Sarah Moulds

[Barton Bounty]

As this debate about individual turnout rages on and on (and I'm allowed to hijack the post as I created it) please just answer me this. As someone that kept my horses in individual turnout, Bailey due to getting kicked and Lari due to circumstances. If there is no choice but individual turnout which is the case in every yard round our way what is a person to do? Should we just not bother having a horse? We don't all have our own land so some of us have no choice in the matter.

My paddock is about 120m x 30m which is nearly always strip grazed due to the wonderful grass we have on our yard. So if its made into a third you could call that 'postage stamped' but I don't consider any of my horses have ever suffered in isolation when they are free to touch over the fence and see each other. Better postage stamped than big which would cause colic.

I do agree that postage stamped paddocks are far from ideal but as so many yards seem to encourage this these days what is the average owner on livery to do? Land is short especially in built up areas and you have to take what you can get. It's not a dig at you, but I am just curious. If you have your own land, its easier for people to critique others.

Individual turnout again?? ..

Wrong thread me thinks….

 

[Barton Bounty]

Well there I have it, my horses are abused. On individual turnout because the youngster plays too hard for the old horse, I did try but it didn't work.

Mine too … because none of them can play nice with each other

Much rather that than listen to random opinions of people who may have had horses when they were 10 in 1945

 

[Birker2020]

The answer is not to keep them individually but, if they can't be kept together, to keep each one with a different companion.

But she might not have that set up???? Our paddocks are easily big enough for one but wouldn't suit two horses out together 14 hrs a day.

People have different set ups.

 

[Tiddlypom]

There are so many genuine exceptions as to why certain horses need or prefer to be turned out individually, as opposed to being turned out in a group, that it would be impossible to formulate robust legislation to cover that.

The equine bully who kicks, hassles and injures other horses, sometimes fatally, for instance. Bung him out with the others anyway, it's just horses being horses?

Some horses just prefer to be turned out alone - would you force them into a herd situation that they hate, just because you insist that they should be turned out in company?

The injured or rehabbing horse.

The list goes on.

ETA And if we are going back to a single short episode in which a pony was punched - at the time and based in the pony's reactions, and subsequently based what the puncher has since said during and after the trial, I very much doubt that was a one off. But it was the time caught on film.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I have read all of these comments and am somewhat speechless. I too am a horse abuser having kept mine separately too. I don't agree with abuse but the definition of abuse is open to interpretation. It's how far you take it.....one of mine much prefered his own company....what's abuse making him be with others or letting him live the life he preferred? Or do you go to the extreme and say we shouldn't keep horses at all..or any other living creature? There has to be some common sense applied surely? We all do the best by our animals to our knowledge and capabilities, but we all are all individuals. Are those that harrow and not poo pick abusers, those that don't get their saddle checked, or those that don't get the vet out at every step of lameness? In that case just convict me now on every count! Everything is subjective and people need to apply common sense.

 

[YorksG]

It appears though that certainly some horses who "could not be turned out with others" can when the circumstances change and they settle well in a herd. That suggests to me that the owners of horses who are kept on their own are willing to compromise the horses well being for non welfare reasons.

 

[Birker2020]

I have read all of these comments and am somewhat speechless. I too am a horse abuser having kept mine separately too. I don't agree with abuse but the definition of abuse is open to interpretation. It's how far you take it.....one of mine much prefered his own company....what's abuse making him be with others or letting him live the life he preferred? Or do you go to the extreme and say we shouldn't keep horses at all..or any other living creature? There has to be some common sense applied surely? We all do the best by our animals to our knowledge and capabilities, but we all are all individuals. Are those that harrow and not poo pick abusers, those that don't get their saddle checked, or those that don't get the vet out at every step of lameness? In that case just convict me now on every count! Everything is subjective and people need to apply common sense.

I think some people are just trying to get a rise sadly. We can't even blame it on the school holidays.

 

[Ditchjumper2]

I think some people are just trying to get a rise sadly. We can't even blame it on the school holidays.

I agree

 

[Burnttoast]

There are so many genuine exceptions as to why certain horses need or prefer to be turned out individually, as opposed to being turned out in a group, that it would be impossible to formulate robust legislation to cover that.

The equine bully who kicks, hassles and injures other horses, sometimes fatally, for instance. Bung him out with the others anyway, it's just horses being horses?

Some horses just prefer to be turned out alone - would you force them into a herd situation that they hate, just because you insist that they should be turned out in company?

The injured or rehabbing horse.

The list goes on.

ETA And if we are going back to a single short episode in which a pony was punched - at the time and based in the pony's reactions, and subsequently based what the puncher has since said during and after the trial, I very much doubt that was a one off. But it was the time caught on film.

We're never going to have legislation here about individual turnout so it's moot, but for my own pleasure I wouldn't keep horses such as those in your first two examples because I like seeing them interact (etc etc). Fortunately there are plenty of people who will, so these relatively rare instances of horses that are genuinely that badly socialised (usually by people) will be able to find homes, all things being equal. The mere existence of such horses doesn't really invalidate the basic point that in the massive majority of cases horses are social animals who want the company of their own kind, but often in practice don't have it.

