Saddle fit question.

[scruffyponies]

It seems impossible to find a saddle to fit him. I mean, I have dozens in the tack room. How hard can it be!

14hh NF stallion. Unusually narrow for the breed, with well set-back shoulders, and just a little bit of 'stud chub' to the back of his non-existent withers. His back and ribs are lovely and wide, and his back pretty much flat.

The best I can find is a narrow-med with a flat tree and a slightly cut-back head, designed for a wither he doesn't have. I could fit my packed lunch in the space between saddle and withers.
The points rest correctly just behind his shoulder, bearing surfaces of the panels are in the right place, no bridging or rocking, the saddle sits level, doesn't move around and feels good to ride in. Would I be correct in thinking that the fact that the pommel doesn't follow the line of the horse over the wither doesn't really matter?

 

[Littlewills]

I cant imagine any horse ever needing a narrow medium saddle, so I'd be concerned that it really doesnt fit at all.

 

[scruffyponies]

I cant imagine any horse ever needing a narrow medium saddle, so I'd be concerned that it really doesnt fit at all.

What an odd thing to say - you can't imagine a pony being narrower than average? I can assure you that horses come in many sizes, and some of them are indeed narrow.

Edited to add that I was thinking of a friend's arab x welsh mare years ago as I wrote this post - she was like sitting on a razor blade.

 

[milliepops]

I cant imagine any horse ever needing a narrow medium saddle, so I'd be concerned that it really doesnt fit at all.

yes does seem unlikely, even when he was very very under muscled my skinny TB was in a medium tree.

 

[scruffyponies]

The saddle may well be a medium tree (it isn't marked), and certainly isn't a 'narrow' - but it is narrower than I would usually describe as 'medium'.

The problem with this pony is that there is very little margin of error between too narrow and too wide. His shoulder is narrow, but his wither is wide, if that makes any sense. Anyhow, the bearing surface of the points on this one are in the right place, and at the right angle, but with a pommel head which would accommodate a guinea pig on top of his wither.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

Most native breeds are really wide I can't see a medium width saddle fitting him, you could measure the front where the saddle sits with a flexi curve or a coat hanger, then trace it on some paper and sit the saddle on it's front over the tracing, you will then get some idea if it's going to fit, I find flat backed horses always seem to be awkward to fit as saddles just move about more easily, I have a flat backed wide Arab and I have to have his saddle checked a lot and he has to have a certain girth either no elastic or elastic both ends.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

If it's sitting that high on his back it's too narrow.

 

[scruffyponies]

I did say his shape isn't typical for the breed. I currently have 3 other NF's, so can compare directly. If I put their saddles on him, they pitch forwards like a bloody slide!

 

[scruffyponies]

If it's sitting that high on his back it's too narrow.

There is a difference between a saddle 'sitting high', i.e. pommel higher than cantle (which it isn't) and having a high arch. The gap is due to the shape of the saddle, which is built to accommodate a wither, not because it is too narrow. The saddle sit level on his back.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

There is a difference between a saddle 'sitting high', i.e. pommel higher than cantle (which it isn't) and having a high arch. The gap is due to the shape of the saddle, which is built to accommodate a wither, not because it is too narrow. The saddle sit level on his back.

Then the shape is wrong it shouldn't be that high he would probably suit a flatter shaped tree that will sit in a more close contact way to his back.

 

[scruffyponies]

Then the shape is wrong it shouldn't be that high he would probably suit a flatter shaped tree that will sit in a more close contact way to his back.

Of course. The problem seems to be finding one where the angle is narrow enough for his shoulders without being so narrow in the gullet that it is way too small for his fleshy mutton wither. As I said, what I have is a compromise, and the best fit of anything I have tried.
Don't get me wrong - I can put something on his back which LOOKS better... but it then collapses forwards as soon as you start riding because a 'flatter shaped tree' usually means a wider tree. I can also 'make do' by adding dead sheep, but I don't want to.

Back to my original question - is there any reason why (other than aesthetics) a saddle which fits on the bearing surfaces but gives excess wither clearance, would give a problem to the horse or rider.

