Sarah Moulds

[Rowreach]

The whataboutery is tedious, and happens every time someone is filmed clearly abusing a horse.

There are wider issues around horse welfare that the equestrian community needs to reckon with. Issues around working life, stabling, socialising etc are nuanced. Punching a horse in the face is no If we can’t roundly condemn behaviour like this when it’s absolutely black and white, no wonder we haven’t made any progress on more complicated horse welfare issues. There is no ‘other side’ in this specific case; she punched a horse in the face.

Ah, where did I say she didn't punch him in the face?

I really dislike being accused of "whataboutery" and being tedious when I am simply engaging in and widening the debate in what I think is a perfectly relevant way.

 

[meleeka]

I have never punched or kicked a horse and can't imagine any situation when I would do so. I think SM was very foolish on all sorts of levels BUT, horses do much worse to each other frequently, without long term harm. I doubt that SM did much harm at all on that one occasion.
And it would appear that there is no evidence of her behaviour being a regular occurance. I really doubt that RSPCA would have got involved at all if no-one had mentioned 'hunting'.

I mentioned upthread of a similar case near me (the video of the pony being abused when trying to load was taken secretly by a livery). There was no hunting connection and the abuser was found guilty. I suspect the difference was that the abuser couldn’t afford a top lawyer.

Children hit each other all the time too, but most people would be aghast if the same argument was used about an adult punching a child.

 

[equinerebel]

I think the RSPCA thought it was low hanging fruit, however the prosecution failed, having cost a lot of money which could have been used for greater protection for animals. Such as those animals condemned to solitary confinement in unenriched small paddocks.

It is the RSPCA's job to use earmarked funding to take cases of animal cruelty to court. Had they ignored clear footage of an animal being punched, I'm pretty sure some of their supporters would have had questions. That is what they did, the prosecution failed (IMO) for the reasons I have already explained.

Again, it is very clear to just about anyone that punching a horse is violent. Most lawyers would have a tremendously hard time, however, prosecuting the hundreds of horse owners keeping their animals in barren paddocks.

 

[NinjaPony]

Ah, where did I say she didn't punch him in the face?

I really dislike being accused of "whataboutery" and being tedious when I am simply engaging in and widening the debate in what I think is a perfectly relevant way.

That wasn’t necessarily aimed at you, I just find it unhelpful when these types of threads always end up in a place where comments about a specific example of abuse are disregarded as being not as bad as wider equestrian welfare debates. There’s always a worse example of abuse, and there is a whole industry behind it, but it starts to feel like we are expected to not be outraged by an incident like this because there is something worse going on on a macro scale. I just don’t buy that, most of us are interested in improving equine welfare on a larger scale than isolated incidents, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be appalled by a horse being punched in the face. We can all hold those thoughts together at the same time, and I think the fewer owners who punch their horses, the better.

The legislation raises a very interesting issue, I hadn’t realised horse transporters are held to different standards. I definitely think there should at least be a review to put some better protections in place for horses, certainly in a professional setting at the very least.

 

[YorksG]

It is the RSPCA's job to use earmarked funding to take cases of animal cruelty to court. Had they ignored clear footage of an animal being punched, I'm pretty sure some of their supporters would have had questions. That is what they did, the prosecution failed (IMO) for the reasons I have already explained.

Again, it is very clear to just about anyone that punching a horse is violent. Most lawyers would have a tremendously hard time, however, prosecuting the hundreds of horse owners keeping their animals in barren paddocks.

So in your view, because it would be difficult to prosecute people who routinely abuse their horses, the RSPCA should not try?

 

[equinerebel]

So in your view, because it would be difficult to prosecute people who routinely abuse their horses, the RSPCA should not try?

I'm literally saying the opposite. I'm defending the RSPCA (which pains me to say) for taking this case to court. Compared to your example, it should have been easy to get a prosecution for clear, physical abuse. That it wasn't is a failure of legislation and law, not the absence of any wrong doing on the part of SM.

 

[Tiddlypom]

If by 'low hanging fruit' means the likelihood of getting a successful conviction, then that is a sensible decision and is what the CPS bases its decisions on whether to prosecute a case or not.