 

[Birker2020]

It appears though that certainly some horses who "could not be turned out with others" can when the circumstances change and they settle well in a herd. That suggests to me that the owners of horses who are kept on their own are willing to compromise the horses well being for non welfare reasons.

Simple explanation, it's because the horse in question was at yard A with no herd turnout. And he has now retired into place B that is just herd turnout. And he certainly hadn't settled well into the herd, I nearly pulled him out and had him back 'home' as he was jumping out of high fenced sheep netting to escape being bullied and trying to hide behind his friend or was visibly shaking and cantering off everytime the horse looked in his direction. It's been a complete nightmare for both of us.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

There are so many genuine exceptions as to why certain horses need or prefer to be turned out individually, as opposed to being turned out in a group, that it would be impossible to formulate robust legislation to cover that.

The equine bully who kicks, hassles and injures other horses, sometimes fatally, for instance. Bung him out with the others anyway, it's just horses being horses?

Some horses just prefer to be turned out alone - would you force them into a herd situation that they hate, just because you insist that they should be turned out in company?

The injured or rehabbing horse.

The list goes on.

ETA And if we are going back to a single short episode in which a pony was punched - at the time and based in the pony's reactions, and subsequently based what the puncher has since said during and after the trial, I very much doubt that was a one off. But it was the time caught on film.

Have you ever seen a zoo-kept zebra in an individual pen (except perhaps when recovering from illness/injury)?

 

[ycbm]

Have you ever seen a zoo-kept zebra in an individual pen (except perhaps when recovering from illness/injury)?

No but I've never seen one ridden, brushed, kissed, fed in long lasting trickle nets or show any inclination to interact with people who aren't bringing food either.

I don't find wild and domesticated animal comparisons very helpful.
.

 

[meleeka]

One reason for that would be that the adult could cause much greater harm to the child tha another similar sized child could do

Sorry I don’t understand your point?

I think you’re saying that people would be horrified by an adult hitting a child, rather than a child hitting a child, because the adult could do more damage? I disagree. I think people would be horrified because it was an adult and they should know better.

 

[shanti]

I think what she did was abhorrent. I can think of many times I have lost my temper at an animal however I have never struck one, it's never even crossed my mind, and I fail to see, in my idealistic way, how anyone can justify that behavior. If that had been a child or even another adult she did the exact same thing to, there would be absolutely no question over her guilt and wrongdoing, she would have been charged with assault immediately, nobody would be making any heat of the moment excuses for her.

The RSPCA should never have taken it to court, they were never going to win unfortunately and it was a huge waste of time and money. We kill pigs in gas chambers for bacon, have battery hen farms and ,in the eyes of the law, pets are viewed as a possession much like a car.

Animals have very few legal rights, as proven apparent in this case.

 

[Barton Bounty]

I think some people are just trying to get a rise sadly. We can't even blame it on the school holidays.

I think beating your horse is much worse than keeping it in a separate field.

 

[Birker2020]

I think beating your horse is much worse than keeping it in a separate field.

Yep totally agree, I heard about that although I have never mentioned it. I think that person seems to have forgotten

 

[Birker2020]

It appears though that certainly some horses who "could not be turned out with others" can when the circumstances change and they settle well in a herd. That suggests to me that the owners of horses who are kept on their own are willing to compromise the horses well being for non welfare reasons.

No Lari was at yard A on individual turnout with the other 35 plus horses who were also happily living alongside each other in individual turnout. Then when I retired him he went into a herd at Yard B. No big mystery.

And he certainly didn't settle well initially, he was being bullied which I wrote about on here, as did I about the extraordinary lengths the y.o went to, helping him to settle. And the fact we were about to pull him out of the herd after he jumped sheep wire three times to escape his tormentor which led to a number of sleepless nights and worry.

 

[Birker2020]

Then you don't agree with the five freedoms? Who decides the hierarchy of needs? I happen to believe that the need to carry out behaviours which are central to a herd animals well being are absolutely eessential. I also believe that denying an animal that interaction for months and, in some cases, years, is a form of abuse.

There are lots of worse forms of abuse. I personally can't feel anything but dismay for the poor terrified fox running for it's very life in complete and utter terror of losing its life, in the end so exhausted it loses the fight. A long drawn out form of maltreatment/torture. Do I dislike people who hunt? No, I recognise everyone has their choice.

Or what about the animal slaughtered without being pre stunned struggling in terror and agony and drowning in it's own blood whilst hung upside down. To me that's a worse form of abuse. But that's my opinion. And quite accepted by many, many people the world over.

Or the abuse that an innocent person might suffer by unfairly being called a bigot or a racist without fair justification which is unwarranted and based on no factual interpretation at all. And the resulting impact that has in that person, because some people will believe anything sadly.

So as you see, abuse comes in many differing forms.

