Sarcoids and welfare

The Fuzzy Furry said:
LG, as a YO myself, I'd be horrified that sarcoids of those sizes that are actively bleeding are not being treated.
FWIW, I think new YO isnt at all experienced but worryingly lacking in knowledge, poor blooming horse 😪
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Exactly what I thought when I read your post LG. I wouldn't want the horse untreated on my yard. My cob developed a small sarcoid on her face, which the vet removed when it started bleeding minimally. He said "Let's get rid of that before the flies start".
It's several years ago now, she hasn't developed any more and her field companion has none either.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Just to update this, the sarcoids are bleeding and the horse has been kicking at them, and getting blood all over its white sock which is quite obvious. The flies are really bothering the horse too. I decided I had to be a bit firmer with the owner about vet intervention or long term plans, so the horse is being moved.

The new yard apparently doesn’t think that sarcoids are a problem at all and apparently they were surprised that the owner mentioned it. They didn’t think it was something the owner needed to make anyone aware of.

It sounds like a private yard with a small mixed herd of their own retired, ridden and young horses so it seems like the yard owner must be quite experienced.

That has made me wonder whether I am totally overreacting and whether I have been difficult about this. I’m feeling a bit silly really.
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Your not over reacting at all they are bad and with the flies and summer they will gey worse.

I would push for the horse to leave and then it's not your worry, as harsh as that sounds I've been in similar situations and sometimes you just can't get through to people.

You have gone beyond trying to help so sometimes you have to let them get on with it and unfortunately it is the horse that suufers but you have done all you can.
 
Pinkvboots said:
Your not over reacting at all they are bad and with the flies and summer they will gey worse.

I would push for the horse to leave and then it's not your worry, as harsh as that sounds I've been in similar situations and sometimes you just can't get through to people.

You have gone beyond trying to help so sometimes you have to let them get on with it and unfortunately it is the horse that suufers but you have done all you can.
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I would be reporting this situation to either the RSPCA or World Horse Welfare. I had a horse which developed multiple sarcoids over a relatively short period of time (six months). My very experienced equine veterinarian tried various treatments including banding. None of them worked. Horse was pts.
 
I really feel for you in this situation, your kindly offer to try and make things easier for owner and horse have taken you to a point you are questioning your behaviour in response to a horse that is not coping well with their life as it is.
I think you have gone above and beyond what I and many others would have done to help.
It does look from here that there really is only one sensible thing for the owner to do but failing that I think you are doing the only thing you can do.
I hoe the moving day goes smoothly and is sooner rather than later.
 
Ok, really good to know that I’ve not been overreacting. The impression I got from the owner is that I have been totally unreasonable about it.

The horse has food, water, shelter, and is being cared for by the owner. I don’t think it would meet any legal welfare violations in its present state but I would never want any of my own horses to even approach that line, so I personally would have called time sooner. I know that’s such a personal judgement to make.

The horse has been seen by a vet in the last three months to diagnose its lameness issues (navicular in both fronts with soft tissue damage) and its stomach ulcers, but not specifically the sarcoids. So it has been seen, it is not without any veterinary supervision.

The vet who saw the horse did recommend treating the sarcoids with standing surgery and cream thereafter, and the director of the vet practice requested to see them. The owner declined on the basis of not putting her through surgery - which I totally support - but, as far as I know, they didn’t suggest pts.

I think it’s a case of letting a horse go longer than I would with an irreversible condition, but that line is different for everyone and there are horses much lamer and much more uncomfortable out there that people feel aren’t at the pts point so I appreciate that it’s not a black and white.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Ok, really good to know that I’ve not been overreacting. The impression I got from the owner is that I have been totally unreasonable about it.

The horse has food, water, shelter, and is being cared for by the owner. I don’t think it would meet any legal welfare violations in its present state but I would never want any of my own horses to even approach that line, so I personally would have called time sooner. I know that’s such a personal judgement to make.

The horse has been seen by a vet in the last three months to diagnose its lameness issues (navicular in both fronts with soft tissue damage) and its stomach ulcers, but not specifically the sarcoids. So it has been seen, it is not without any veterinary supervision.

The vet who saw the horse did recommend treating the sarcoids with standing surgery and cream thereafter, and the director of the vet practice requested to see them. The owner declined on the basis of not putting her through surgery - which I totally support - but, as far as I know, they didn’t suggest pts.

I think it’s a case of letting a horse go longer than I would with an irreversible condition, but that line is different for everyone and there are horses much lamer and much more uncomfortable out there that people feel aren’t at the pts point so I appreciate that it’s not a black and white.
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The horse sounds like it must be thoroughly miserable. Out of interest, did she get the ulcers treated? If the sarcoids and flies are bothering her, that won’t be helping.