Clearly the fruit didn't hang low enough in the SM case, as the verdict was not guilty .

I do tend to find the whataboutery tedious, like when we get told that racehorses live the life of riley and we should worry about the neglected coloured cobs instead. Like most people, I can be concerned about both. And I dislike intensely the mini all electric individual turnout paddocks that are proliferating, and have posted on other threads stating that.

 

[Rowreach]

Not being "allowed" by some members to debate around a topic makes this forum a very dull place these days. The widening of a discussion can be very educational for people who maybe don't realise that animals may suffer from things that are seen as common practice and not just the more obvious physical violent action of kicking a horse in the chest and punching it in the head.

 

[DabDab]

Not being "allowed" by some members to debate around a topic makes this forum a very dull place these days. The widening of a discussion can be very educational for people who maybe don't realise that animals may suffer from things that are seen as common practice and not just the more obvious physical violent action of kicking a horse in the chest and punching it in the head.

I agree. I don't know why a general discussion around horse welfare, commonplace ways of 'training' horses and examples of bad horsemanship, and the legislative view on those things can't come out of a case like this. Surely discussions like this are the only real good that can come out of this case now?

Otherwise the discussion is just 'woman does a sh1t thing to horse.' The end.

 

[Tiddlypom]

A general discussion of horse welfare is never a bad thing, and there have been many on HHO, but this thread is about one specific trial of one person who though clearly filmed punching a horse was found not guilty.

The chances of someone being found guilty of abusing or neglecting their horse if it is kept all the time in a mini all electric individual turnout paddock, but is adequately fed and watered, is unlikely. It may be ethically wrong, but seeing as tethering is still legal I cannot see it getting a conviction.

You could well argue that in that case that the laws about animal welfare need to be generally tightened up, and that is a very valid view.

 

[YorksG]

A general discussion of horse welfare is never a bad thing, and there have been many on HHO, but this thread is about one specific trial of one person who though clearly filmed punching a horse was found not guilty.

The chances of someone being found guilty of abusing or neglecting their horse if it is kept all the time in a mini all electric individual turnout paddock, but is adequately fed and watered, is unlikely. It may be ethically wrong, but seeing as tethering is still legal I cannot see it getting a conviction.

You could well argue that in that case that the laws about animal welfare need to be generally tightened up, and that is a very valid view.

However, surely experienced horse people should be aware that the harm caused to the horse by keeping it in isolation and unable to express normal Equine behaviour would be greater than an apparently isolated incident of being hit?

 

[Pebble101]

However, surely experienced horse people should be aware that the harm caused to the horse by keeping it in isolation and unable to express normal Equine behaviour would be greater than an apparently isolated incident of being hit?

Can you define isolation and unable to express normal equine behaviour please. Do you include individual turnout?

 

[YorksG]

Can you define isolation and unable to express normal equine behaviour please. Do you include individual turnout?

I do indeed, especially where the animal is confined to a small enclosure, often on mono species grass. Normal Equine behaviour includes interacting, closely, with others of the same species, being able to graze and browse on a variety of vegetation.

 

[Birker2020]

However, surely experienced horse people should be aware that the harm caused to the horse by keeping it in isolation and unable to express normal Equine behaviour would be greater than an apparently isolated incident of being hit?

As this debate about individual turnout rages on and on (and I'm allowed to hijack the post as I created it) please just answer me this. As someone that kept my horses in individual turnout, Bailey due to getting kicked and Lari due to circumstances. If there is no choice but individual turnout which is the case in every yard round our way what is a person to do? Should we just not bother having a horse? We don't all have our own land so some of us have no choice in the matter.

My paddock is about 120m x 30m which is nearly always strip grazed due to the wonderful grass we have on our yard. So if its made into a third you could call that 'postage stamped' but I don't consider any of my horses have ever suffered in isolation when they are free to touch over the fence and see each other. Better postage stamped than big which would cause colic.

