Saddle company trees

[sbloom]

In slight defense of the SC they don't train, or claim to train, people how to fit saddles to the horse. The training day is all about using the template machine to adjust the saddles.

I'm sure you're right, yet one fitter trained this way was immediately out describing herself as "fully qualified" and fitting all brands of saddle. She and I had a few online set-tos until she stopped with this BS.

 

[sbloom]

Does anyone train SC saddle fitters to fit SC saddles to the actual horse and rider, then?

You'd have to ask each fitter I would imagine. Many are bodyworkers who decide they want to fit saddles, but knowing how many bodyworkers have told my customers that the channel is causing issues because it's too narrow, and it's been a (provable, a customer of mine posted one such story just a week or two ago) rail/tree shape issue, I'll leave that one to your imagination.

 

[TPO]

Does anyone train SC saddle fitters to fit SC saddles to the actual horse and rider, then?

That's the personal responsibility of the person who wants to set themself up as a fitter.

The owner of the SC was (is) a member of SMS and was possibly a fellow? He designed the template that is the standard for wooden trees.

He is/was happy to take people out with him when he was fitting for additional experience. No idea if that's still the case but that wasn't part of the "training day".

The training day was solely seeing the factory and learning how the saddles were made, seeing all the suffering trees/saddles/making options, then adjusting the saddles and how to template and translate that to the machine.

I asked to do an additional day and came back the following day to do flocking work at the bench. The SC were happy to accommodate that and another person came back too.

 

[Winger23man]

Saddle fitting is scary. It's a lot of money, a long term relationship and SO important for your horse. So is your part in the process (not accusing you of anything, talking generally) - I send out an absolute ton of information on booking. Yes, it will put some off, but those that engage, and decide to work with me, will understand their role, as well as their rights. I would direct anyone interested in some basic and not-so-basic stuff about how the horse affects the saddle should follow "Equimetric" on FB, French page, but the translations and images together are usually enough to understand.

I personally do supply templates, or copies of, but there are plenty of fitters who have supplied templates, the customer's gone off and ordered a saddle somehow on their own, and then come back to hassle the fitter when it doesn't fit. Unless you've expressly paid for advice on what to go and buy then it's understandable that the fitter should not be getting abuse, basic templates and fitting and a comment as to what model they would order you is not enough to order a saddle when there will be 10 more things that need speccing for each saddle, but customers taking the p*ss leads fitters to protect themselves.

In the meantime I think people are too nervous to truly research sometimes, because it's not hard to find information about different companies, discoveries about how much or how little training people have had, whether qualifications in themselves mean you'll get a good service. I think sometimes one comment or recommendation is enough to send people off going "phew, found someone, quick, get it over with"...and they fail to see information on the web about terrible quality saddles, terrible customer service or basic fitting in the first place.

We also have to understand that, if you were spending lots of money on a car, or a sofa etc we'd expect paperwork. We should expect paperwork when we buy a saddle, but I understand that so many are in "freeze" mode with the saddle fitter. Ask questions, have a think before the fitting, have a plan, ask questions on the phone first to be sure you think you can work with this person. It's too important a purchase not to do this.

The industry IS changing, but there is great resistance. We need partnerships that are open and honest and about the process of getting horse-saddle-rider working in harmony, and that it is not about a "magic saddle" that fixes everything. Again, not saying that is the case here, far from it, just a general essay on saddle fitting!

All good advice after the even so point taken. Will never use them again or recommend and now only use a SMS
Te keeping using the saddles how can you not do that if

 

[Winger23man]

All good advice after the even so point taken. Will never use them again or recommend and now only use a SMS
Te keeping using the saddles how can you not do that if the fitter keeps telling you the saddle is still new and will bed down and adjust? And you sadly listen to this advice and keep going

you sound like a responsible fitter and one that does what they are supposed to do and doesn’t cut corners

 

[sbloom]

All good advice after the even so point taken. Will never use them again or recommend and now only use a SMS
Te keeping using the saddles how can you not do that if

To be fair that was not the direction I was trying to take you in, being a non-qualified saddle fitter myself, there are other criteria you can use to select a good saddle fitter that you can work with.

