Sad end to a good month ;-(

[Delicious_D]

Armas, all of that is fairly moot. More than ten people (guestimate) looked at your horse and said he didn't look level or sound, I was one of them and it was very early on. You chose to ignore it because you thought you knew your horse better. If one, just one, person told me - after seeing a video or in real life that they felt my horse looked unsound I would investigate it, firstly by getting the opinion of others I respect and going from there. You pooh poohed our opinion and curtly thanked us to keep them to ourselves I seem to remember! You don't have to be a vet to spot a short horse, I could see he wasn't right behind and I am a first horse owner!

^^ this, its fine to only want a vet opinion, but unless you show them the videos etc, they only see the horse in a snapshot of time. I showed my vet videos i had taken of dee.

To reiterate, if you dont agree with OUR opinion becuase im not a vet, dont post on here!

 

[Armas]

Armas, all of that is fairly moot. More than ten people (guestimate) looked at your horse and said he didn't look level or sound, I was one of them and it was very early on. You chose to ignore it because you thought you knew your horse better. If one, just one, person told me - after seeing a video or in real life that they felt my horse looked unsound I would investigate it, firstly by getting the opinion of others I respect and going from there. You pooh poohed our opinion and curtly thanked us to keep them to ourselves I seem to remember! You don't have to be a vet to spot a short horse, I could see he wasn't right behind and I am a first horse owner!

I generally listen to what the VET who actually can see and examine my horse first hand has to say and then I act. A vet yesterday diagnosed an issue yesterday and my horse is being treated accordingly.
Had a vet not an armchair poster who's qualifications I do not know had told me my horse had an issue I would act upon that. I in fact also asked a British vet and Spanish stud owner to watch some videos and give me his opinion. He has been watching most of my videos this last year.
This was his opinion. Yet again I have consulted a professional and it was is deemed my horse was not lame. Armas issues were only diagnosed after scans.


I remember suggesting to you that you should return Armas and exchange him for another horse -or be prepared to spend a lot of money getting him re-trained!
Firstly, I do not see enough evidence of a problem in his hind leg and so would suggest continuing to ride him as you are doing.
I have no reservations regarding your rider. He is breaking down the habits Armas has developed over the years one by one. In the first instance there was a need to ask Armas to lower the poll and work in a longer frame. Using a curb encourages the horse to adopt the required outline without constantly nagging at the mouth. The rider is also working on establishing a response to light aids and requiring Armas to carry himself without hanging on to the reins. The rider is quick to reward the horse both by releasing rein pressure and also by the more obvious stroke/pat. The latter tend to be a reassurance that the horse is responding as required and need not get upset. The rider is also introducing flexing and bending exercise figures. There are two benefits to this; one is discipline (ie the horse is doing what he is told), and the other is to increase the suppleness of the horse, which should improve all his gaits.
So, you can tell I have a lot of respect to your trainer and think that he has improved Armas' way of going considerably in a short time. I suppose there is always a 'but' ! Armas has come behind the vertical as he has lowered his poll and this puts him on his forehand. It is not a problem at the moment because, as I said at the beginning, the rider is having to correct one problem at a time. But you should be aware, so that it is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I am afraid to say that it will take more than a month to achieve this so you must learn what to do before your trainer returns to Spain! Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim. Again, your rider will not achieve it in the time span but it's worth discussing it with him to see if he agrees. The Spanish are keen to teach Piaffe but there is a technical argument about the way it is taught. Piaffe is the ultimate collected trot. It's often taught by tapping the hind legs to get them to step but not allow them forward. Often, this results in Piaffe-type steps but the horse often remains bum high. Perhaps the Piaffe should be taught by increasing degrees of collection at the trot. The acid test for a good Piaffe is if the horse can come out of it immediately into a Medium or Extended trot. ie the Piaffe is effectively a coiled spring ready to release. Those taught 'from behind' often fail because they are not sitting down properly.
I hope that this makes some sense! Stick with this guy as he is sorting out a lot of problems in a very considerate way. Learn as much as you can from him while he is with you.

 

[Shysmum]

Honestly, I just wish the horses and owners the very best. Dee and Armas are amazing horses, and I believe that both owners need a cup of tea and a hug atm.

I apologise if I'd come across as a knob. x

 

[Delicious_D]

I generally listen to what the VET who actually can see and examine my horse first hand has to say and then I act. A vet yesterday diagnosed an issue yesterday and my horse is being treated accordingly.
Had a vet not an armchair poster who's qualifications I do not know had told me my horse had an issue I would act upon that. I in fact also asked a British vet and Spanish stud owner to watch some videos and give me his opinion. He has been watching most of my videos this last year.
This was his opinion. Yet again I have consulted a professional and it was is deemed my horse was not lame. Armas issues were only diagnosed after scans.