I do agree that postage stamped paddocks are far from ideal but as so many yards seem to encourage this these days what is the average owner on livery to do? Land is short especially in built up areas and you have to take what you can get. It's not a dig at you, but I am just curious. If you have your own land, its easier for people to critique others.

 

[bonny]

As this debate about individual turnout rages on and on (and I'm allowed to hijack the post as I created it) please just answer me this. As someone that kept my horses in individual turnout, Bailey due to getting kicked and Lari due to circumstances. If there is no choice but individual turnout which is the case in every yard round our way what is a person to do? Should we just not bother having a horse? We don't all have our own land so some of us have no choice in the matter.

My paddock is about 120m x 30m which is nearly always strip grazed due to the wonderful grass we have on our yard. So if its made into a third you could call that 'postage stamped' but I don't consider any of my horses have ever suffered in isolation when they are free to touch over the fence and see each other.

I do agree that postage stamped paddocks are far from ideal but as so many yards seem to encourage this these days what is the average owner on livery to do? Land is short especially in built up areas and you have to take what you can get.

Individual turnout in electric fenced pens has come about because its what the customer wants, no one was forced down that road and now because it’s increasingly seen as the norm thats all that’s offered in some areas. I wouldn’t keep a horse like that.

 

[Birker2020]

Individual turnout in electric fenced pens has come about because its what the customer wants, no one was forced down that road and now because it’s increasingly seen as the norm thats all that’s offered in some areas. I wouldn’t keep a horse like that.

So if you lived by us you'd go without a horse then. Ok.

 

[Clodagh]

So if you lived by us you'd go without a horse then. Ok.

It’s hard and there’s a lot of unnatural things we do to horses, I have no idea if I would keep a horse if it’s life was either shut in a stable or shut in a bit bigger than a stable field. It’s a poxy life for them either way.

 

[ycbm]

I do indeed, especially where the animal is confined to a small enclosure, often on mono species grass. Normal Equine behaviour includes interacting, closely, with others of the same species, being able to graze and browse on a variety of vegetation.

It also includes kicking and biting each other. And some horses hate company. And some need isolating for medical reasons. And some don't care whether they have company or not. And and and....

It will be a very clever lawyer who manages to word an effective law that will ban individual turnout on the grounds of it harming the horse.

 

[YorksG]

As this debate about individual turnout rages on and on (and I'm allowed to hijack the post as I created it) please just answer me this. As someone that kept my horses in individual turnout, Bailey due to getting kicked and Lari due to circumstances. If there is no choice but individual turnout which is the case in every yard round our way what is a person to do? Should we just not bother having a horse? We don't all have our own land so some of us have no choice in the matter.

My paddock is about 120m x 30m which is nearly always strip grazed due to the wonderful grass we have on our yard. So if its made into a third you could call that 'postage stamped' but I don't consider any of my horses have ever suffered in isolation when they are free to touch over the fence and see each other. Better postage stamped than big which would cause colic.

I do agree that postage stamped paddocks are far from ideal but as so many yards seem to encourage this these days what is the average owner on livery to do? Land is short especially in built up areas and you have to take what you can get. It's not a dig at you, but I am just curious. If you have your own land, its easier for people to critique others.

I feel that anyone who chooses to keep a herd animal in an enclosure, on its own, chooses to compromise the animals welfare. If a zoo, or a circus were to keep a herd animal alone people would be up in arms, quite rightly. If people can't meet the five "freedoms " should they be keeping the animal?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I mentioned upthread of a similar case near me (the video of the pony being abused when trying to load was taken secretly by a livery). There was no hunting connection and the abuser was found guilty. I suspect the difference was that the abuser couldn’t afford a top lawyer.

Children hit each other all the time too, but most people would be aghast if the same argument was used about an adult punching a child.

One reason for that would be that the adult could cause much greater harm to the child tha another similar sized child could do

 

[Birker2020]

I feel that anyone who chooses to keep a herd animal in an enclosure, on its own, chooses to compromise the animals welfare. If a zoo, or a circus were to keep a herd animal alone people would be up in arms, quite rightly. If people can't meet the five "freedoms " should they be keeping the animal?

