Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Anyone know how the tree is adjustable. Will it fit any horse. What can be adjusted the whole tree or part
Saddle company trees
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Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Is there a maximum it can be widened
TPO
🤠🏴
Each tree won't fit any/every horse
Iirc there are three different tree designs
The tree is adjusted using their saddle templating machine. There isn't, or at least wasn't, any guidance about maximum adjustments or number of adjustments.
I'm presuming from all your posts you had a fitter sell you an SC saddle and you aren't happy with it?
You have to pursue the fitter as an individual and not the SC, unless they did the fitting for you.
Always 2 sides to every story but any fitter worth their salt will have templates, dates and recorded all communication with clients.
Iirc there are three different tree designs
The tree is adjusted using their saddle templating machine. There isn't, or at least wasn't, any guidance about maximum adjustments or number of adjustments.
I'm presuming from all your posts you had a fitter sell you an SC saddle and you aren't happy with it?
You have to pursue the fitter as an individual and not the SC, unless they did the fitting for you.
Always 2 sides to every story but any fitter worth their salt will have templates, dates and recorded all communication with clients.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
As TPO says, trees are all different and fit different shapes, there is a handful of models/brands which use advertising that says they can be adjusted to any horse - generally those of us in the industry roll our eyes at that, wherever it comes from. It's a saddle skeleton to match a horse skeleton, so it has to match.
It's a plastic tree yet, uniquely, it's adjustable in a vice, and through a wide range and many times, unlike wooden trees, the type more normally adjusted in a vice (Saddle Devil type, though SC fitters have a slightly different one usually).
It's a plastic tree yet, uniquely, it's adjustable in a vice, and through a wide range and many times, unlike wooden trees, the type more normally adjusted in a vice (Saddle Devil type, though SC fitters have a slightly different one usually).
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Hi I find it strange there is no set tolerance levels for adjusting the tree. I understand that yes the tree if the right shape for the horse can be narrowed or widened but what about the compromise on the fabric material that sits on the tree. If it doesn’t have the same tolerance level it will be damaged or fail. Can anyone explain that one
eg my leggings can stretch over my legs but there comes a point when they are too tight and split. Surely this is the same for this plastic tree
eg my leggings can stretch over my legs but there comes a point when they are too tight and split. Surely this is the same for this plastic tree
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Hi can you advise what the difference types of trees are. I thought there was only one tree but in different lengths but in dressage gp etc style
Not all fitters are worth their salt and no I’m not happy with the saddle it doesn’t fit and never has done. All I’m told is that the tree is totally fully adjustable and will mold to my horse. I’m still waiting 6 months later for it mold and stop sitting a good 4 inches above the withers! But I’m also told this is normal. I ride a 14hh Welsh cross and I feel like I’m on a 15hh horse I’m so far away
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
@Jojoc Flock will settle but it won't mold as such. The saddle may be OK for your horse but not suitable for you. Do you have any pics with you sitting on the saddle? On a 14hh you may have been riding in a much flatter type saddle but if you aren't comfortable its a problem
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
I do have photos but can’t share as do not want to be identified at this time. A saddle should sit so high it also tips backwards sending the rider behind the movement
JBM
Well-Known Member
You can edit photos and block out your Face if that’s any use?
Fire sign
Well-Known Member
Horrible saddles , I would never have one again
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Yes I have found that out the hard way. However still need to know about the trees
Dave's Mam
Well-Known Member
The trees can be adjusted at the gullet & that's it. I found them much too curvy for my pony & they perched.
Lady Jane
Well-Known Member
If its not 'level' I would say it doesn't fit - doesn't mean the flocking couldn't be adjusted appropriately
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Please consult a master saddler about the tree. A saddle that tips back does not fit but proving it never fitted is the tough part at this point.