I remember suggesting to you that you should return Armas and exchange him for another horse -or be prepared to spend a lot of money getting him re-trained!
Firstly, I do not see enough evidence of a problem in his hind leg and so would suggest continuing to ride him as you are doing.
I have no reservations regarding your rider. He is breaking down the habits Armas has developed over the years one by one. In the first instance there was a need to ask Armas to lower the poll and work in a longer frame. Using a curb encourages the horse to adopt the required outline without constantly nagging at the mouth. The rider is also working on establishing a response to light aids and requiring Armas to carry himself without hanging on to the reins. The rider is quick to reward the horse both by releasing rein pressure and also by the more obvious stroke/pat. The latter tend to be a reassurance that the horse is responding as required and need not get upset. The rider is also introducing flexing and bending exercise figures. There are two benefits to this; one is discipline (ie the horse is doing what he is told), and the other is to increase the suppleness of the horse, which should improve all his gaits.
So, you can tell I have a lot of respect to your trainer and think that he has improved Armas' way of going considerably in a short time. I suppose there is always a 'but' ! Armas has come behind the vertical as he has lowered his poll and this puts him on his forehand. It is not a problem at the moment because, as I said at the beginning, the rider is having to correct one problem at a time. But you should be aware, so that it is a means to an end and not an end in itself. I am afraid to say that it will take more than a month to achieve this so you must learn what to do before your trainer returns to Spain! Armas tends to 'run' rather than trot. The difference lies in the moment of suspension. A balanced/cadenced trot has a long moment of suspension (think of Passage as the ultimate in cadence) and comes from a trot where the hind legs step under and lift the shoulders. All trot work should be towards that aim. Again, your rider will not achieve it in the time span but it's worth discussing it with him to see if he agrees. The Spanish are keen to teach Piaffe but there is a technical argument about the way it is taught. Piaffe is the ultimate collected trot. It's often taught by tapping the hind legs to get them to step but not allow them forward. Often, this results in Piaffe-type steps but the horse often remains bum high. Perhaps the Piaffe should be taught by increasing degrees of collection at the trot. The acid test for a good Piaffe is if the horse can come out of it immediately into a Medium or Extended trot. ie the Piaffe is effectively a coiled spring ready to release. Those taught 'from behind' often fail because they are not sitting down properly.
I hope that this makes some sense! Stick with this guy as he is sorting out a lot of problems in a very considerate way. Learn as much as you can from him while he is with you.

Armchair posters - nice! If oyu have such a lowly opinion of this forum, dont post daily updates?

 

[nikicb]

Oh i accept that, and i dont post daily updates

Its a forum, and a FAB source of info! But is a forum, and also sometimes peoples opinions mean nothign to me..and some have ulterior motives .

I accept when i post a thread, i will get good and bad, i used to hate it, i dont any more .

I'm very glad for your sake that you have come through this as I was quite concerned about how the forum was affecting your life. You had some very tough personal circumstances (which you posted about) and I did feel you needed the forum to provide you with positive reinforcement which you you demonstrated by posting numerous times. In the end I think the whole thing imploded and you went off for a while.

I think Armas may be in the same position you were a little while back. I'm sure if I posted several times a week, there would be people who posted negative things and even the fans, or fawners as they have been referred to, would get tired of seeing the same thing again and again. The negative comments would start to appear. Then the self doubt from the OP and the defensive comments. And then the criticism. It becomes a downwards spiral.

Not sure what the solution is really other than to head off for a while, sort out Armas' issues, work on getting him stronger and working through from behind (as long as the physical issues are sorted) and then come back and post the triumphant welcome back thread.

Good luck Armas and DD with your horses (I do really mean that), but please learn to respond appropriately to the negative comments and lap up the positive ones. xx

 

[Ilovefoals]

nickicb - I think I'm your biggest fan!

 

[Deseado]

I am not surprised that Armas was passed by a vet; he is/was not unsound. Many, many horses are unlevel, short, arythmic, unidentifiably "not right". His owner has now decided to investigate; should this really be an occasion to crow about how right and "told-you-so" everyone was? I wonder how many of our horses would be 100% sound in serious work?

 

[Delicious_D]

I'm very glad for your sake that you have come through this as I was quite concerned about how the forum was affecting your life. You had some very tough personal circumstances (which you posted about) and I did feel you needed the forum to provide you with positive reinforcement which you you demonstrated by posting numerous times. In the end I think the whole thing imploded and you went off for a while.

I think Armas may be in the same position you were a little while back. I'm sure if I posted several times a week, there would be people who posted negative things and even the fans, or fawners as they have been referred to, would get tired of seeing the same thing again and again. The negative comments would start to appear. Then the self doubt from the OP and the defensive comments. And then the criticism. It becomes a downwards spiral.

Not sure what the solution is really other than to head off for a while, sort out Armas' issues, work on getting him stronger and working through from behind (as long as the physical issues are sorted) and then come back and post the triumphant welcome back thread.

Good luck Armas and DD with your horses (I do really mean that), but please learn to respond appropriately to the negative comments and lap up the positive ones. xx

I agree tbh. I wasnt well when i was first on here. I took some time and came back. my whole viewpoint is different. I dont take anything personally anymore (unless im having a bad day, but i dont come on here then).