 

[Winger23man]

That's the personal responsibility of the person who wants to set themself up as a fitter.

The owner of the SC was (is) a member of SMS and was possibly a fellow? He designed the template that is the standard for wooden trees.

He is/was happy to take people out with him when he was fitting for additional experience. No idea if that's still the case but that wasn't part of the "training day".

The training day was solely seeing the factory and learning how the saddles were made, seeing all the suffering trees/saddles/making options, then adjusting the saddles and how to template and translate that to the machine.

I asked to do an additional day and came back the following day to do flocking work at the bench. The SC were happy to accommodate that and another person came back too.

Interesting not meaning to sound rude but how can you learn to flock in one day. Flocking is a crucial part of saddle fitter and on sms standards it’s a 4 day course with an exam

 

[Red-1]

I know a couple of SMS fitters who are shocking!

I know a couple of farriers I wouldn't let loose on my horse too.

More than a few BHS trainers who I would not recommend for lessons.

Qualifications are only part of any story.

 

[Winger23man]

You'd have to ask each fitter I would imagine. Many are bodyworkers who decide they want to fit saddles, but knowing how many bodyworkers have told my customers that the channel is causing issues because it's too narrow, and it's been a (provable, a customer of mine posted one such story just a week or two ago) rail/tree shape issue, I'll leave that one to your imagination.

Please don’t leave it there what do you mean by a rail/tree issue

 

[sbloom]

you sound like a responsible fitter and one that does what they are supposed to do and doesn’t cut corners

You can read all about me all over here and on the web, but you can also find out about lots of other fitters and how they deal with difficult cases. I will have people out there that think I tried to take short cuts without doubt, you can't please all the people all the time and although in many cases I'll bend over backwards for customers sometimes it's those very same customers who go on to trash you.

Customer one who I had gone way above and beyond for (sometimes not charging her in full, lending her things, long visits discussing his issues, referring her to other experts) and who had previously written glowing reports - "X saddle brand killed my horse" - I kid you not!

Customer two who gave me sleepless nights and I also went above and beyond for. If you'd spoken this person a few weeks ago you'd have probably been offended at her comments. Yet last week - "I feel awful that I didn’t trust Steph enough with her opinion that he needed some sort of remedial work. Please can you except my apology and I would like to send a review on your website if possible and explain the issues I had so it can help other people with there horses who are going through a similar thing."

 

[Winger23man]

I know a couple of SMS fitters who are shocking!

I know a couple of farriers I wouldn't let loose on my horse too.

More than a few BHS trainers who I would not recommend for lessons.

Qualifications are only part of any story.

That is true in any field organisation however now I go by better more wise recommendations

 

[sbloom]

Please don’t leave it there what do you mean by a rail/tree issue

There are a million different things that can be wrong with a saddle fit and many of them come down to tree shape. Any diagram of an English tree should indicate the rails/bars, read, learn, read some more. You don't have to be able to fit a saddle, but it's good to be able to have a conversation with a fitter. Understand something of tree shape and you will have much better success with saddle fitters.

 

[Winger23man]

You can read all about me all over here and on the web, but you can also find out about lots of other fitters and how they deal with difficult cases. I will have people out there that think I tried to take short cuts without doubt, you can't please all the people all the time and although in many cases I'll bend over backwards for customers sometimes it's those very same customers who go on to trash you.

Customer one who I had gone way above and beyond for (sometimes not charging her in full, lending her things, long visits discussing his issues, referring her to other experts) and who had previously written glowing reports - "X saddle brand killed my horse" - I kid you not!

Customer two who gave me sleepless nights and I also went above and beyond for. If you'd spoken this person a few weeks ago you'd have probably been offended at her comments. Yet last week - "I feel awful that I didn’t trust Steph enough with her opinion that he needed some sort of remedial work. Please can you except my apology and I would like to send a review on your website if possible and explain the issues I had so it can help other people with there horses who are going through a similar thing."

I know you can’t please everyone and there will be disagreements however there is doing the right thing and doing the wrong thing. This fitter IMO is doing the wrong thing and is shocking at their job doing research on them had shown more people in my position drawn into her flannel and fob off answers leaving one horse I now know of since posting with terrible muscle wasting due to poor saddle fit

 

[Winger23man]

I'm sure you're right, yet one fitter trained this way was immediately out describing herself as "fully qualified" and fitting all brands of saddle. She and I had a few online set-tos until she stopped with this BS.