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
I am now in touch with a master saddler but I do have photos all the way through this process which show after adjusting it still tips backwards
Coblover63
Well-Known Member
They are vile (imho!) They definitely don't go as wide as the SC think they do without perch and roll. The gullet only widens at the front. And as a rider I have yet to ride in one that doesn't chafe the hell out of my lady parts. I avoid at all costs.
SEL
Well-Known Member
I've had a couple of saddle company saddles and neither of the fitters who sold them to me ever described them as being able to be fitted to any horse.
I kept the pony one and tried to see if I could get it adjusted for a flat back, wide, sprung rib cage native with no withers. Fitter tried but said it just wasn't the right shape for a flat backed pony.
They don't always have the best qualified fitters IMO
I kept the pony one and tried to see if I could get it adjusted for a flat back, wide, sprung rib cage native with no withers. Fitter tried but said it just wasn't the right shape for a flat backed pony.
They don't always have the best qualified fitters IMO
TPO
🤠🏴
Assuming you've got thr serge panel? The advice used to be 3hrs of walk work (not all in one go) as the saddle flocking will mould to the horse and sink affecting girth tension.
If buying a new saddle the fitter should come back 3mths later as they usually need some adjustments.
I can't remember the tree names. I know one was a hooped tree but can't recall the names of the others. The fitter should be able to provide that info. If you phone HQ and ask for what tree went into X saddle made for "fitter" they might be able to tell you.
The "plastic" tree is injected fibreglass iirc and it has a metal headplate for strength. The trees are guaranteed for 10yrs and are pretty close to unbreakable. Unlike wooden trees they are also precise wirh no warping.
Not sure if they'd sell to the public but bare trees were available to fitters. Did you fitter try trees when taking templates for purchase? They should also have left you a copy of the template with you saddle specifics eg size, colour, style
You say it's 6mths down the line. When did you raise the initial issue with the fitter? What happened when the saddle was fitted and you rode in it for the fitter?
Is the saddle tipping the rider back? That could be an issue with stirrup bar placement or riding. Or is the saddle unlevel qhen on the horse with the horse standing square on level ground?
Typically too high at the front means too narrow so if the tree fits along the back then this should be able to be sorted by adjusting flocking and/or the tree.
Do you have the template of your horses back from when the measurements were taken to compare to horse now? 6mths ago was winter when many horses are leaner and now we're fully into spring when many have put on weight. If you have dated photos too that evidence the horse not changing shape.
The name of the tree is kinda irrelevant. The saddle either fitted initially or it didn't. Why was the saddle accepted as point of sale, was the issue raised prior to 3mth check up?
It's hard to advise on half a story. I appreciate you want to keep your anonymity but on the flip side this is someone's business so it pays to have all the ducks in a row
If buying a new saddle the fitter should come back 3mths later as they usually need some adjustments.
I can't remember the tree names. I know one was a hooped tree but can't recall the names of the others. The fitter should be able to provide that info. If you phone HQ and ask for what tree went into X saddle made for "fitter" they might be able to tell you.
The "plastic" tree is injected fibreglass iirc and it has a metal headplate for strength. The trees are guaranteed for 10yrs and are pretty close to unbreakable. Unlike wooden trees they are also precise wirh no warping.
Not sure if they'd sell to the public but bare trees were available to fitters. Did you fitter try trees when taking templates for purchase? They should also have left you a copy of the template with you saddle specifics eg size, colour, style
You say it's 6mths down the line. When did you raise the initial issue with the fitter? What happened when the saddle was fitted and you rode in it for the fitter?
Is the saddle tipping the rider back? That could be an issue with stirrup bar placement or riding. Or is the saddle unlevel qhen on the horse with the horse standing square on level ground?
Typically too high at the front means too narrow so if the tree fits along the back then this should be able to be sorted by adjusting flocking and/or the tree.
Do you have the template of your horses back from when the measurements were taken to compare to horse now? 6mths ago was winter when many horses are leaner and now we're fully into spring when many have put on weight. If you have dated photos too that evidence the horse not changing shape.