The first thing i did when i came back was admit my behaviour wasnt right. But i resent being called an armchair poster as its highly hipocritical. But not my issue, James is over double my age and tbh, if he is who he says he is, surely i shouldnt get under his skin.

 

[nikicb]

nickicb - I think I'm your biggest fan!

Oohh - runs around the room squealing excitedly - I've got a fan, I've got a fan!!

 

[Mongoose11]

Armas wasn't in serious work.

James, you said you listen to a vet - yes of course. Is a vet there every day to assess whether Armas is in full health that day? I guess not therefore you rely on your own eyes and secondly the public opinion from those who have seen your horse move. I guess I am just suprised at your suprise and dismay that Armas has had an issue diagnosed when for many of us 'armchair posters' (where else would you like me to sit) it was a bit of a 'D'uh' moment! As I said it didn't take a vet to suggest that there was something that needed looking at.

If Armas was to go down with colic would you leave him to it because a vet wasn't there to tell you that he might be sick? Doubtful.

I guess this is a 'told you so' situation. No getting away from that but not in a nasty 'glad to have been proved right' kind of way. I am sorry you have possible issues with Armas, but in a factual way I guess there is an element of 'I told you so'. I did.

 

[Delicious_D]

No one on this thread has been nasty IMHO, just truthful. NO ONE would want a horse to be injured/in pain, and i think everyone is now glad you are getting help TBPH.

 

[Ilovefoals]

Oohh - runs around the room squealing excitedly - I've got a fan, I've got a fan!!

Lol!

 

[TrasaM]

I'm really sorry that the beautiful Armas has a problem and I hope you get it all sorted out.
I was one of those who commented that he looked lame / wrong behind after the 2nd video. Perhaps it's because you are so close to him and used to seeing him move that you never noticed it yourself. Sometimes our dreams can over ride our judgement or we get so used to seeing them move like this that we no longer See what's right in front of us.
We've got a horse at our yard with Shivers. It got really bad a couple of months ago and I kept commenting on it being very lame but kept bring told that it was it's condition. To me he looked in a lot of pain amd YO and I came very near to falling out over it. Two months on I was proven right when the farrier spotted an abscess hole on his rear hoof. Both the owner and the YO refused to listen because they were distracted by his existing condition.

PS.. I sit on a sofa..

 

[devonlass]

I am unsure as to why some people on this thread are banging on so much about the same point?? Must be about 5 pages of 'I told you so'!! Do some of you want recognition for spotting a horse was 'not right' behind in a video,some sort of fawning appreciation maybe??

If not then have to tell you it is most definitely coming across that way,whether you mean it to or not.

Many horses are not totally sound I suspect,and from what I recall this horse wasn't terribly bad or in obvious pain.

It appears the work may not have done any harm and may have even helped as I'm understanding it by building muscle over the affected area??
Either way the horse is now being treated,owner has gained some valuable knowledge and experience,don't see the problem myself.

Perhaps better at this stage to wish them both well rather than be childishly crowing over who was right.

 

[Amaranta]

Really . Half pass showed his issues more then anything else. I feel the horse wasnt strong enough for you to attempt spanish walk. I stand by that statement.

Just wanted to say that I start teaching Spanish walk to 2yos (inhand of course) and the horse does not have to be particularly strong to do this.

 

[rosita]

Oh good grief. Horse lame. Feel through movement, to be frank an experienced rider can feel a horse that's unlevel. Never ever it until it becomes lame! If its consistently unlevel there is clearly an underlying problem that a bit of bute will not help. Tbh there are vets and then there are vets. I've learnt to be very careful.

 

[WelshD]

I'm sorry you are having problems. Armas looks to have come a long way in the last month but I am amazed the expert horseman that is staying with you didn't pick up on this before, surely he must have felt that something wasn't right and must have seen the videos
Hopefully things will get better though now something has been firmly diagnosed

 

[Booboos]

I am so sorry to hear Armas is unwell, hope he makes a full recovery.

I haven't read the whole thread and don't have experience with SI but I would suggest the following might be useful to you:
- ask the vet if he has a colleague who speaks English so that you can ask all your questions and get a very clear understanding of how you can help Armas with his management and training. I know most French people do not speak other languages but you may be lucky and find someone else in the practice who can relay the information.

- spend time looking at the videos to try and familiarise yourself with what the horse's movement looks like when he is short so that you can see it again next time. Remember what he felt like ridden as well (maybe write a description of it) so that you can refer to it next time he starts feeling different.

- if Armas is allowed work on the lunge try an Equiami. I appreciate you can't just do all the things people suggest on a forum but take a chance on this one. It really helps BTV horses stretch down without interfering with their mouth and the more he gets used to warming up long and low the less likely he is to aggravate this condition or cause new ones.

Best of luck and remember, that's horses for you, they always have ups and downs and I hope Armas in on an 'up' soon.