I’m glad it’s not your problem anymore.
 
The horse Dex shares a field with has sarcoids much much worse than this which bleed, get bedding stuck to them, attract flies and the horse won't allow you anywhere near them any more. The owner to be fair has tried everything that exists over the years to get rid and has lost the battle. It's such a hard thing to watch a horse suffer with.

I have to be honest, I probably wouldn't PTS on the basis of the two that you have photographed LG, I would with the horse at my yard. I think when it's just two and they aren't in rubbing places like the armpit then it's easier to smother in fly cream and/or have them banded so I would try that before PTS consideration, that being said with the navicular also and the ulcers and other conditions you have aluded to it makes it more of a consideration.

That being said, I don't think you have overreacted LG, at all.
 
AShetlandBitMeOnce said:
The horse Dex shares a field with has sarcoids much much worse than this which bleed, get bedding stuck to them, attract flies and the horse won't allow you anywhere near them any more. The owner to be fair has tried everything that exists over the years to get rid and has lost the battle. It's such a hard thing to watch a horse suffer with.

I have to be honest, I probably wouldn't PTS on the basis of the two that you have photographed LG, I would with the horse at my yard. I think when it's just two and they aren't in rubbing places like the armpit then it's easier to smother in fly cream and/or have them banded so I would try that before PTS consideration, that being said with the navicular also and the ulcers and other conditions you have aluded to it makes it more of a consideration.

That being said, I don't think you have overreacted LG, at all.
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Thanks, that is a useful reference point.

My advice has been to treat or pts but not to ignore. The new yard appears to have said fine to ignore, just use fly spray.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Thanks, that is a useful reference point.

My advice has been to treat or pts but not to ignore. The new yard appears to have said fine to ignore, just use fly spray.
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I would struggle looking at those everyday especially on one of my own horses it just doesn't sit right does it. 😔
 
LadyGascoyne said:
Thanks, that is a useful reference point.

My advice has been to treat or pts but not to ignore. The new yard appears to have said fine to ignore, just use fly spray.
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The poor horse can’t ignore them though. When mine had them (and they didn’t bother him in the slightest and he had no other issues), I had them removed and they came back. When one started to bleed, it was removed and from then on I found that applying summer fly cream kept the flies away so they didn’t change. Just ignoring the problem sadly doesn’t usually fix it 🙄
 
You are NOT over-reacting. 'Benign neglect' is absolutely not appropriate for growing, bleeding sarcoids. Wait and see is fine if they are inactive. These are not. Sarcoids are invasive - what you see is often just a small part of the tumour which can also extend inside. I was shocked at the size of the hole when Dolly's small sarcoid was treated with Liverpool cream. Poor horse.
 
I wouldn’t class this as a major welfare issue requiring authorities intervention. BUT that doesn’t mean I don’t think it’s an issue. For me this needs vet intervention and close management and if it were a horse under my care and the owner refused, I too would have told them to remove the horse from my yard. So I don’t think you are over reacting.
 
Was at a show years ago when I noticed one of the ridden Arabs had a large sarcoid on its side raw and bleeding. It carried on it's show and no one thought it was a problem. Appalling the judge should have sent it out of the class.
 
LadyGascoyne said:
I have a horse in my care which belongs to one of our ex-freelancers, which has two large sarcoids and two smaller ones.

The horse has a few other, more acute health issues which is why the young lady who owns it has moved it to me. She hadn’t mentioned the sarcoids, I think purely due to the long list of more critical items that we are dealing with. She’s a lovely person who is doing everything she can for the horse.

The horse is 16 and currently being treated for her other medical issues at the owner’s expense - she is not insured. My vet, who is working with the owner too, has quoted about £4.5k to remove under GA. The horse would then need treatment with aldera cream and painkillers thereafter. The decision has to be leave, and watch.

I am happy to support this decision but I do have a duty of care for this horse, on our land, and I want to put into place some kind of framework for monitoring the horse and evaluating progression of sarcoids/ decline of wellbeing.