This fitter claims they are fully qualified yet have absolutely no formal qualifications and still main

I'm sure you're right, yet one fitter trained this way was immediately out describing herself as "fully qualified" and fitting all brands of saddle. She and I had a few online set-tos until she stopped with this BS.

this fitters website I have just looked at says qualified and approved yet they have no formal qualifications to fit saddles flock them

 

[sbloom]

I don't think it's illegal as such to use the word qualified, though interestingly a qualification, to be correct, should be like a degree or an NVQ and should be offered by different organisations, which technically makes all saddle fitting qualifications not actual qualifications!

But in this country we do accept that qualified generally means SMS or MSFC and I do think fitters should be taken to task as it's misleading. They are "accredited" to fit SC. I once had someone slander me accusing me of saying I was qualified, so it goes both ways. I've never said to anyone I'm qualified! Honestly, being a saddle fitter isn't easy!

 

[Winger23man]

There are a million different things that can be wrong with a saddle fit and many of them come down to tree shape. Any diagram of an English tree should indicate the rails/bars, read, learn, read some more. You don't have to be able to fit a saddle, but it's good to be able to have a conversation with a fitter. Understand something of tree shape and you will have much better success with saddle fitters.

Thank you. However I do feel that when you buy anything sofa car you will ask a number of questions but are paying for the “fully qualified experienced expert “ to guide you to the right decision based on what you are wanting. I have never in 40 years had a detailed thread to needle chat about exactly what I want in a saddle save to say pony not forward can I have a dressage saddle deep seat - standard for a dressage saddle- big knee blocks
As a buyer you are paying for the saddle fitters experience and expertise and knowledge From this poor experience I have certainly learnt a great deal

 

[Winger23man]

I don't think it's illegal as such to use the word qualified, though interestingly a qualification, to be correct, should be like a degree or an NVQ and should be offered by different organisations, which technically makes all saddle fitting qualifications not actual qualifications!

But in this country we do accept that qualified generally means SMS or MSFC and I do think fitters should be taken to task as it's misleading. They are "accredited" to fit SC. I once had someone slander me accusing me of saying I was qualified, so it goes both ways. I've never said to anyone I'm qualified! Honestly, being a saddle fitter isn't easy!

No it’s not illegal to use the term but it’s extremely misleading it should be authorised to use the SC saddles or whatever. There is a difference between qualified and authorised. What is shocking is there is little come back on these people who get it wrong

 

[sbloom]

I would then be telling you that a deep seat and big blocks can cause more problems than they'd solve...very few people are aware of this. However, it's never too late to learn, as I say, there's a lot you can find online. We need to know about a good foot, a good diet, about the horse's intrinsic nature, about saddles....to get the best from our professionals and our horses. Don't rely 100% on professionals.

 

[TPO]

Interesting not meaning to sound rude but how can you learn to flock in one day. Flocking is a crucial part of saddle fitter and on sms standards it’s a 4 day course with an exam

You can't but it's a starter for ten for a complete newbie. If you already know how to flock then it's additional training as serge panels aren't common and SC use (or used to use) a different type of wool than most standard leather saddles. So it was just getting a feel for new materials under supervision of the people who make the saddles daily.

Honestly flocking isn't rocket science and practice makes perfect. There's money to be made charging people for to learn it. The person who came with me had never flocked before, the SC gave us both a bin bag of wool and some spare panels to take home & practice with after the day. IMO that was more valuable than the SMS criteria.

I've had several SMS fitters out who can't flock on site making thr whole experience unnecessarily drawn out and lengthy time without a saddle.

I wouldnt hold the SMS as the pinnacle of saddle fitting. People wouldn't be looking for alternatives if SMS did such a good job.

With English saddles every bad fitting I've had has been from an SMS fitter. I've worked alongside some (I wasn't a fitter) and they were awful as the complaints I handled daily were testament to. However lots of people on here still recommend her/the company.

