Saddle fit + wonky pony + hormonal pre teen daughter = loosing my marbles!

SEL said:
It doesn't look like her bum and legs would be in alignment - I know you've changed the stirrup bar but I'm not surprised she's out of balance.

I hope you can find what you need. A different seat would really help
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No definitely not in alignment. I suspect she's been pushing her lower legs back to be in hip to heel alignment which has been then tipping her upper body forwards and creating this unbalanced feeling. Poor thing, for months she thought she was just riding badly because instructors kept on at her to put her shoulders back! I feel bad not picking up on sooner it but the Wow fitter was happy with the set up and her owner said that's how her previous riders had it set up too. Personally I don't think they are a great saddle for kids who are not experienced enough to know how things are supposed to feel and explain what feels wrong.

Thanks for an experienced opinion!
 
lrw0250 said:
My friend has taken the number to send to Wow to find out which seat it is. We know its from 2016 on a flat y bar, has plastic stirrup bars and we suspect a leather tree. I thought it was flat but friend thinks it's a deep which has just been really pommel low.

I do have a photo of the saddle on the pony from last summer pre fitter visiting but ignore the girth as this was before her owner got a new sternum plate for the girth as the original one had broken. At this point I suspect there was practically no air in the bags as the fitter said they were pretty much flat when she came out a few months after this was taken.


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That looks like a shallow seat - which has a lower cantle but should be the same shape as a deep seat - which has a problem that I've come across often with the shallow seat. It simply has far too much padding depth at the twist. Or it might be a deep, but in that case it has way too much seat padding, the profile is all wrong. I personally find the seats made like that impossible to sit in, and painful. I sent my first one (deep seat) back to have padding removed. So I can understand her problem. Padding in that area sits you up high but also prevents you getting your thigh down because it's too wide at the twist.

If it has plastic stirrup bars it's likely to be on a plastic tree as those things were introduced at the same time as far as I recollect. 2016 should also make it a plastic tree.
 
ycbm said:
That looks like a shallow seat - which has a lower cantle but should be the same shape as a deep seat - which has a problem that I've come across often with the shallow seat. It simply has far too much padding depth at the twist. Or it might be a deep, but in that case it has way too much seat padding, the profile is all wrong. I personally find the seats made like that impossible to sit in, and painful. I sent my first one (deep seat) back to have padding removed. So I can understand her problem. Padding in that area sits you up high but also prevents you getting your thigh down because it's too wide at the twist.

If it has plastic stirrup bars it's likely to be on a plastic tree as those things were introduced at the same time as far as I recollect. 2016 should also make it a plastic tree.
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Thanks, that could possibly explain further why we are having issues. If there's too much padding at the twist it's adding to the issue of a wide pony and a skinny, leggy child struggling to get her legs around the pony.
 
lrw0250 said:
I'd certainly be happy if I didn't need to ferry them around to comps! This may well be what we end up doing, just having lessons and hacking at home but I do worry about the long term effects of a bareback pad on our ponies back due to the pressure points of the stirrups.
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I ride mine in pony pads, and the physio and chiro is always very happy with their backs. I do all sorts in them too - hacking, xc, sj, showing etc.
 
I'm categorically not an expert and almost definitely know less than SEL and YCBM but in the photo that you posted the balance just looks all wrong to me. You can see the saddle is tipped forward and if you combine that with the stirrups being on the front bar I'm not surprised your daughter was going out the front door at times. Even with the saddle on you can tell that the pony's confirmation is challenging but it does sound like your friend has done a lot to help. A narrower headplate, a more suitable seat and moving to the back bar could all make a big difference I think.

The other thing I wondered is whether there are velcro blocks in the flaps that could be moved into a more suitable position for your daughter to provide her with more leg support? If not maybe you could either get some or maybe switch to a larger block if that might help and that wouldn't be too expensive either. I do also know what you mean about maybe the Wow being possibly just too big for your daughter though, she looks tiny in the photos and I can see where maybe a size 0 everything could still be too big for her. Those types of flaps can be quite generous in their proportions too so maybe their just too big for her legs and that's not going to help either.

With all of that said I do wonder if maybe there is an option to get a different fitter out to have a look if there is one in your area. The fit could definitely be better than that for the pony and maybe there are further tweaks that are necessary to make it more comfortable for your daughter. I know that isn't always a possibility though and it could end up being prohibitively expensive.