 

[Sandstone1]

This is getting silly. What has individual turnout got to do with punching and kicking a pony in temper?
There are lots of ways of abusing animals but we are talking of a individual person caught on camera abusing a animal.
If you want to get in to what about this, what about that, is hunting not abuse for the horse? Forced to wear tack, carry a rider, gallop across country and jump fences get jabbed in the mouth and hit if the rider feels its not going fast enough or jumping well enough. All in the name of fun for the rider. If you want to go down that road the pony that was punched in the face and kicked in the guts was being abused by being at the hunt in the first place. You could go on and on but bringing individual turnout in to the discussion its just trying to divert the conversation away from the main topic.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Have you ever seen a zoo-kept zebra in an individual pen (except perhaps when recovering from illness/injury)?

We are not talking about wild animals kept in zoos .

There are a number of very experienced horse keepers on here who rightly treat all their animals as individuals. While most horses do better kept in groups, some do not, for various reasons. So legislation will fail.

Pity the horse who belongs to someone who foists their own agenda on it. 'You will be out with company and like it'. Especially if horses get injured as a result.

Btw, don't shoot the messenger. I am lucky enough to be able to manage my horses at home as I wish, and that includes them living out in company. When I had the late maxicob pts unexpectedly, leaving senior mare on her own, the RSPCA fast tracked a foster filly to me to give her company, doing the home check later (they already knew me).

 

[Barton Bounty]

Another thread waylaid by the usual suspects

 

[equinerebel]

I think what she did was abhorrent. I can think of many times I have lost my temper at an animal however I have never struck one, it's never even crossed my mind, and I fail to see, in my idealistic way, how anyone can justify that behavior. If that had been a child or even another adult she did the exact same thing to, there would be absolutely no question over her guilt and wrongdoing, she would have been charged with assault immediately, nobody would be making any heat of the moment excuses for her.

The RSPCA should never have taken it to court, they were never going to win unfortunately and it was a huge waste of time and money. We kill pigs in gas chambers for bacon, have battery hen farms and ,in the eyes of the law, pets are viewed as a possession much like a car.

Animals have very few legal rights, as proven apparent in this case.

There’s a difference in law between “livestock” and “pets”. Leisure horses fall somewhere in between but usually end up on the pet side of the law as a “possession”.

The RSPCA should have taken her to court because it was a blatant act of animal cruelty and that is literally their job. They have set funds earmarked specifically for legal cases.

 

[Clodagh]

Another thread waylaid by the usual suspects

Actually Birker admitting hihacking the thread and making it specific.
It’s all a bit dull though, can we go back to Sarah Moulds?

 

[Barton Bounty]

Actually Birker admitting hihacking the thread and making it specific.
It’s all a bit dull though, can we go back to Sarah Moulds?

Great idea

 

[palo1]

Individual turnout, denying a highly social and dependent herd animal free association with it's own species, so that it can interact naturally for a variety of reasons, is a form of abuse and we do that for our convenience in the vast majority of cases. Horses that cannot interact with other horses, for whatever reason are going to struggle psychologically and physically. I think that is universally acknowledged. Punching and kicking a horse is also abusisve and shows appallingly poor horsemanship. I am not sure that there is a reliable equation to identify what is 'worse' and in any case neither seem acceptable really to me. There are many ways that we abuse animals. It IS culturally accepted sadly - even here on HHO.

 

[DabDab]

Actually Birker admitting hihacking the thread and making it specific.
It’s all a bit dull though, can we go back to Sarah Moulds?

<whispers> anyone could have posted about Sarah Moulds at any time during this tedious back and forth about individual turnout. Perhaps she is even less interesting...

 

[Birker2020]

Actually Birker admitting hihacking the thread and making it specific.
It’s all a bit dull though, can we go back to Sarah Moulds?

Actually Clodagh that isn't correct. If you would care to look back around 230 ish from memory, the comments about individual turnout was started by the usual antagonists and well before my post admitting hijacking the post.

 

[bonny]

<whispers> anyone could have posted about Sarah Moulds at any time during this tedious back and forth about individual turnout. Perhaps she is even less interesting...

I’m not sure there is anything left to say about Sarah Moulds so like most threads it will wander off course for a while and then die a natural death .

 

[Rowreach]

Actually Clodagh that isn't correct. If you would care to look back around 230 ish from memory, the comments about individual turnout was started by the usual antagonists and well before my post admitting hijacking the post.

It was #229 where, instead of either engaging in discussing a comment or alternatively ignoring it, you decided to be a bit rude

I was hoping for an enlightened discussion on what constitutes "unnecessary suffering", since the definition didn't hold up in court on this occasion. I walked away when I saw it had turned into a pointless row, between the usual protagonists on both sides.

 

[AmyMay]

It was #229 where, instead of either engaging in discussing a comment or alternatively ignoring it, you decided to be a bit rude

I was hoping for an enlightened discussion on what constitutes "unnecessary suffering", since the definition didn't hold up in court on this occasion. I walked away when I saw it had turned into a pointless row, between the usual protagonists on both sides.

I think she was quite reasonably responding to post #227…..

Anyway shall we steer clear of Birker bashing???