I do think buyers have to take some responsibility and know the basics at least. The saddle fitter can only work with what they see on the day and the feedback that they get. If someone says it's OK and they are happy then pay you can understand some confusion when further down the line there are claims it doesn't fit.

Not meaning your case OP but there are threads of thst ilk on here regularly. I was nearly caught out by the western saddler as they also left zero paperwork, kept no records themself and were impossible to contact (as in read but didn't reply to messages and wouldn't answer their phone). It's only because they instructed the saddle to be made with a "bespoke" adjustment to the saddle, that the factory could provide me with the instructions that they received, that wouldn't have fitted any horse that I had a case as the saddle was not fit for any purpose. If it had been a "normal" saddle it would have left me open to claims that the horse changed shape (because it took forever for the saddle to be made and sent to me despite the original timescalthat t she sold me on ?). So yeah, been there.

When I did bodywork I'd also come across badly fitting saddles and have the owner badmouth X for fitting them. On further investigation it would come to light that X fitted the saddle *to a different horse* or that X fitted the saddle 3yrs ago ans they'd never had it checked since. It's far too easy to sully someone's name especially in these days with social media.

 

[Winger23man]

You can't but it's a starter for ten for a complete newbie. If you already know how to flock then it's additional training as serge panels aren't common and SC use (or used to use) a different type of wool than most standard leather saddles. So it was just getting a feel for new materials under supervision of the people who make the saddles daily.

Honestly flocking isn't rocket science and practice makes perfect. There's money to be made charging people for to learn it. The person who came with me had never flocked before, the SC gave us both a bin bag of wool and some spare panels to take home & practice with after the day. IMO that was more valuable than the SMS criteria.

I've had several SMS fitters out who can't flock on site making thr whole experience unnecessarily drawn out and lengthy time without a saddle.

I wouldnt hold the SMS as the pinnacle of saddle fitting. People wouldn't be looking for alternatives if SMS did such a good job.

With English saddles every bad fitting I've had has been from an SMS fitter. I've worked alongside some (I wasn't a fitter) and they were awful as the complaints I handled daily were testament to. However lots of people on here still recommend her/the company.

I do think buyers have to take some responsibility and know the basics at least. The saddle fitter can only work with what they see on the day and the feedback that they get. If someone says it's OK and they are happy then pay you can understand some confusion when further down the line there are claims it doesn't fit.

Not meaning your case OP but there are threads of thst ilk on here regularly. I was nearly caught out by the western saddler as they also left zero paperwork, kept no records themself and were impossible to contact (as in read but didn't reply to messages and wouldn't answer their phone). It's only because they instructed the saddle to be made with a "bespoke" adjustment to the saddle, that the factory could provide me with the instructions that they received, that wouldn't have fitted any horse that I had a case as the saddle was not fit for any purpose. If it had been a "normal" saddle it would have left me open to claims that the horse changed shape (because it took forever for the saddle to be made and sent to me despite the original timescalthat t she sold me on ?). So yeah, been there.

When I did bodywork I'd also come across badly fitting saddles and have the owner badmouth X for fitting them. On further investigation it would come to light that X fitted the saddle *to a different horse* or that X fitted the saddle 3yrs ago ans they'd never had it checked since. It's far too easy to sully someone's name especially in these days with social media.

Interesting as I said I wasn’t given any paperwork and have been refused sight of it as it’s of no use to me

You can't but it's a starter for ten for a complete newbie. If you already know how to flock then it's additional training as serge panels aren't common and SC use (or used to use) a different type of wool than most standard leather saddles. So it was just getting a feel for new materials under supervision of the people who make the saddles daily.

Honestly flocking isn't rocket science and practice makes perfect. There's money to be made charging people for to learn it. The person who came with me had never flocked before, the SC gave us both a bin bag of wool and some spare panels to take home & practice with after the day. IMO that was more valuable than the SMS criteria.

I've had several SMS fitters out who can't flock on site making thr whole experience unnecessarily drawn out and lengthy time without a saddle.

I wouldnt hold the SMS as the pinnacle of saddle fitting. People wouldn't be looking for alternatives if SMS did such a good job.

