Sarcoids - this is WAR!

[eggs]

Sorry to hear about your battle with sarcoids. Just a thought, if Ludo does have a suppressed immune system it might be worth testing for Lyme's disease. A friend's horse presented with all sorts of weird symptoms which suggested an immune system issue. Vets were stumped but a German friend of hers suggested testing for Lyme's which she did and it was.

 

[cundlegreen]

I've never even heard of this. I'll do some research, thank you.

I have used this on a backward 3 yr old who has had a sarcoid on his eyelid since a yearling. I do all I can to help his immune system, and have also given him a homeopathic treatment which helped push out a lot of the sarcoid. The cream def helped, and a large portion fell away. it's come back a lot smaller so I shall just work away at it, and hopefully as he gets stronger, he will get resistance anyway. Your horse has had quite a lot going on since coming to you, so hopefully the stress reaction will improve as he gets mentally stronger.

 

[ycbm]

Sorry to hear about your battle with sarcoids. Just a thought, if Ludo does have a suppressed immune system it might be worth testing for Lyme's disease. A friend's horse presented with all sorts of weird symptoms which suggested an immune system issue. Vets were stumped but a German friend of hers suggested testing for Lyme's which she did and it was.

Well that's a very good suggestion, since we are in deer country. Thank you.

 

[ycbm]

Tonight's update is that the new one on the central line of his belly dropped off during the day. And suspicious regrowth on the margin of one on his chest has disappeared after treatment this morning, and suspicious regrowth on one on his neck treated this morning has reacted, died, and should be ok by tomorrow. No change in the occult one yet. Sheath and inside hind leg dying back nicely. All ball roots look dead and sorted. He's bright and happy, as he has been all the time. Sarc-ex is on order.

 

[meleeka]

Tonight's update is that the new one on the central line of his belly dropped off during the day. And suspicious regrowth on the margin of one on his chest has disappeared after treatment this morning, and suspicious regrowth on one on his neck treated this morning has reacted, died, and should be ok by tomorrow. No change in the occult one yet. Sheath and inside hind leg dying back nicely. All ball roots look dead and sorted. He's bright and happy, as he has been all the time. Sarc-ex is on order.

That’s a quick reaction! I would never have thought anything would work that quickly. (Not doubting you of course but that is impressive).

 

[ycbm]

If I can catch them when they are 2 mm or less in size, they come off within a day unless they've spread under the skin before raising it up.

 

[Mule]

If I can catch them when they are 2 mm or less in size, they come off within a day unless they've spread under the skin before raising it up.

You'll be seeing them in your dreams 😮

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Copper Sulphate is wonderful stuff! By attacking them hard and fast at least they don't have a chance to take a proper hold. We have had a few horses at work that have had the flat type (I have no idea what they are called!) That have disappeared by themselves after a few years and clipping sessions. A few have been lasered with great success - including on an eyelid. But one horse we have just now keeps regrowing no matter what we do. He had a horrible one on his neck just by his jugular that was banded off. It came back with a venegnce so was cut out and a large section of skin etc removed. It came back so it was treated with a cream (I cant remember which one off of the top of my head) and it died a little bit before growing back very aggressively. It currently has another band on. I can't see us ever getting rid of this damned thing but we can't just leave it as it gets bigger and bigger all the time.

Your lad must have a heart of gold and a very high pain threashold if he still allows you to attack him in such a way almost every day! A lot of horses would be fed up and fighting by now!

 

[Michen]

Oh bloody hell sorry to read this I’ve had very good results in the past with bloodroot cream if your current method stops working. 50 pounds online. Not quite the same but feel your pain, I had this removed from Boggle at Christmas, a lipoma (I had posted about it, left it alone but it became more rooted so had it taken out) but I forever worry now as to whether they will reoccur somewhere I can’t find the like the intestine...

Fingers crossed Ludo will grow out of it, I have no idea if there’s a link but if he’s inwardly stressy would something like a protexin syringe help when he goes out and about help?

 

[ycbm]

EKW copper sulphate doesn't seem to hurt in the same way as Liverpool cream. It certainly first hurt when it goes on, just when you pick at it. But he does indeed have a heart of gold. If he walks away I put a headcollar on him but I still don't tie him up. I can almost feel him grit his teeth and say, go on, pick the scabs off then, do your worst, I know you're trying to help me.