The name of the tree is kinda irrelevant. The saddle either fitted initially or it didn't. Why was the saddle accepted as point of sale, was the issue raised prior to 3mth check up?
It's hard to advise on half a story. I appreciate you want to keep your anonymity but on the flip side this is someone's business so it pays to have all the ducks in a row
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
They arnt trained it’s a cheap way to get into fitting. The SC course is one day doesn’t even involve working on a horse you get follow up training days but the training isn’t quality assured or provided by people qualified to train so I guess what comes out the door is what you can expect for one days training
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
I didn’t get provided with any paperwork just 3 receipts for the deposit full payment and a fitting No terms and conditions or templates provided. When I’ve asked I’ve been refused the templates
issues were raised before the 3 month fit but they said too busy to come out and left me until the 3 month booking then I had further issues a week after their adjustment and a few months later again. Saddle was ok when the fitter adjusted and ridden in
what I’m struggling to get my head around is my old tatty saddle fitted perfectly apart from being tatty and not the most comfortable for me to sit in. Never had an issue with it in the 6 years of using it with 6 monthly checks by a sms fitter and no concerns from physio however this saddle has been a nightmare. It’s the box standard gp saddle with no bespoke changes and serge panel yet I’m told it’s bespoke. The fitter didn’t bring anything with them apart from the bendy plastic thing and the template sheet which was only a5 not a3
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Ouch. Can’t say I’ve had that problem but you are not the first I have heard say that
SO1
Well-Known Member
Why don't you call saddle company and ask them. They have a customer service person and might be able to help you at least identify if your saddle was bespoke or not. They have a section on their website that explains what they consider bespoke they will probably be able to answer question about tree as well.
I have had my saddle company saddle for 15 years and happy with it but will depend on the fitter as to the advice given. Same with all brands really.
I have had my saddle company saddle for 15 years and happy with it but will depend on the fitter as to the advice given. Same with all brands really.
TPO
🤠🏴
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way and you'll get the stock answer that each fitter is self employed and nothing to do with SC. HQ won't get involved although they may be able to tell you what tree has been used if asked nicely and not because of a complaint.
Fitters trained by SC are provided with fitting papers that are A3 and with carbon copies. One for fitter, one to go to HQ to make saddle to template and one for customer. All relevant info to make saddle should be on that. SC HQ provided leaflets to fitters that advise the client about the fitting and making process, bedding in, 3mth check and guarantee so this should have been haven't to you also or an alternative if thr fitter had their own made.
Have you spoken to Trading standards or CAB? If a bhs gold member might also be worth a call to their legal helpline.
I'd imagine small claims would be the route to take.
If the saddle was OK initially and after a further adjustment I think you might struggle to prove not fit for purpose. The key might be identifying why it was OK at those points and not now?
Not SC but I had a western saddle "made to measure" and it was awful. She couldn't provide any template details despite spending hours with trees and the only thing she had was two photographs taken from behind and the right side only. When the saddle arrived it had a massive flare over the right shoulder that made the saddle fall forward even on a large wooden saddle horse and the tree didn't fit along horse's back either. It was an awful experience and her customer service was non existent, she just stopped answering my messages.
I'm pretty sure I had to mention taking things further before she refunded the cost of the saddle. I was still left out of pocket well into the hundreds having paid for her waste of time useless "fitting" and thr postage each way on a heavy saddle.
I could easily prove the saddle didn't fit any horse let alone mine because she gave the factory bad/wrong instructions. She also didn't have any evidence of her fitting/templates and I had witnesses to thr fitting who heard everything that she said. I had photos and videos from every angle thst I sent to her as evidence. She went awol until I sought legal advice and then she offered to refund, thst took an age too but fi ally happened.
So I've been in a similar position, not fun ?
