saddle fitting - use of front risers

[antigone]

Please could I pick the brains of all you knowledgeable saddle fitting people out there? This will be a long one please bear with me.....

I have recently bought a 14:3 cob mare that is slightly croup high. She has a proper wither (novelty for me) and her back is quite straight. Because of all the problems I have had with local saddle fitters over the years I decided to get a Heather Moffett Flexee saddle. These are synthetic saddles with a flexible leather tree but they use a wintec type metal gullet in the front. Nice serge panels flocked with wool. I really like heathers saddles.

She was measured for the gullet width - no problem. I was told that I needed a front riser to balance the saddle as she is croup high so I got a le mieux lambskin corrective pad. What concerns me is that with the saddlecloth and the riser pad is it making the gullet too narrow? I was always told not to use thick pads under correctly fitted saddles for this very reason. Without the riser the saddle is a bit down in the front.

The main reason this is bugging me is that she is not as forward going as she was when I first got her 4 months ago and she can also be a bit nappy at times. Then again she has had time to settle and work out that I am a bit of a soft touch - she is a typical piebald mare, lovely nature really but bossy and quite clever. I am a novice rider.

She has been seen by a veterinary physio and given the all clear and was given the once over by my vet when I bought her.

How do I make sure she is not uncomfortable?

 

[muddy_grey]

In past I have used the acavallo front riser pad with success. It is thicker at the front, but it isn't adjustable. I really like the antislip aspect too and use the pads anyway so when I needed a front riser it was an obvious choice for me.
Sheepskin and risers is quite a lot of bulk under the saddle, which would put off as I would feel too far from the horse.

 

[antigone]

Thank you. Yes, looking at those. I wondered if they would be less likely to go up the gullet.

 

[milliepops]

who measured her for the gullet plate and who told you you'd need a riser? Presumably if it was the same person they'd have taken the width of the riser into account?
FWIW I liked the look of the acavallo front riser but because it's not adjustable it was too much for my horse, and made my saddle bridge. I have an adjustable Mattes one now.

 

[Leo Walker]

Mines croup high, so he has a flat, short panelled saddle. It sits in front of the bit that starts to slope up, if that makes sense? That way there isnt any need to pad it. I'd be concerned it would cause issues. Its not something my saddler has ever suggested.

 

[antigone]

who measured her for the gullet plate and who told you you'd need a riser? Presumably if it was the same person they'd have taken the width of the riser into account?
FWIW I liked the look of the acavallo front riser but because it's not adjustable it was too much for my horse, and made my saddle bridge. I have an adjustable Mattes one now.

No the saddle fitter didn't take the riser into account. The horse was measured for the gullet plate using a flexicurve, that gullet fitted and then the riser pad placed underneath. She told me you didn't need to but it just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[antigone]

Mines croup high, so he has a flat, short panelled saddle. It sits in front of the bit that starts to slope up, if that makes sense? That way there isnt any need to pad it. I'd be concerned it would cause issues. Its not something my saddler has ever suggested.

thank you. It is a short saddle but apparently still needs lifting at the front to bring it into balance. Don't know what to do now!

 

[Leo Walker]

Can you get a second opinion? For a big lump mine gets very upset if the saddle is even slightly of and downs tools the way yours has done if hes not 100% happy. I'm lucky to have a good fitter though so I trust her advice. I also have an amazing physio who has done a basic saddle fitting course herself and can relate anything she finds to issues with the saddle if thats what it is. Its taken me a long time to get people I can trust like that, and its so hard if you dont have total confidence in the people you pay for advice so you have my sympathies!

 

[Theocat]

Is the fitter expecting your horse to change shape? Is it likely to build muscle, or level out (if it's still young)? I'd be concerned about a fitter who recommends a riser as a permanent solution - I think I'd be looking for a second opinion.

 

[be positive]

No the saddle fitter didn't take the riser into account. The horse was measured for the gullet plate using a flexicurve, that gullet fitted and then the riser pad placed underneath. She told me you didn't need to but it just doesn't make sense to me.