If you really can't make it work with a Wow then I think I'd be looking at a treeless saddle given the pony's confirmation. I think anything with a tree would be a challenge to say the least, although there might be some more specialist fitters who might be up for a challenge. I don't know anything about treeless saddles but maybe something a bit smaller would suit your daughter better too, although obviously that could then present its own challenges if she suddenly decides to have a massive growth spurt!
 
Really really outside the box… try a western saddle, long flat trees and places you close to the horse.

You can’t jump in them but you can get involved in all the western competitions…
 
HelenBack said:
I'm categorically not an expert and almost definitely know less than SEL and YCBM but in the photo that you posted the balance just looks all wrong to me. You can see the saddle is tipped forward and if you combine that with the stirrups being on the front bar I'm not surprised your daughter was going out the front door at times. Even with the saddle on you can tell that the pony's confirmation is challenging but it does sound like your friend has done a lot to help. A narrower headplate, a more suitable seat and moving to the back bar could all make a big difference I think.

The other thing I wondered is whether there are velcro blocks in the flaps that could be moved into a more suitable position for your daughter to provide her with more leg support? If not maybe you could either get some or maybe switch to a larger block if that might help and that wouldn't be too expensive either. I do also know what you mean about maybe the Wow being possibly just too big for your daughter though, she looks tiny in the photos and I can see where maybe a size 0 everything could still be too big for her. Those types of flaps can be quite generous in their proportions too so maybe their just too big for her legs and that's not going to help either.

With all of that said I do wonder if maybe there is an option to get a different fitter out to have a look if there is one in your area. The fit could definitely be better than that for the pony and maybe there are further tweaks that are necessary to make it more comfortable for your daughter. I know that isn't always a possibility though and it could end up being prohibitively expensive.


If you really can't make it work with a Wow then I think I'd be looking at a treeless saddle given the pony's confirmation. I think anything with a tree would be a challenge to say the least, although there might be some more specialist fitters who might be up for a challenge. I don't know anything about treeless saddles but maybe something a bit smaller would suit your daughter better too, although obviously that could then present its own challenges if she suddenly decides to have a massive growth spurt!
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Thanks for the thoughts. We are starting with the headplate and the change to the back bar before we go down the route of a new seat as I fear finding a suitable one is going to be a real challenge. There are already quite big chunky velcro blocks on the saddle - they are in as knee blocks but my friend thinks they are actually repurposed calf blocks! We are going to try replacing them with something more suitable to see if that helps. We have a lesson booked with our regular instructor (who hates the Wow saddle) on Sunday so will see if I can convince daughter to ride in it so I can take some photos for more feedback.

Although very slight with no rear end to take up seat space, daughter is long in the leg. Our traditional saddle fitter who has been looking at tree'd options for us suggested nothing below 16" to accommodate her long thigh until she outgrows the pony.

If all that fails I suspect we will be going down the pad route and seeing how much we can get away with doing in it.
 
follysienna said:
I ride mine in pony pads, and the physio and chiro is always very happy with their backs. I do all sorts in them too - hacking, xc, sj, showing etc.
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What kind do you use? We are currently using a borrowed Shires Aviemore with a sheepskin numnah underneath and have limited jumping to 60cm showjumping and have not tried xc yet.
 
lrw0250 said:
What kind do you use? We are currently using a borrowed Shires Aviemore with a sheepskin numnah underneath and have limited jumping to 60cm showjumping and have not tried xc yet.
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I use a heritage faith pad, but don't think they make them anymore. I know that Thorns and Posh pony pads are popular, and you can buy jumping style flaps to give more support. The only issue I have found is they're not allowed under BD rules, and I don't think they're allowed for pony club mounted games.

I feel for you, these awkward shaped ponies are a nightmare to fit!
 
follysienna said:
I use a heritage faith pad, but don't think they make them anymore. I know that Thorns and Posh pony pads are popular, and you can buy jumping style flaps to give more support. The only issue I have found is they're not allowed under BD rules, and I don't think they're allowed for pony club mounted games.

I feel for you, these awkward shaped ponies are a nightmare to fit!
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Thanks. BD totally not an issue for us! We do the odd games training session at PC but just for fun as neither pony or rider are keen enough to compete. Have been looking at a Guy Cantin jump pad if anyone has any experience of those?
 