I know a few of us are in similar positions with horses. I just wondered what everyone’s thresholds are for welfare and what factors you are considering when you are working out where you are with that?
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Hi there - my old 25 y/o mare had sarcoids in a similar place - she had them for years and some stayed dormant - others enlarged. Tbh although that one looks big and ugly it doesn't look overly irritated - Hers used to turn red and sore and were on the inside top of her back legs so rubbed..... If it isn't bothering the mare I would just leave it. I made the mistake of having the vet try to remove the biggest one on Ellie - you used to be able to pop them like a big white eyeball. She had a few removed like that over the years - a tiny cut and pop it out... but attempting to remove the big one was a mistake - it wouldn't pop out and the vet just kept cutting and she kept bleeding.. he should never have attempted it. A week later she developed cellulitis and after treating that - laminitis which she had never had. She didnt recover from the lami and foundered badly so we lost her.... I think the sarcoid removal was so traumtic it affected her whole body. I think now that this one has got so big I would leave it or discuss radiotherapy. As long as the mare is happy with her life I wouldn't pts.
 
suemc66 said:
Hi there - my old 25 y/o mare had sarcoids in a similar place - she had them for years and some stayed dormant - others enlarged. Tbh although that one looks big and ugly it doesn't look overly irritated - Hers used to turn red and sore and were on the inside top of her back legs so rubbed..... If it isn't bothering the mare I would just leave it. I made the mistake of having the vet try to remove the biggest one on Ellie - you used to be able to pop them like a big white eyeball. She had a few removed like that over the years - a tiny cut and pop it out... but attempting to remove the big one was a mistake - it wouldn't pop out and the vet just kept cutting and she kept bleeding.. he should never have attempted it. A week later she developed cellulitis and after treating that - laminitis which she had never had. She didnt recover from the lami and foundered badly so we lost her.... I think the sarcoid removal was so traumtic it affected her whole body. I think now that this one has got so big I would leave it or discuss radiotherapy. As long as the mare is happy with her life I wouldn't pts.
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Hi Sue, probably would have helped if you had read post 76, (3 above yours), the horse left LG's yard a week ago.
 
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suemc66 said:
Hi there - my old 25 y/o mare had sarcoids in a similar place - she had them for years and some stayed dormant - others enlarged. Tbh although that one looks big and ugly it doesn't look overly irritated - Hers used to turn red and sore and were on the inside top of her back legs so rubbed..... If it isn't bothering the mare I would just leave it. I made the mistake of having the vet try to remove the biggest one on Ellie - you used to be able to pop them like a big white eyeball. She had a few removed like that over the years - a tiny cut and pop it out... but attempting to remove the big one was a mistake - it wouldn't pop out and the vet just kept cutting and she kept bleeding.. he should never have attempted it. A week later she developed cellulitis and after treating that - laminitis which she had never had. She didnt recover from the lami and foundered badly so we lost her.... I think the sarcoid removal was so traumtic it affected her whole body. I think now that this one has got so big I would leave it or discuss radiotherapy. As long as the mare is happy with her life I wouldn't pts.
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Sorry to hear about your horse.

The owner has elected to move the horse. The sarcoids were bleeding quite heavily, and the horse was kicking at them so it was difficult to manage flies. The horse was becoming quite distressed but won’t stable alone and mine are out 24/7 in summer. It became an issue where they needed to be treated if the horse was going to be comfortable here.

I hope she has better luck in the new yard.
 
I have read through this thread and feel nothing but sympathy for the horse, the owner and Lady Gasgoigne and her predicament. A very, very sad situation.
What I do also find sad is the emphatic tone of some posts regarding the 'spread' of sarcoids. It is known that the BPV is the cause in susceptible horses. Not a 'unique situation' when we consider the effect of HPV and cervical cancer in women. We do not know who is susceptible in horses or humans. We are lucky now to have a vaccine for HPV and cervical cancer.
The RVC states that ' although parts of the virus (DNA and protein) have been detected on flies, infectious (whole) virus has not....... and at present there is no evidence to suggest that horses affected by sarcoids are a threat to others'.
I wouldn't have a problem with a sarcoid affected horse near my horses. Just my personal take on the situation
 
JoA said:
I have read through this thread and feel nothing but sympathy for the horse, the owner and Lady Gasgoigne and her predicament. A very, very sad situation.
What I do also find sad is the emphatic tone of some posts regarding the 'spread' of sarcoids. It is known that the BPV is the cause in susceptible horses. Not a 'unique situation' when we consider the effect of HPV and cervical cancer in women. We do not know who is susceptible in horses or humans. We are lucky now to have a vaccine for HPV and cervical cancer.
The RVC states that ' although parts of the virus (DNA and protein) have been detected on flies, infectious (whole) virus has not....... and at present there is no evidence to suggest that horses affected by sarcoids are a threat to others'.
I wouldn't have a problem with a sarcoid affected horse near my horses. Just my personal take on the situation
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I wouldn't want bleeding sarcoids near a young horse of mine, especially if it had an open wound itself.

I'm not prejudiced against horses with sarcoids, I've had plenty to deal with in the past, but they must catch BPV from somewhere and until its proven only to come from cows or from the mother, then I think caution is wise with young horses.
.
 
ycbm said:
I wouldn't want bleeding sarcoids near a young horse of mine, especially if it had an open wound itself.