If you are using a sheepskin half pad, with a riser or not, the saddle should be fitted to take that into account, it could be making a huge amount of difference along the length of the saddle was the rest of the fit looked at or just the gullet? I wouldn't be surprised if the half pad is causing the saddle to bridge, logic has it if you lift the front to make the saddle level there may well be a part that no longer has proper contact with the back or if it does it is only the pad that is touching fully.

If the saddle is not level without a riser and there is no reason to expect the horse to change shape then I wonder whether the saddle actually fits or whether it would be better with just a front riser, something much less thick than sheepskin.

 

[antigone]

FrankieCob thank you. Its a bloomin nightmare!

Theocat yes the mare will be changing shape (I hope) she is not very strong and needs to build muscle. she will remain croup high as she is 14. She is just being worked in walk at the mo.

bepostive - thank you. Yes I see what you mean. The fit along her back appears good, the tree is flexible so the saddle is not bridging. I am thinking I will ask another HM fitter (but don't want to upset anyone) and try a gel riser. It looks as if these will not narrow the gullet in the same way. I hope I am right in thinking that. Please don't anyone mention WOW........

 

[Orchardbeck]

I use an Hm Flexee on my mare and have to shim the front with any saddle I use on this one as she has lost muscle with being older. I use the HM memory foam front riser - the one like the Backsaver pad, you can get them on her website.

I have tried most front risers on the market and my mare behaved similarly to how you describe. She seems not to like the closed foam/gel type ones but is fine with the open cell foam one - it fills in and lifts enough where needed and doesn't bash her shoulders. A lot of people dismiss the open cell foam type, and I can understand the scientific explanation, but it's totally worth a try as in practice it worked for us, and lifts the front enough.

 

[antigone]

Thank you for that, I will have another look at that one. I had seen it on heather's site but somehow missed the fact that it was a riser. Out of interest have you tried the Lemieux gel risers and if so what did you think?

 

[Orchardbeck]

I have as it happens, (the Acavallo ones sold on their website?). I have one that I bought to use with a treed saddle just before I bought the Flexee. If i'm honest it didn't get a lot of use because Hm doesn't advise their use with a Flexee (something about preventing the leather tree moulding to the horse properly). My saddle is one of the pre gullet ones so I could see how that would be a problem.

I have just bought a leather show saddle though so I intend to use it with that when it arrives, I'll be able to advise better then! They are similar to the closed cell foam ones (prolite, aerborn etc) but don't have as much of an hard edge, it kind of sits over her shoulder rather than bashing it, if that makes any sense!

 

[Orchardbeck]

I meant similar in function, they are totally different to look at!

 

[antigone]

Thank you that is very helpful. I don't understand why a gel riser would prevent the flexee tree moulding to the horse any more than another type of riser would. I must just be thick. Also I cannot really understand the difference between a riser and a pad you would use to pad out a too wide saddle (not that I advocate this). All risers seem to go up the gullet and narrow it. Tried the saddle without the riser today and little mare strode out like a good un but the pommel was below the level of the cantle and I was told they should be level with eachother. felt a little down to me too but not much. Not sure where I go from here but thank you anyway.

 

[Abi Williams]

Thank you that is very helpful. I don't understand why a gel riser would prevent the flexee tree moulding to the horse any more than another type of riser would. I must just be thick. Also I cannot really understand the difference between a riser and a pad you would use to pad out a too wide saddle (not that I advocate this). All risers seem to go up the gullet and narrow it. Tried the saddle without the riser today and little mare strode out like a good un but the pommel was below the level of the cantle and I was told they should be level with eachother. felt a little down to me too but not much. Not sure where I go from here but thank you anyway.

Hi, I have exactly the same problem with my gelding and have the same saddle as you. Did you ever resolve this?

 

[Nudibranch]

Have you tried the Nuumed shim pad at all? HM used to recommend these with the older, non gulleted Flexee and I still use mine. Presumably if you shim in front you should be able to balance the saddle better although whether that is an acceptable permanent solution I don't know...

 

[Abi Williams]

Have you tried the Nuumed shim pad at all? HM used to recommend these with the older, non gulleted Flexee and I still use mine. Presumably if you shim in front you should be able to balance the saddle better although whether that is an acceptable permanent solution I don't know...

