

I'll admit I have shown little respect for the pilot - who acted (at least) irresponsibly on numerous occasions leading up to the tragedy - nor for his companion who deserves none!

 

[Simsar]

You and he should be ashamed of yourselves killing a fox in such a way but you are obviously not. Don't tell me. the law forces you to do this?!

The accosting of the pilot/copter was pre-planned before the days hunting. Yes, the poor pilot who will always suffer following that day and should never have been forced into any actions by Mr.Morse.

DOUBLE STANDARDS?

Why is it an anti can be forced to action but a pro can't?

Give em just enough rope....................

 

[Lizzie66]

Can I just check with you Lizzie about the RSPCA 'should', do this and 'should', do that. According to who exactly?

According to them, Quote from their website "We offer advice on caring for all animals and campaign to change laws that will protect them, which we will enforce through prosecution".

So they will prosecute under laws that relate to animal welfare, especially laws that they have had a hand in developing. As previously stated (and agreed by yourself) the hunting act is not about animal welfare.

 

[Fellewell]

If you notice, they answer every single post, usually with wild accusations.

Equally, as proven in their ability to argue with most posts, they clearly can't have much of a life either lol..

Well that certainly explains why they seem incapable of grasping a simple concept. However, I think for the benefit of the wider society it is better if they stay indoors.

One of them is going to be a lot quieter that's for sure

 

[Hunters]

Fellewell - you post as if you know something ..,,,

 

[Alec Swan]

There's a bloke called Mike Swan (no relation), who's Head of Education for the GWCT. He's written a letter to the Shooting Times, claiming the following;

"I was also surprised to read that the rspca's preferred method of despatch of a cage-trapped squirrel, is lethal injection, by a vet".

Two points here; firstly the obvious, that the stress to the animal whilst being transported and subsequently handled would be such that no one with any interest in animal welfare would countenance such conduct, and secondly, it would also put the holder in contravention of the law, being in unlicensed possession of a live squirrel!

Do the rspca employ anyone who vets their daft statements, I wonder?

Alec.

 

[MillyMoomie]

Alec you need to do your research.
Natural England specifically state that the short term possession and transport of a grey squirrel in order to take to a place where humane destruction can be obtained does not require a license.
Also, how would YOU advise a Humane method of destruction other than injection by a vet? I'm interested?!

 

[Simsar]

Shoot them and stop wasting meat.........

http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.424555810926280.94531.100001155936176&type=3

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec you need to do your research.
Natural England specifically state that the short term possession and transport of a grey squirrel in order to take to a place where humane destruction can be obtained does not require a license.
Also, how would YOU advise a Humane method of destruction other than injection by a vet? I'm interested?!

Priceless, thank you!

Your question is ill-deserving of a reply. Would you care so little for the well being of the transported squirrel that you would have it endure a journey to a vet, for it to be handled, and then sent of to heaven in a lovely fluffy fashion? If you are so convinced that your charity's stance is correct, you've yet to grasp the concept of "Animal Welfare".

What is a lethal injection? More to the point, how would you have your charitable vet administer such an injection? Check with them first, and come back to me. Your reply should be of interest!

Alec.

 

[cptrayes]

I do agree with Alec that it would be far more humane to pick the creature up and break its neck than to transport it to a vet for a vet to find a vein on an unfamiliar wild animal and stop its heart.

 

[cptrayes]

Alec you need to do your research.
Natural England specifically state that the short term possession and transport of a grey squirrel in order to take to a place where humane destruction can be obtained does not require a license.
Also, how would YOU advise a Humane method of destruction other than injection by a vet? I'm interested?!

Milliemoonie, "humane" is anything which is quick and painless. Wringing its neck, shooting it at close range, cutting off its head with one stroke of a very sharp knife are all humane ways to kill a small animal.

 

[MillyMoomie]

Alec you are priceless. Yet again your reaction to being priced wrong is to just be insulting.

IF you actually read my post without embellishing it with your own imagination you will see that I mentioned nothing of the welfare aspect of transporting a wild animal, I simply corrected you in your misinformed allegation.

THEN I asked you a question. Again mentioning nothing of my opinion or thoughts on PTS by injection administered by a vet.

Alec try and behave like a gentleman occasionally. I know it must be difficult for you to be corrected, but us humans are very occasionally wrong.

Have you researched Natural England yet and your license allegation?? ;-)

 

[MillyMoomie]

cptrayes you are correct in your definition of a 'humane' destruction. In consequence I agree. But as I have just explained to the reasonable Alec Swan, my opinion was not relevant in this instance. My point is, just because you, I and indeed Alec are comfortable in our ability to humanely dispatch a squirrel. Can everybody be so confidant? I don't think so, in that case what other method would there be available?

 

[Countryman]

I should think most squirrels in traps get drowned in waterbutts. Not as humane as the above methods, but still I reckon more humane than transporting it to a vets.

 

[MillyMoomie]

Countryman drowning is illegal and has already been proven to cause unnecessary suffering. Careful what advise you give!