Most modern saddles have to much padding for round ponies, the saddle sits on them like a pea on a drum, and not around them. I agree with your daughter.I once tried a saddle that seemed to fit on first trial but when we hacked out it tipped me forward so badly I almost lost control.
I haven't done the saddle fitting trial, it's worse than pulling teeth, for a long while, I used to loan out our ponies with tack and have actually bought a saddle that fitted the rider, the last one went out with a choice of two. Sometimes the saddle cost more than the price I paid for the pony.
If you are going to keep the pony I would accept that perhaps you are going to have to buy a used one, I find WHP for a child with long legs is better than GP, even for jumping, and it looks neater for dressage.
 
honetpot said:
Most modern saddles have to much padding for round ponies, the saddle sits on them like a pea on a drum, and not around them. I agree with your daughter.I once tried a saddle that seemed to fit on first trial but when we hacked out it tipped me forward so badly I almost lost control.
I haven't done the saddle fitting trial, it's worse than pulling teeth, for a long while, I used to loan out our ponies with tack and have actually bought a saddle that fitted the rider, the last one went out with a choice of two. Sometimes the saddle cost more than the price I paid for the pony.
If you are going to keep the pony I would accept that perhaps you are going to have to buy a used one, I find WHP for a child with long legs is better than GP, even for jumping, and it looks neater for dressage.
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The only plus point of this saddle is that it does fit the pony with her challenging confirmation because the airbags mould and can be adjusted.

A WH was what I initially wanted but a lot of opinions here seem to think that we won't ever get any traditional tree'd saddle to fit this pony.
 
@ycbm Wow have confirmed it is a shallow seat. Compared to the same seat shown on the Wow website it looks over padded to me. Screenshot_20240304_215825_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

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When I first started reading, I thought your daughter was going to be being a melodramatic teenager but having seen the photos I feel really sorry for her and completely agree. I would refuse to ride in that saddle too.

She's incredibly lucky to have you trying so hard to fix things, the Wow saddler who said that saddle was ok as it was in the photo you showed should be shot. A very simplistic way of looking at it, but I always look at saddles and think if you put a marble on it, where would the marble go, often they can be near the back or front of the saddle where with yours it would potentially have rolled off the front! If you look at the photo on the wow website, the marble would end up in the middle of the saddle, which is exactly where you'd want it - essentially the riders weight and balance is in the centre of the saddle. Once you've managed to get it to that stage then I'd try and persuade your daughter to have another go. Can you try and involve her in the fittings and searchings so that she can appreciate how difficult it is trying to get a saddle to work and hopefully get her back on side? Alternatively can you get a saddler with a load of saddles (ideally secondhand) so that your daughter can try them or at least see herself that the wow is the only option if she wants to go beyond a pad? You never know you might get really lucky and find something that works and then you could sell it when you return the pony.
 
Have you contacted WOW direct? A few good pics and perhaps videos may help - they are very helpful folk.
 
I think she might feel a bit more secure in a slightly more curved seat, I'm very slight a size 6 and I hate really flat saddles I feel like I'm just going to slide off.

My Louis has a flat back profile but I have a nice fairly deep dressage saddle for him that is so much better than the show saddle I had before.
 
Several thoughts.
lrw0250 said:
Photo from a few weeks ago in the Wow. It's a screenshot taken from a video of them cantering during a jump lesson. This is the typical position we get which results in instructors constantly telling her to sit up! Granted this was before the tweaks made yesterday..
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This and the other photo indicate the saddle is almost certainly too low in front, and that's scary to ride in when jumping, let alone comfortable.

lrw0250 said:
The only plus point of this saddle is that it does fit the pony with her challenging confirmation because the airbags mould and can be adjusted.

A WH was what I initially wanted but a lot of opinions here seem to think that we won't ever get any traditional tree'd saddle to fit this pony.
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If you're working with a generalist fitter who doesn't know much about the specialist brands they might say this, but it's much rarer than you'd think. I find most fitters have no clue about the saddles I fit.

Have you tried working with https://www.facebook.com/RidinginBalanceScotland with the Wow?
 
Squeak said:
When I first started reading, I thought your daughter was going to be being a melodramatic teenager but having seen the photos I feel really sorry for her and completely agree. I would refuse to ride in that saddle too.