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
I’ve never given a copy of any templates and refused when asked so I’ve no idea of measurements or idea of what was asked when the order went to the factory. Im told this information belongs to the fitter not me and if the fitter won’t provide it it’s up to them so I can’t get any information
I have got lots of messages to the fitter saying I have problems with the saddle and photos of issues throughout the process. Mainly saddle slip scrubbing and too high on the withers a common issue
the hq office I think turn ignore and avoid conflict. How they can train people to fit saddles without working in a horse and also use trainers not qualified to train and no quality assurance on training is a disgrace however not illegal
Winger23man
Well-Known Member
Red-1
I used to be decisive, now I'm not so sure...
Although I think you may well be within your rights, I personally would simply contact the fitter and say that we could do the legal route or she/he could simply buy the saddle back for X amount of money.
Decide what you would accept.
I bought one for baby horse that looked OK on fitting (well, OK I did have a slight concern, but I didn't reject it), but that obviously, on use, was not the perfect fit as it thinned a section of hair at the back so you could visibly see a patch. At first I thought it was just because it was coat change time, but no, it continued. I knocked a third of the price off as I had been using it, asked her to give me the rest, and she took it back.
No, I should not have had to do that. Yes, it was all done, cash on the day.
Funnily enough, baby horse is now in the old saddle from the back of the tack room that she said would never fit, and he seems happy enough! It is the same saddle as is on the black cob on my avatar. I would say the back of the saddle has a slight movement when pressed, the front is a little wide, but the horse is happy, with a gel under. I will get a new one when we actually start to do something.
BTW, the common problems with made to measure is why I will only either buy secondhand or off the peg. Or from a saddler who says that you can reject the made to measure saddle if you are not delighted and hungry to keep it. But I would need that in writing!
I rejected a saddle, new and made to measure, on this once. The saddle maker (it was the actual company owner) said that my ginger horse wouldn't take a jumping tree with more forward points as he disliked it, after he bucked a few times on landing after a fence on the fitting, which was out of character. He took the saddle straight back, even though it apparently fitted perfectly, and made a jump saddle on a dressage tree, cutting the back of the cantle to be flatter. I didn't think it would work at all but, again, it had the guarantee that if I wasn't keen to keep it, I didn't own it. No payment until satisfied at fitting. It worked. The horse went well.
Horses are fickle, as are riders, and some don't like the feel of a saddle even if it supposedly fits. I rode in one that was fabulous for baby horse, I mean he really lifted his back and strode forwards, but I felt perched. It was a trial saddle and the saddler did say that she would eliminate that in a made to measure, but nope, that is why we are still with the old one from the back of the tack room, as no one can tell what one will feel like until you sit your ass in it, and this saddler wanted money up front for made to measure! I did like that brand so may well look for a second hand one in due course.
Do you still have the old saddle? As, for the horse's sake, I would start using it again and formally reject this one. It is more difficult to say the new one is not fit for purpose when you continue to use it for the intended purpose.
Decide what you would accept.
I bought one for baby horse that looked OK on fitting (well, OK I did have a slight concern, but I didn't reject it), but that obviously, on use, was not the perfect fit as it thinned a section of hair at the back so you could visibly see a patch. At first I thought it was just because it was coat change time, but no, it continued. I knocked a third of the price off as I had been using it, asked her to give me the rest, and she took it back.
No, I should not have had to do that. Yes, it was all done, cash on the day.
Funnily enough, baby horse is now in the old saddle from the back of the tack room that she said would never fit, and he seems happy enough! It is the same saddle as is on the black cob on my avatar. I would say the back of the saddle has a slight movement when pressed, the front is a little wide, but the horse is happy, with a gel under. I will get a new one when we actually start to do something.
BTW, the common problems with made to measure is why I will only either buy secondhand or off the peg. Or from a saddler who says that you can reject the made to measure saddle if you are not delighted and hungry to keep it. But I would need that in writing!