With English saddles every bad fitting I've had has been from an SMS fitter. I've worked alongside some (I wasn't a fitter) and they were awful as the complaints I handled daily were testament to. However lots of people on here still recommend her/the company.

I do think buyers have to take some responsibility and know the basics at least. The saddle fitter can only work with what they see on the day and the feedback that they get. If someone says it's OK and they are happy then pay you can understand some confusion when further down the line there are claims it doesn't fit.

Not meaning your case OP but there are threads of thst ilk on here regularly. I was nearly caught out by the western saddler as they also left zero paperwork, kept no records themself and were impossible to contact (as in read but didn't reply to messages and wouldn't answer their phone). It's only because they instructed the saddle to be made with a "bespoke" adjustment to the saddle, that the factory could provide me with the instructions that they received, that wouldn't have fitted any horse that I had a case as the saddle was not fit for any purpose. If it had been a "normal" saddle it would have left me open to claims that the horse changed shape (because it took forever for the saddle to be made and sent to me despite the original timescalthat t she sold me on ?). So yeah, been there.

When I did bodywork I'd also come across badly fitting saddles and have the owner badmouth X for fitting them. On further investigation it would come to light that X fitted the saddle *to a different horse* or that X fitted the saddle 3yrs ago ans they'd never had it checked since. It's far too easy to sully someone's name especially in these days with social media.

as I mentioned I wasn’t provided any paperwork save for 3 receipts that have scant info on and have been refused copies of any paperwork the fitter completed as it’s of no benefit to me. I have no idea what measurements have been taken from my horse to produce this saddle that slips like butter

 

[SO1]

Interesting so could it be that OP told saddle fitter what she wanted. Saddler got it made for OP as requested but that had saddle fitter been more knowledgeable she would have known what was requested could have been problematic and difficult to fit and told OP to order something different.

I would then be telling you that a deep seat and big blocks can cause more problems than they'd solve...very few people are aware of this. However, it's never too late to learn, as I say, there's a lot you can find online. We need to know about a good foot, a good diet, about the horse's intrinsic nature, about saddles....to get the best from our professionals and our horses. Don't rely 100% on professionals.

 

[Winger23man]

Interesting so could it be that OP told saddle fitter what she wanted. Saddler got it made for OP as requested but that had saddle fitter been more knowledgeable she would have known what was requested could have been problematic and difficult to fit and told OP to order something different.

I did tell the fitter what I wanted and as I’ve said I paid for her expertise knowledge and honesty about what was and wasn’t achievable My msm fitter is very honest about what can and can’t be done and when I’ve presented the saddle from the other fitter they just laughed and said that would never had fitted my horse

 

[TPO]

Interesting as I said I wasn’t given any paperwork and have been refused sight of it as it’s of no use to me

as I mentioned I wasn’t provided any paperwork save for 3 receipts that have scant info on and have been refused copies of any paperwork the fitter completed as it’s of no benefit to me. I have no idea what measurements have been taken from my horse to produce this saddle that slips like butter

??‍ can't help

I wasn't aware that it was a requirement but certainly way back in 2009 when I attended SC they provided an A3 carbon pad for recording templates and sending to them to get a saddle made or adjusted. One for fitter, one for SC and one for client. They also provided the info leaflets but there was no mention of this information being a legal requirement to provide.

As sbloom has said people in the past have "used" fitters and then purchased saddles cheaper elsewhere. SC saddles don't hold their value second hand and there's always someone with a cheapy off ebay wanting it made to fit when no adjustment will make the tree fit as sbloom explained. So yes I know other fitters, mainly sms, who don't leave anything with the customer.

When I was doing McTimoney-Corley training we were specifically told not to leave anything with the client. It leaves things open to interpretation and they gave an example of how one person's notes ended up with them being sued/taken to court because of a scribbled note they made to themselves that was on the carbon copy.

Then I did EBW training and we were told how to fill in record sheets and to always leave a copy with the owner/client.

When I've used physios and bodyworkers it's been a mix of being left notes/emailed a record and not getting anything. Although I appreciate that's different from buying goods. Now I'm thinking about it no saddler has ever given me any paperwork other than a receipt.