She's incredibly lucky to have you trying so hard to fix things, the Wow saddler who said that saddle was ok as it was in the photo you showed should be shot. A very simplistic way of looking at it, but I always look at saddles and think if you put a marble on it, where would the marble go, often they can be near the back or front of the saddle where with yours it would potentially have rolled off the front! If you look at the photo on the wow website, the marble would end up in the middle of the saddle, which is exactly where you'd want it - essentially the riders weight and balance is in the centre of the saddle. Once you've managed to get it to that stage then I'd try and persuade your daughter to have another go. Can you try and involve her in the fittings and searchings so that she can appreciate how difficult it is trying to get a saddle to work and hopefully get her back on side? Alternatively can you get a saddler with a load of saddles (ideally secondhand) so that your daughter can try them or at least see herself that the wow is the only option if she wants to go beyond a pad? You never know you might get really lucky and find something that works and then you could sell it when you return the pony.
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I think this is our long term plan. Let her ride in the bareback but keep tweaking the Wow and also looking out for a suitable alternative in the meantime.
 
Caski said:
Have you contacted WOW direct? A few good pics and perhaps videos may help - they are very helpful folk.
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I am going to take photos of the pony tonight to show her confirmation along with the Wow on her, unmounted and mounted if daughter agrees!
 
I have emailed Wow to see if they have any suitable seats to sell second hand as I cannot find anything in the usual places such as Ebay and the Wow Facebook groups. I thinknits not even so much tge depth as she is fine in a totally unsupported bareback pad but the balance which is the issue. She did really like the seat on a little Dever WH we trialed but it wasn't right for the pony unfortunately.
 
sbloom said:
Several thoughts.


This and the other photo indicate the saddle is almost certainly too low in front, and that's scary to ride in when jumping, let alone comfortable.



If you're working with a generalist fitter who doesn't know much about the specialist brands they might say this, but it's much rarer than you'd think. I find most fitters have no clue about the saddles I fit.

Have you tried working with https://www.facebook.com/RidinginBalanceScotland with the Wow?
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Thanks @sbloom, was hoping you'd comment at some point! The Wow fitter you've mentioned is who we used about 6 months ago. I think the pony was carrying a bit more weight then from the summer and has narrowed over winter so that would explain the front dropping since then. I am disappointed however that while fitting the pony she didn't pick up on some other things which could have made a difference - stirrup position wrong for rider, foregirth pulling the saddle forward, sternum pad too big.

The non Wow fitter we've been working with fits various brands including AH but nothing they had second hand was suitable and new would be out of the budget that could be covered by the sale of the Wow..

If you want a challenge once you come north let me know!
 
Caski said:
A pic from behind standing at the tail may be useful, if pony doesn't mind.
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She's a sweetheart who really isn't bothered by most things! I took lots of photos tonight of the saddle on and daughter in it but we are having to use a thick pad until the narrower gullet arrives so they are not the best to get a clear view of the saddle fit. The good news is daughter rode in it without too much drama because its definitely sitting better since my friend adjusted it at the weekend.20240305_191544.jpg20240305_191557.jpg20240305_191526.jpg
 
^^^ well that's far better than the pony I have a WOW fitted to! There's no reason you shouldn't be able to get that in balance.

It is all about the fitter though. My first ever WOW on my big mare was a nightmare and I never felt in balance. When I look at how solid a job a different fitter did for the ponies I can see how the bigger mare's set up was never going to work.
 
A horse can look in good balance but the ribcage can be more tilted than it looks, and they can move in worse balance than they look. A saddle I fitted at the weekend was low in front till we worked out why he was going like a bag of spanners, swapped to his favoured girth and he moved differently, so the saddle sat in balance.

Even a rider can cause a saddle to sit down in front (for instance someone whose pelvis needs a lot of support in front), or to run forwards (busy seat, chair seat for example). He IS pretty asymmetric (https://stephaniebloomsaddlefitter.co.uk/blog-and-resources/wonky-donkeys), rotated in the ribcage, down to the right, which is a big factor in the balance he'll move in.

If you can get a saddle to sit more level then it will help, but if you can get him straighter and more level it will help with saddle fitting...tweak all areas :)
 
Has anyone mentioned Christ Lamfelle pads yet? Someone on here used to do everything in hers - shows, jumping the lot.
 
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