 

[Elno]

Can you post a photo? Both of him without and with the said saddle. It's much easier to help when you see the horse in front of you.

 

[scruffyponies]

Here's my attempt at comparing his shape with a hypothetical 'medium' width horse with a wither.
You can see that the slightest pinching on his wide, fleshy wither is going to be very bad, but the angle behind the shoulder doesn't give you much to work with, especially if you want to keep his shoulder free. Not many saddles his shape, as most witherless ponies are also wide.

 

[Elno]

The reason could be that the saddle is designed with the shark fin withered horse in mind, with for instance a so called "cut back" in the pommel to accomodate a larger wither. When you sit in the saddle see how many fingers you can squeeze in between pommel and wither, both horisontally and vertically. It should be minimum one horisontally and 2-3 vertically.

You can see the problem in a different light-how often have you not heard about saddle not fitting a horse with a well developed wither when all other parametres checks out (like gullet size, length, bearing surfaces etc)?

 

[Elno]

View attachment 63370
Here's my attempt at comparing his shape with a hypothetical 'medium' width horse with a wither.
You can see that the slightest pinching on his wide, fleshy wither is going to be very bad, but the angle behind the shoulder doesn't give you much to work with, especially if you want to keep his shoulder free. Not many saddles his shape, as most witherless ponies are also wide.

You need a saddle with a U - shaped gullet then.

 

[scruffyponies]

He's the chap in my avatar. Saddle looks too far forward in the pic, but it's behind his shoulder, and we've just come back from a couple of miles trot and canter without stirrups, so it has had chance to 'settle'. He was moving freely - his usual daydreaming self, in fact, but then he is not fussy and will ride OK in saddles which obviously don't fit, so no help from him!

 

[scruffyponies]

You need a saddle with a U - shaped gullet then.

Whilst I'm aware they exist, the only ones I have ever seen are fairly wide.

 

[Carlosmum]

Without stating the obvious, have you had a professional fitter to look?

 

[Elno]

He looks wider than a medium. But the saddle looks level, although too far forward, the gullet bars can't possible sit two fingers behind his shoulder, at least not in that photo. A saddle that has been pushed forward after movement is usually also too narrow.
Have you the possibility to measure his gullet size/degree of angle behind his shoulder? That is usually a big help. By the look of it he is probably a 100 degrees at least, probably more. There are templates from Thorowgood for instance. You can print them out and then lay a wire over the area being measured and then trace the outline on the template. I would truly be amazed if he is anything less than a wide, honestly.

 

[MereChristmas]

Hopefully you already know this but the measurement with a bendy wire is, I think, taken 2 fingers width behind the back edge of the shoulder blade, not over the highest point of the wither.

 

[Elno]

Hopefully you already know this but the measurement with a bendy wire is, I think, taken 2 fingers width behind the back edge of the shoulder blade, not over the highest point of the wither.

That is also what I've been taught.

 

[Littlewills]

He's the chap in my avatar. Saddle looks too far forward in the pic, but it's behind his shoulder, and we've just come back from a couple of miles trot and canter without stirrups, so it has had chance to 'settle'. He was moving freely - his usual daydreaming self, in fact, but then he is not fussy and will ride OK in saddles which obviously don't fit, so no help from him!
View attachment 63371View attachment 63372

That doesnt remotely fit. The fact its slid up his neck is enough to tell you that. When you do find one that fits you will find a C shaped girth will help as he has a very forward girth groove.

 

[scruffyponies]

He looks wider than a medium.

He does, doesn't he. Trust me, he isn't. That lovely wide back is very deceptive. It's most noticeable if you ride him bareback, and especially compared with other NF's the same size.

saddle that has been pushed forward after movement is usually also too narrow

Yep - that bothers me, although any wider and they simply sink in front. Not sure yet if I seated it too far forward, or if it will ride differently with stirrups. It doesn't look right for sure. Saddle is quite forward cut and his mane sticks up a lot, both of which don't help. He isn't as cresty as he looks either. That's mostly hair.