Well I think you'll find that there are hundreds or thousands of people like myself that keep horses in individual turnout and their horses don't suffer. It's not like they can't see or interact with others over the fence. Questioning whether people that aren't able turn out in a herd situation should keep horses or not is quite frankly ludicrous.

I feel that anyone who chooses to keep a herd animal in an enclosure, on its own, chooses to compromise the animals welfare. If a zoo, or a circus were to keep a herd animal alone people would be up in arms, quite rightly. If people can't meet the five "freedoms " should they be keeping the animal?

 

[Pearlsasinger]

So if you lived by us you'd go without a horse then. Ok.

Have you never heard the saying, "he who.pays the piper calls the tune"? Or 'the customer is always right'?
Saying that I have to keep my horse in individual turnout because thats all that is available is like me saying, "I want to keep a snake but I've only got a fishtank to keep one in, so it will have to cope with that. It will be fine because I will love it and anyway, I want one!"

We do not have a god-given right to own any animal without being able to provide adequately for its needs

 

[stangs]

Well I think you'll find that there are hundreds or thousands of people like myself that keep horses in individual turnout and their horses don't suffer. It's not like they can't see or interact with others over the fence. Questioning whether people that aren't able turn out in a herd situation should keep horses or not is quite frankly ludicrous.

Whatever helps you sleep at night…

 

[Birker2020]

Have you never heard the saying, "he who.pays the piper calls the tune"? Or 'the customer is always right'?
Saying that I have to keep my horse in individual turnout because thats all that is available is like me saying, "I want to keep a snake but I've only got a fishtank to keep one in, so it will have to cope with that. It will be fine because I will love it and anyway, I want one!"

You're talking absolute tripe.

 

[Birker2020]

Whatever helps you sleep at night…

That's a very silly remark which doesn't actually make any sense.

 

[Pebble101]

Well there I have it, my horses are abused. On individual turnout because the youngster plays too hard for the old horse, I did try but it didn't work.

 

[Burnttoast]

As this debate about individual turnout rages on and on (and I'm allowed to hijack the post as I created it) please just answer me this. As someone that kept my horses in individual turnout, Bailey due to getting kicked and Lari due to circumstances. If there is no choice but individual turnout which is the case in every yard round our way what is a person to do? Should we just not bother having a horse? We don't all have our own land so some of us have no choice in the matter.

My paddock is about 120m x 30m which is nearly always strip grazed due to the wonderful grass we have on our yard. So if its made into a third you could call that 'postage stamped' but I don't consider any of my horses have ever suffered in isolation when they are free to touch over the fence and see each other. Better postage stamped than big which would cause colic.

I do agree that postage stamped paddocks are far from ideal but as so many yards seem to encourage this these days what is the average owner on livery to do? Land is short especially in built up areas and you have to take what you can get. It's not a dig at you, but I am just curious. If you have your own land, its easier for people to critique others.

It's not obligatory to keep a horse (and in fact it's a darn sight easier not to). I wouldn't keep a horse in the circumstances you describe (or a horse that couldn't be turned out with others). One of the great pleasures of owning, for me, is watching them be horses. That does require horses plural unfortunately, for the full effect.

 

[Birker2020]

Well there I have it, my horses are abused. On individual turnout because the youngster plays too hard for the old horse, I did try but it didn't work.

Shame on you for individual turnout!

 

[YorksG]

Well I think you'll find that there are hundreds or thousands of people like myself that keep horses in individual turnout and their horses don't suffer. It's not like they can't see or interact with others over the fence. Questioning whether people that aren't able turn out in a herd situation should keep horses or not is quite frankly ludicrous.

Then you don't agree with the five freedoms? Who decides the hierarchy of needs? I happen to believe that the need to carry out behaviours which are central to a herd animals well being are absolutely eessential. I also believe that denying an animal that interaction for months and, in some cases, years, is a form of abuse.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Well there I have it, my horses are abused. On individual turnout because the youngster plays too hard for the old horse, I did try but it didn't work.

The answer is not to keep them individually but, if they can't be kept together, to keep each one with a different companion.