 

[Countryman]

Unsure about its illegality. Yes one person has once been fined for it but I think it might not count as unnecessary suffering if there was a proper court battle over it. It certainly hasn't been proven to cause unnecessary suffering.

 

[MillyMoomie]

A chap in court has already admitted causing unnecessary suffering by drowning a squirrel. All I'm saying is that until drowning is proven to be an acceptable humane way of destroying an animal people should use the accepted methods only.

 

[Nancykitt]

I didn't think that Countryman was 'giving advice' - merely stating what does happen on occasions.

And while we're on the subject of grey squirrels - while waiting to set off on a drag hunt a few years ago I was in a pub car park with the rest of the field, the huntsman, hounds and the masters. Someone's dog (as in a member of the public) got hold of a grey squirrel in a shrubbery area and immediately the hounds were there. The whole episode from start to finish must have taken a couple of seconds at the most.

Now this was most definitely an accident. It is not ideal and in no way am I giving advice or suggesting that a good way to control grey squirrels is to take hounds into pub car parks (or any other space with that intent). All I am saying is that the whole thing was so incredibly fast that there is no doubt in my mind that this was a far less stressful end for this particular wild animal compared to be trapped and transported.

 

[Alec Swan]

Alec you are priceless. Yet again your reaction to being priced wrong is to just be insulting.

,.......

I apologise if you found me insulting or offensive. That wasn't my intention.

Perhaps if I were to approach this from another direction, you may see how my frustration forms. When there are those who quote the rspca, as chapter and verse, and in a fashion which would belie common sense, then I find that remaining calm and patient is something of a test!!

Let me explain, if you'd posted something along the lines of;

"Can someone explain to me the likely events of how a cage trapped squirrel would be euthanised by lethal injection, and by a competent vet", Then the reply from most would have been something along the lines of;

"The squirrel, within its cage, would be put into a car, and taken to a, probably bemused, vet. This is where the fun (sic) starts! Cage traps have a large front entrance door, and a gloved hand would have to be inserted into this door, whilst being certain that the squirrel doesn't bolt back past the gloved hand, and fly about around the surgery. Ordinary welders gloves MAY be good enough to protect the vet from being bitten, and the problem with such gloves is that if they are thick enough to protect the hand then they are going to be incredibly clumsy and for a firm enough grip to be taken, then a great deal of pressure will have to be applied. Pressure which is both cruel and needless.

Now we get to the point of the lethal injection. To find a main vein in the foreleg of a struggling, stressed and probably screaming squirrel, is probably next to impossible, and the more extended the attempts so the greater the stress level, for both the vet and the animal, that it becomes an act of barbarism.

The reality is that once the animal has been gripped firmly, it would be turned over and a lethal concoction would be injected directly into the heart and through the thorax. Effectively, the squirrel would be stabbed to death, because it would probably be unconscious by the time that the chemicals started to work".


Tell me now, when the squirrel is sitting quietly in it's cage, do you not think that a simple and effective .22 pellet wouldn't be the most humane answer to the death of our chum? I do.

Again , if I've caused you, or others offence, then I apologise, but the blind faith which the blind attach to those who are equally blind, will raise the ire level of those who find the issuings of the rspca to be a total contradiction of their claims and statements.

I'm sure that you consider me arrogant, and this may not help, but before the rspca release any more ridiculous press statements, then if they'll run them past me first, I'll give them an honest and discreet opinion as to the sense of their words. Currently the rspca release statements which most accept as having been dreamt up in a knee jerk fashion, rather than being actually thought through.

Alec.

Ets, and as a footnote, I agree with you that death by drowning is unacceptable, and a practice which I could never support. I have a fear of drowning which is the result of a childhood incident. However, am I anthropomorphising? I have a fear of drowning but the drowned animal doesn't, and those who've returned to life from drowning have told me that it was a surprisingly peaceful experience. I still don't fancy it, much! a

 

[Countryman]

Now this idea of Squirrelhounds! That could be fun . It's just a shame that they climb trees. Perhaps a combination of hawks (to flush them out) and terriers/hounds/longdogs to catch them would be best...

 

[MillyMoomie]

I apologise if you found me insulting or offensive. That wasn't my intention.

Perhaps if I were to approach this from another direction, you may see how my frustration forms. When there are those who quote the rspca, as chapter and verse, and in a fashion which would belie common sense, then I find that remaining calm and patient is something of a test!!

Let me explain, if you'd posted something along the lines of;

"Can someone explain to me the likely events of how a cage trapped squirrel would be euthanised by lethal injection, and by a competent vet", Then the reply from most would have been something along the lines of;

"The squirrel, within its cage, would be put into a car, and taken to a, probably bemused, vet. This is where the fun (sic) starts! Cage traps have a large front entrance door, and a gloved hand would have to be inserted into this door, whilst being certain that the squirrel doesn't bolt back past the gloved hand, and fly about around the surgery. Ordinary welders gloves MAY be good enough to protect the vet from being bitten, and the problem with such gloves is that if they are thick enough to protect the hand then they are going to be incredibly clumsy and for a firm enough grip to be taken, then a great deal of pressure will have to be applied. Pressure which is both cruel and needless.