Has anyone tried copper sulphate on the one you describe? I've been looking on t'interweb and it's been known about by farmers for a long long time for use on cows, and by farriers for nearly as long.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

I guess the copper sulphate works more in a quick sting on first appliance rather than the long term burning of the likes of liverpool cream. I will suggest using copper sulphate if it regrows again once the banded bit has fallen off but it's taking a ruddy long time to die! We have always just used it for proud flesh, never really thought of using it for anything else.

 

[ycbm]

Oh bloody hell sorry to read this I’ve had very good results in the past with bloodroot cream if your current method stops working. 50 pounds online. Not quite the same but feel your pain, I had this removed from Boggle at Christmas, a lipoma (I had posted about it, left it alone but it became more rooted so had it taken out) but I forever worry now as to whether they will reoccur somewhere I can’t find the like the intestine...

Fingers crossed Ludo will grow out of it, I have no idea if there’s a link but if he’s inwardly stressy would something like a protexin syringe help when he goes out and about help?

View attachment 30435

Ugh, that looks nasty, M. Where was it?

I'll check out protexin, thanks for the suggestion.

Bloodroot is well documented. It certainly works if you get the right strength, and it contains a pretty powerful corrosive chemical. I can never help smiling when people (not you) call it natural. Yes, so are great white sharks 😊. It's on my list next if copper sulphate ever fails me.

 

[Michen]

Ugh, that looks nasty, M. Where was it?

I'll check out protexin, thanks for the suggestion.

Bloodroot is well documented. It certainly works if you get the right strength, and it contains a pretty powerful corrosive chemical. I can never help smiling when people (not you) call it natural. Yes, so are great white sharks 😊. It's on my list next if copper sulphate ever fails me.

It was in the swirly bit of the flank.... if I wasn’t almost asleep on my feet right now I’m sure I’d remember the technical term haha. Never caused him any pain or both but I didn’t like it when it became less mobile and broken ankle seemed like a good time to have it removed.

Ha, yes, nothing natural about the way it burns and the mess it creates. Effective though. Friend had great success with it on her grey mare as well.

 

[Greyhorse1]

Is the copper sulphate a powder or liquid? How do you apply it?

Mine has two small sarcoids, one occult and one modular and I’ve tried all of the usual things (including vets and banding!) but nothing’s got rid of them.
I’ve also tried tried treating them systemically which did nothing at all.

 

[ycbm]

I guess the copper sulphate works more in a quick sting on first appliance rather than the long term burning of the likes of liverpool cream. I will suggest using copper sulphate if it regrows again once the banded bit has fallen off but it's taking a ruddy long time to die! We have always just used it for proud flesh, never really thought of using it for anything else.

It doesn't even seem to sting. Applying it isn't any problem, only picking off the dead stuff to get a clear surface to have a go at the next layer.

 

[ycbm]

Is the copper sulphate a powder or liquid? How do you apply it?

Mine has two small sarcoids, one occult and one modular and I’ve tried all of the usual things (including vets and banding!) but nothing’s got rid of them.
I’ve also tried tried treating them systemically which did nothing at all.

Powder. Sold as a fungicide on eBay £10 a kilo or less.. If the sarcoids are dry, stick it on with sudocrem. Do it every day until it's weeping and yucky, then wipe off the yuck every day and do it again, and again, until it's below skin level. Then let it heal. All the time you have a clean edge of new skin, with the hole getting smaller every day, leave it. If it starts to get bigger, do it again. If it fills in too quick to be believed, do it again. If you see little circles appearing at the edges, do them and leave the rest to continue healing.

Be VERY careful. Don't start unless you are prepared to hit and hit it again until it is definitely dead. Don't do it if you don't like yuck or can't face deliberately making a hole in your own horse. Don't do it if you can't recognise infection and when it's time to call a vet.

 

[McFluff]

So sorry to read about your battle. I had a good result with Sarc-x. It was a last resort to treat my boy when we had run out of options (quote from vet was worth a try as the only thing it’ll damage is your wallet!). It took a few months, but the biggest one fell out at five months, closely followed by all the small ones. All were on his sheath area. He was on it for 9 months in total, but has been clear for years now.

 

[ycbm]

Sarc-ex arrives tomorrow.

Current inventory is:

One on mid girth sorted a year ago, has healed and is totally dormant, but with a perfectly round scar and I don't trust perfectly round scars. Currently testing to see if it will react, and will hammer it again if it does.

Belly one near umbilical scar removed last year. No sign of it.