Hi, yes I have. I bought a couple when they were recommended by the hm fitter. My gelding is croup high and I have been having exactly the same problems as the lady mentioned above. Today I tried for the first time the hm wither pad and it seemed to do the job by lifting the front. This has not created too much pressure to the back of the cantle and due to the leather flexible tree should not bridge. I have however contacted my fitter to come and check it out. I think due to the permanent high croup, this will have to be a permanent solution as long as it doesn’t create pressure elsewhere. Thank you for taking the time to respond

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

following this with interest as new mare is bum-high!! I don't ride with a HM saddle tho......

 

[antigone]

Hi, I have exactly the same problem with my gelding and have the same saddle as you. Did you ever resolve this?

Hi, sorry for the late reply - I have not been on for a while and had problems logging in! No I didn't ever resolve it. I think the saddle just wasn't right for my mare. I decided the shape of the panels at the back isn't great for a croup high horse either. I also had doubts about the competence of the fitter as she had only done a few days training and didn't really have the experience to fit a difficult horse like mine. The saddle slipped all over the place, too. I got fed up with messing about with the pads and shims. I ended up with a Strada on an L tree - just perfect for most of the year but if she gets a bit too round in the summer I have a Ghost Quevis. Sorry not to be of more help. If I were doing it again I would look at AH saddles, too. I hope you get it sorted.

 

[sbloom]

The panels on many saddles are very flat from front to back, with big rear gussets, the Flexee, despite being leather treed so less rigid, fits this description. I suspect that lifting the front dug the panel edges in at the back. The Flexee has a foam panel so can't be adjusted, and in some instances I'm sure that fitting with at least a thicker pad or even a front riser may work, but on croup high shapes I don't expect it would always work well because of the curve of the rear thoracis (under the saddle) and forward lumbar spine on most croup high horses.

Leo's approach is one I'd favour, as short a seat size and flat a tree as possible, Then either a plain panel with no gusset or a very low/short rear gusset. I see high withered saddles fitted in these instances because they're easier to get to sit higher in front but IMO it's the wrong way to go and usually leads to instability and the rails causing pressure issues.

In terms of adding a pad, a uniform thickness pad cannot make a saddle narrower. Even flocking, added low down as if bringing the points in better contact against the horse, isn't actually narrowing a saddle. The issues that a thick pad can cause - pinching either side of a high wither and spinal processes, tipping a saddle back and the two issues that can result - bridging so four point pressure, and running fowards so direct shoulder pressure.

If you need a saddle balanced then you need a thick enough pad, only one thickness will do the job, you can't go for something thinner thinking it won't pinch (though hopefully you've seen that's not the case) as it won't rebalance the saddle successfully. What I do advise is that the more you need to lift the front of the saddle the further back under the middle of the saddle the shims should go, If you simply use a thick block of foam you will cause a mild bridging under the saddle with wuite a pressure/pivot point. As mentioned earlier the shims in the Mattes correction pads can be trimmed into a customised wedge as required.

 

[Abi Williams]

Hi, sorry for the late reply - I have not been on for a while and had problems logging in! No I didn't ever resolve it. I think the saddle just wasn't right for my mare. I decided the shape of the panels at the back isn't great for a croup high horse either. I also had doubts about the competence of the fitter as she had only done a few days training and didn't really have the experience to fit a difficult horse like mine. The saddle slipped all over the place, too. I got fed up with messing about with the pads and shims. I ended up with a Strada on an L tree - just perfect for most of the year but if she gets a bit too round in the summer I have a Ghost Quevis. Sorry not to be of more help. If I were doing it again I would look at AH saddles, too. I hope you get it sorted.

Hi, thanks for getting back to me, I actually think I might have sorted it today with a hm wither pad that I bought from eBay. I warmed it up before use and it lifted the front without causing any pressure or bridging further down. I have a very experienced hm fitter coming out to check next week and she’s really good. I looked at the saddles you suggested and they they look fab. Fingers crossed I think I’m sorted now!

 

[Abi Williams]

following this with interest as new mare is bum-high!! I don't ride with a HM saddle tho......

I think I’ve found a solution with the hm wither pad that I purchased second hand from eBay. I warmed it by putting it inside my jacket whilst mucking out and grooming then once on it moulded very quickly into shape lifting the front of the saddle without bridging or causing pressure elsewhere. Fingers crossed tightly!