I'm not prejudiced against horses with sarcoids, I've had plenty to deal with in the past, but they must catch BPV from somewhere and until its proven only to come from cows or from the mother, then I think caution is wise with young horses.
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Of course flys spread sarcoids common sense demands it .
How the heck do they get from the cows to the horses .
 
JoA said:
I have read through this thread and feel nothing but sympathy for the horse, the owner and Lady Gasgoigne and her predicament. A very, very sad situation.
What I do also find sad is the emphatic tone of some posts regarding the 'spread' of sarcoids. It is known that the BPV is the cause in susceptible horses. Not a 'unique situation' when we consider the effect of HPV and cervical cancer in women. We do not know who is susceptible in horses or humans. We are lucky now to have a vaccine for HPV and cervical cancer.
The RVC states that ' although parts of the virus (DNA and protein) have been detected on flies, infectious (whole) virus has not....... and at present there is no evidence to suggest that horses affected by sarcoids are a threat to others'.
I wouldn't have a problem with a sarcoid affected horse near my horses. Just my personal take on the situation
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You might be happy with it but I think many people wouldn't.

Have you ever had to deal with sarcoids?
 
Goldenstar said:
Of course flys spread sarcoids common sense demands it .
How the heck do they get from the cows to the horses .
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I'm prepared to accept that it was a long, long ago transfer that doesn't happen now and that transfer now is mother to foal, but only if they prove it. Until then, like you, I'll take the most obvious conclusion that it spreads from cows to horses via flies and from horses to horses via flies.
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I seen pictures of a horse who was being treated in a hospital environment it was next to a horse with a sarcoid .
Horse 1 had a huge open leg wound horse 2 had sarcoids that were raw .
Horse developed a huge sarcoid of the same type ( they did some of test on them ) on the leg wound .
It’s was gross .
This shown to me as an example of why you must be careful with horses after sarcoid removal or with an open sarcoid .
 
Goldenstar said:
I seen pictures of a horse who was being treated in a hospital environment it was next to a horse with a sarcoid .
Horse 1 had a huge open leg wound horse 2 had sarcoids that were raw .
Horse developed a huge sarcoid of the same type ( they did some of test on them ) on the leg wound .
It’s was gross .
This shown to me as an example of why you must be careful with horses after sarcoid removal or with an open sarcoid .
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I think that's in a Knottenbelt (world expert) video, and was pretty well established that the transfer was horse to horse in a veterinary hospital.
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This is a matter close to my heart now.

Below is a fairly comprehensive paper summarising studies into sarcoids, transmission and BPV. Half went way over my head and I would need Google to translate it from science speak into idiot speak for me, but the gist I got was yes BPV is likely to be major causative factor and that flies exposed to sarcoid tissue did show BPV virus presence (although less than those exposed to bovine BPV tissue) but that there are genetic susceptibilities that predispose some horses to develop sarcoids and others not to on exposure to the virus.


BBP was in a field next to cattle as a 3yo for a few months and then no cattle for miles since then. It is curious to me that he developed 1 sarcoid aged about 8 years old which was successfully treated with photodynamic therapy, and then at age 16 developed what ended up being rapid growing sarcoids.

The first sign of the recent sarcoids was observed 3 months after introducing my little Irish pony, fresh from Sligo where he could well have been kept with cattle at some point. Irish pony also began to develop sarcoids at trauma sites that same year (high stress time of being imported and then a ruptured tendon) and has continued to do so. The other 4 horses we have had here over that same time have shown no sign of developing them to date (1 has now moved and 1 has passed away so can’t follow up on those). The newest is I believe a standardbred x Connemara and it looks like Standardbreds tend to be less predisposed to them than some other breeds. I can’t find the study, but a representative of the British Thoroghbred Association seemed to think that some familial lines are predisposed to them compared to others.

BBP had also shown an exaggerated immune response to pollen and to insect bites throughout his life, not in a sweetitch way but huge weeping welts at certain times of year. I haven’t looked into it much yet, but I would be fascinated to know if there is a link to hypermobility and sarcoid development and other autoimmune disorders. In humans, there seems to be a link between some types of Ehler Danlos Syndromes and mast cell activation disorders, where the mast cells produce an excess of inflammatory chemicals in an allergic type response. That certainly sounds familiar in BBP with his allergic responses. Whether fibroblast response is completely different I don’t know. I’m not clever enough. I’m mostly curious as the two affected are the only two to show a degree of hypermobility. BBP throughout his entire body and the Connemara through his spine.
 
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