I haven't put a wire over him. It would be interesting to check the angle.

 

[Elno]

He does, doesn't he. Trust me, he isn't. That lovely wide back is very deceptive. It's most noticeable if you ride him bareback, and especially compared with other NF's the same size.


Yep - that bothers me, although any wider and they simply sink in front. Not sure yet if I seated it too far forward, or if it will ride differently with stirrups. It doesn't look right for sure. Saddle is quite forward cut and his mane sticks up a lot, both of which don't help. He isn't as cresty as he looks either. That's mostly hair.

I haven't put a wire over him. It would be interesting to check the angle.

I really think you should ? It gives a good idea at least.

 

[Shysmum]

Go treeless! I swear by my Barefoot Cheyenne.

 

[scruffyponies]

More photos, after 12 or so miles, this time with stirrups, which has made a difference. Still have room for a small pet under the pommel, but I would say the panels are sitting nicely. Please ignore the whip... bad habit, but it's such a convenient place to stick it!

 

[Elno]

To me it looks (by the pictures at least, I understand that pictures and angles can be misleading, and I apologies before hand) that the saddle is tipped backwards and that the bars are digging in into his shoulders at their base. It just doesn't seem to fit ?

If you feel along the front of the saddle down along his shoulders with your palm to the horse, is it an even pressure or is there more room/tighter somewhere?

 

[sbloom]

What an odd thing to say - you can't imagine a pony being narrower than average? I can assure you that horses come in many sizes, and some of them are indeed narrow.

As a professional saddle fitter no horse or pony with half decent muscle should look narrower than a medium and personally I've yet to fit any horse with a medium, and in 12 years of specialising in natives I could count on the fingers of one hand the number of MW, I can't even remember a single one.

There is a difference between a saddle 'sitting high', i.e. pommel higher than cantle (which it isn't) and having a high arch. The gap is due to the shape of the saddle, which is built to accommodate a wither, not because it is too narrow. The saddle sit level on his back.

He's the chap in my avatar. Saddle looks too far forward in the pic, but it's behind his shoulder, and we've just come back from a couple of miles trot and canter without stirrups, so it has had chance to 'settle'. He was moving freely - his usual daydreaming self, in fact, but then he is not fussy and will ride OK in saddles which obviously don't fit, so no help from him!
View attachment 63371View attachment 63372

This saddle IS on the shoulder, the tree points should be 2" behind the back of the shoulder blade, there's no way these are. Moving it back will make it more level, as it is tipping back. Look at how the deepest point is almost behind the saddle flaps, your weight is all going through the back 1/3 or so of the tree.

Yep - that bothers me, although any wider and they simply sink in front. Not sure yet if I seated it too far forward, or if it will ride differently with stirrups. It doesn't look right for sure.

No, it's really not right. And if you move it back it will almost certainly be too long.

Saddles can drop in front because they are pivoting on too curvy rails and this is almost certainly the case here, and in any saddles that look similar. He is also croup high in the saddle area so will easkly cause saddles to be pommel low. The former is why you end up with too narrow a tree width, in part, because it's propping the front up. The latter I see even with experienced saddle fitters, I see it discussed in professional FB groups, croup high slightly curvy back....curvy tree! Nope, as flat a tree as you can, front gussets to take a decent amount of flocking, as short a seat size as possible to give a short footprint. A very short panel design helps with this, and can even be very low at the back, to the extent that you can find old fashioned plain panels with no gusset.

Wider, flatter tree, wide rails, decent channel width, they exist.

 

[Lipglosspukka]

Who is he? I don't recognise him.

 

[scruffyponies]

Thanks both. The rails are pretty flat on this saddle, which is one of the things I was looking for - there's no rock whatsoever.
The pressure is even down the panels at the shoulder. I guess I need to look for something even flatter.
For a pony which looks perfectly normal shaped he is proving very awkward. Lovely saddles of the 'tend to fit everything' type just don't quite sit right on him.

Interesting point about the old-fashioned panels - I have a VERY old pony saddle of the flat seat type which has no gusset. Is that the kind of thing you're thinking of SB?