I rejected a saddle, new and made to measure, on this once. The saddle maker (it was the actual company owner) said that my ginger horse wouldn't take a jumping tree with more forward points as he disliked it, after he bucked a few times on landing after a fence on the fitting, which was out of character. He took the saddle straight back, even though it apparently fitted perfectly, and made a jump saddle on a dressage tree, cutting the back of the cantle to be flatter. I didn't think it would work at all but, again, it had the guarantee that if I wasn't keen to keep it, I didn't own it. No payment until satisfied at fitting. It worked. The horse went well.
Horses are fickle, as are riders, and some don't like the feel of a saddle even if it supposedly fits. I rode in one that was fabulous for baby horse, I mean he really lifted his back and strode forwards, but I felt perched. It was a trial saddle and the saddler did say that she would eliminate that in a made to measure, but nope, that is why we are still with the old one from the back of the tack room, as no one can tell what one will feel like until you sit your ass in it, and this saddler wanted money up front for made to measure! I did like that brand so may well look for a second hand one in due course.
Do you still have the old saddle? As, for the horse's sake, I would start using it again and formally reject this one. It is more difficult to say the new one is not fit for purpose when you continue to use it for the intended purpose.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Saddle fitting is scary. It's a lot of money, a long term relationship and SO important for your horse. So is your part in the process (not accusing you of anything, talking generally) - I send out an absolute ton of information on booking. Yes, it will put some off, but those that engage, and decide to work with me, will understand their role, as well as their rights. I would direct anyone interested in some basic and not-so-basic stuff about how the horse affects the saddle should follow "Equimetric" on FB, French page, but the translations and images together are usually enough to understand.
I personally do supply templates, or copies of, but there are plenty of fitters who have supplied templates, the customer's gone off and ordered a saddle somehow on their own, and then come back to hassle the fitter when it doesn't fit. Unless you've expressly paid for advice on what to go and buy then it's understandable that the fitter should not be getting abuse, basic templates and fitting and a comment as to what model they would order you is not enough to order a saddle when there will be 10 more things that need speccing for each saddle, but customers taking the p*ss leads fitters to protect themselves.
In the meantime I think people are too nervous to truly research sometimes, because it's not hard to find information about different companies, discoveries about how much or how little training people have had, whether qualifications in themselves mean you'll get a good service. I think sometimes one comment or recommendation is enough to send people off going "phew, found someone, quick, get it over with"...and they fail to see information on the web about terrible quality saddles, terrible customer service or basic fitting in the first place.
We also have to understand that, if you were spending lots of money on a car, or a sofa etc we'd expect paperwork. We should expect paperwork when we buy a saddle, but I understand that so many are in "freeze" mode with the saddle fitter. Ask questions, have a think before the fitting, have a plan, ask questions on the phone first to be sure you think you can work with this person. It's too important a purchase not to do this.
The industry IS changing, but there is great resistance. We need partnerships that are open and honest and about the process of getting horse-saddle-rider working in harmony, and that it is not about a "magic saddle" that fixes everything. Again, not saying that is the case here, far from it, just a general essay on saddle fitting!
TPO
🤠🏴
In slight defense of the SC they don't train, or claim to train, people how to fit saddles to the horse. The training day is all about using the template machine to adjust the saddles.
sbloom
Well-Known Member
Yes, for each individual type of tree but there are so many other factors and different fitters and companies have different "paradigms" - for instance I would adjust a wooden tree a handful of times, but it would be twice only times if it was widened then narrowed again. If it was widened over and over then it would be possible to do many adjustments. Wooden trees I would adjust two sizes usually, maximum, but three is not unknown. These are handmade products, adjusted by hand, feel is everything.
I have to confess I find the SC tree confusing, most other plastic trees are altered by heat or changing the headplate, they are unique, afaik, by not being heated yet being put in a vice.
The tree manufacturer is likely to have a published tolerance for adjustment but you need to find who makes the tree if you don't trust what is coming from the maker. Choose a maker you trust....
Tiddlypom
Carries on creakily
Does anyone train SC saddle fitters to fit SC saddles to the actual horse and rider, then?