 

[Winger23man]

??‍ can't help

I wasn't aware that it was a requirement but certainly way back in 2009 when I attended SC they provided an A3 carbon pad for recording templates and sending to them to get a saddle made or adjusted. One for fitter, one for SC and one for client. They also provided the info leaflets but there was no mention of this information being a legal requirement to provide.

As sbloom has said people in the past have "used" fitters and then purchased saddles cheaper elsewhere. SC saddles don't hold their value second hand and there's always someone with a cheapy off ebay wanting it made to fit when no adjustment will make the tree fit as sbloom explained. So yes I know other fitters, mainly sms, who don't leave anything with the customer.

When I was doing McTimoney-Corley training we were specifically told not to leave anything with the client. It leaves things open to interpretation and they gave an example of how one person's notes ended up with them being sued/taken to court because of a scribbled note they made to themselves that was on the carbon copy.

Then I did EBW training and we were told how to fill in record sheets and to always leave a copy with the owner/client.

When I've used physios and bodyworkers it's been a mix of being left notes/emailed a record and not getting anything. Although I appreciate that's different from buying goods. Now I'm thinking about it no saddler has ever given me any paperwork other than a receipt.

I not sure why it would be an issue giving a copy of the template and that the buyer used it to purchase elsewhere you have paid for the fitters services at that point nothing else Crazy to do that in my opinion as the horse may have changed shape and it could be incorrect. There is a comment on the template about using the template which puts any fault on the buyer if they use it so I’m not sure what the issue is. More fool the person who try’s to buy a saddle with it

 

[sbloom]

I not sure why it would be an issue giving a copy of the template and that the buyer used it to purchase elsewhere you have paid for the fitters services at that point nothing else Crazy to do that in my opinion as the horse may have changed shape and it could be incorrect. There is a comment on the template about using the template which puts any fault on the buyer if they use it so I’m not sure what the issue is. More fool the person who try’s to buy a saddle with it

Because it takes our time, and therefore our money, to deal with people who come after us, even if they don't have a leg to stand on. We do everything possible to avoid this happening. The lady that recommended I don't give out templates was a previous president of the SMS.

 

[TPO]

Honestly I've just read your other threads so will step away now.

There are two sides to every story and your side has changed across the threads. A fair amount of time has passed, you admit to having agreed the saddle fitted at two points and seem to be fixating on, what are to me, odd irrelevant points.

If you feel wronged seek proper legal advice and pursue it that way.

 

[Winger23man]

Because it takes our time, and therefore our money, to deal with people who come after us, even if they don't have a leg to stand on. We do everything possible to avoid this happening. The lady that recommended I don't give out templates was a previous president of the SMS.

If you do everything by the book and you gave the template with a written caveat disclaimer that is signed by both parties they don’t have a leg to stand on and you can have a stock but tweaked response ready for people that challenge you
Again I don’t see why it’s an issue to provide it. If anything if they claim the horse hadn’t changed shape your template shows that

 

[Tiddlypom]

For general info, this is the receipt for my most recent saddle purchase in 2019. This is an excellent qualified fitter and seller of various makes of saddles. The fitting was done in the presence of my chiro vet at the saddle fitter's own premises in her indoor school. They regularly work together on trickier cases.

Lots of info on there, including the horse's history and the template outlines. I also got pages of advice and consumer info.



And most importantly - the supplied saddle fits her like a dream! I trialed a dressage version of the saddle with the same tree at this fitting, and went on to order and buy a GPD.

 

[sbloom]

If you do everything by the book and you gave the template with a written caveat disclaimer that is signed by both parties they don’t have a leg to stand on and you can have a stock but tweaked response ready for people that challenge you
Again I don’t see why it’s an issue to provide it. If anything if they claim the horse hadn’t changed shape your template shows that

If only it was that simple. Dealing with customer complaints takes a lot of time, whether they have a leg to stand on or not, whatever paperwork you gave them or not. My heavy load of initial paperwork on booking is to try to weed these customers before I go out to them.

I'm done arguing.

 

[Winger23man]

In slight defense of the SC they don't train, or claim to train, people how to fit saddles to the horse. The training day is all about using the template machine to adjust the saddles.

Do you know how much a saddle company tree can be changed and what parts?