Now we get to the point of the lethal injection. To find a main vein in the foreleg of a struggling, stressed and probably screaming squirrel, is probably next to impossible, and the more extended the attempts so the greater the stress level, for both the vet and the animal, that it becomes an act of barbarism.

The reality is that once the animal has been gripped firmly, it would be turned over and a lethal concoction would be injected directly into the heart and through the thorax. Effectively, the squirrel would be stabbed to death, because it would probably be unconscious by the time that the chemicals started to work".


Tell me now, when the squirrel is sitting quietly in it's cage, do you not think that a simple and effective .22 pellet wouldn't be the most humane answer to the death of our chum? I do.

Again , if I've caused you, or others offence, then I apologise, but the blind faith which the blind attach to those who are equally blind, will raise the ire level of those who find the issuings of the rspca to be a total contradiction of their claims and statements.

I'm sure that you consider me arrogant, and this may not help, but before the rspca release any more ridiculous press statements, then if they'll run them past me first, I'll give them an honest and discreet opinion as to the sense of their words. Currently the rspca release statements which most accept as having been dreamt up in a knee jerk fashion, rather than being actually thought through.

Alec.

Ets, and as a footnote, I agree with you that death by drowning is unacceptable, and a practice which I could never support. I have a fear of drowning which is the result of a childhood incident. However, am I anthropomorphising? I have a fear of drowning but the drowned animal doesn't, and those who've returned to life from drowning have told me that it was a surprisingly peaceful experience. I still don't fancy it, much! a

Right, Alec my main issue with you is that you treat people who disagree with as an idiot. There is no need to to detail the methods of Intravenous or Intracardiac injection by using barbiturates. I have first hand experience.

As you have finally answered my original question which for arguments sake i will re-post here, " How would YOU advise a humane method of destruction other than injection by a vet? Im interested?" I am sure you would agree, this is simply a question, I didnt argue the merits of injection or otherwise. Now i thank you for providing me with an answer, which incidentally i AGREE with. The point I was leading to, was that many people may not have a .22 handy or either the inclination. The RSPCA can hardly state that every trapped squirrel be shot or neck dislocated. can you imagine the carnage of every tom, dick and harry attempting this! By far the safest advice is to simply to transport to a professional. I am pretty sure any competent trapper is already experienced in humane methods and would not be seeking advice from the RSPCA. Making your original post on this subject a moot point.

Now, we get to the original reason i felt compelled to reply to your original post. Which again for aguments sake i will again qoute, " Secondly, it would put the holder in contravention of the law, being in unlicensed possession of a live squirrel!" As I have already pointed out, you are MISTAKEN. It is a good job the RSPCA didnt run THIS statement by you isnt it? Or was it a case of the biased blind leading the biased blind leading the biased blind who will do anything to discredit whom they consider their enemy?

 

[Moomin1]

Right, Alec my main issue with you is that you treat people who disagree with as an idiot. There is no need to to detail the methods of Intravenous or Intracardiac injection by using barbiturates. I have first hand experience.

As you have finally answered my original question which for arguments sake i will re-post here, " How would YOU advise a humane method of destruction other than injection by a vet? Im interested?" I am sure you would agree, this is simply a question, I didnt argue the merits of injection or otherwise. Now i thank you for providing me with an answer, which incidentally i AGREE with. The point I was leading to, was that many people may not have a .22 handy or either the inclination. The RSPCA can hardly state that every trapped squirrel be shot or neck dislocated. can you imagine the carnage of every tom, dick and harry attempting this! By far the safest advice is to simply to transport to a professional. I am pretty sure any competent trapper is already experienced in humane methods and would not be seeking advice from the RSPCA. Making your original post on this subject a moot point.

Now, we get to the original reason i felt compelled to reply to your original post. Which again for aguments sake i will again qoute, " Secondly, it would put the holder in contravention of the law, being in unlicensed possession of a live squirrel!" As I have already pointed out, you are MISTAKEN. It is a good job the RSPCA didnt run THIS statement by you isnt it? Or was it a case of the biased blind leading the biased blind leading the biased blind who will do anything to discredit whom they consider their enemy?

Fantastic post.

 

[Alec Swan]

Deleted.

I give in, and will acquiesce to the idiots. Don't ever say that I didn't try.

Idiot arguments come from idiots, and the sane step away from them, I'm advised.

Alec.

 

[MillyMoomie]

Alec I took it upon myself to investigate your original post containing the statement from Mike Swan ( no relation ) I would be interested to know where he read this advise from the RSPCA as this was all I could dredge up from the website. I think it makes sense. Note no mention of transportation to a vet in the cage trapped paragraph.
http://www.rspca.org.uk/ImageLocator/LocateAsset?asset=document&assetId=1232713931123&mode=prd

 

[MillyMoomie]

Alec in my days of debating calling your opponents 'idiots' and using insults was not considered the done thing.
Accepting when you are wrong in this instance is the classy way to step aside, But then somehow I think 'degradation' is your weapon.
No matter, i enjoy a argument plus I am man enough to accept that occasionally I find what you write insightful and wise. I am open to reasoned opinion no matter what 'idiots' disagree.