Fly bite on neck removed, scar reducing in size quickly now 10-12 mm from original 20-25 mm. Suspect regrowth on edge treated and healing in nicely.

Fly bite on chest, removed and scar filling in quickly from 40x30 'm now 20x15mm Vague tiny circles in bottom edge treated and resolved.

Armpit. Lump at least 50x30x20mm fell out. Healing very well from the bottom up and now a scab of 30mm x 15 mm

Pip near armpit. Now a scab reducing to 15x10mm. from 20x 15 mm

Ball on belly just to one side. Ball and root gone, scabbed up well, should be healing well behind it.

Pip on central line. Dropped off, left tiny circle, now no sign.

Pip near sheath. Gone, no sign.

Pip on central line, lost small piece of skin, now healed, looks good.

Tiny mark on sheath now a round scab 25 mm diameter, waiting for it to shed.

Pip on inside thigh now a round scab 25 mm diameter, waiting for it to shed.

Possibly occult circle on inner thigh, not reacting yet, two days treatment so far.




I find this disease fascinating. It is really a shock when you treat a pip 2mm wide and get a perfectly round hole 30 mm across. Its the prefect circles that are the giveaway. When you get rid of them, the resulting scar is often very small and nowhere near circular. The mark on his sheath wasn't even that size, and the bit that's going to fall out dwarfs it. Then others, if you can get them before they've got a root going, give up with barely a mark.

Right now, I'm very happy with this progress, looking forward to starting sarc-ex tomorrow, and grateful for every day that goes by without a new one appearing.


Here's one I did years ago, this reappeared twice with more circles each time. It was a fly bite when I bought him, the perfect circles are the give away, I can see five here, can you? The blue is copper sulphate.





It ended up like this:

 

[DabDab]

Ergh, horrible, hope you can break the back of them soon.

My big idiot hasn't had a new one for about 4 years now, but I remember that constant dilemma of wanting to expose him to new experiences but not risk stressing him out well. I had to band his as they were always between his back legs and in his sheath area and we had to sedate him to get near them, but luckily none ever grew back after banding. I didn't feed sarc ex, but did start feeding guduchi, which I believe is it's main ingredient. It might well be coincidence but he never had another new one grow after I started feeding it. I kept it up until about 18 months ago and have now dropped it and still no new sarcoids (he is almost 10 now though)

 

[Goldenstar]

My friend the vet was here last night putting Liverpool cream on G .
I asked if she could remember what the immune boosting jabs when gave Fatty where she could not remember which we gave but says there’s lots so have a chat with with your vet .
fatty never got another after those jabs of course that could be coincidence.

 

[ycbm]

I was looking at his ears this morning, GS, and realising that in December/January he'd had a recurrence of aural plaques he came with, which are now gone again.

In December I sold Henry, sent one mini back to the person I bought her from (EMS I didn't want to manage and she didn't care about, and she had regretted selling), sent the other mini up the road to a friend for her grandchildren, and bought Muffin.

It seems likely that all that stress knocked him for six and allowed the plaque virus and the sarcoid virus to get a hold. Since his ears are now clear again, I think he's probably back on track, but if he gets any more I'll get the vet in.

Thanks very much for asking your vet.

 

[ycbm]

Today's updates in bold.

One on mid girth sorted a year ago, has healed and is totally dormant, but with a perfectly round scar and I don't trust perfectly round scars. Currently testing to see if it will react, and will hammer it again if it does. suspicious

Belly one near umbilical scar removed last year. No sign of it.

Fly bite on neck removed, scar reducing in size quickly now 10-12 mm from original 20-25 mm. Suspect regrowth on edge treated and healing in nicely.

Fly bite on chest, removed and scar filling in quickly from 40x30 'm now 20x15mm Vague tiny circles in bottom edge treated and resolved.

Armpit. Lump at least 50x30x20mm fell out. Healing very well from the bottom up and now a scab of 30mm x 15 mm

Pip near armpit. Now a scab reducing to 15x10mm. from 20x 15 mm

Ball on belly just to one side. Ball and root gone, scabbed up well, should be healing well behind it.

Pip on central line. Dropped off, left tiny circle, now no sign.

Pip near sheath. Gone, no sign.

Pip on central line, lost small piece of skin, now healed, looks good.

Tiny mark on sheath now a round scab 25 mm diameter, waiting for it to shed. cracked around the edge, won't release yet

Pip on inside thigh now a round scab 25 mm diameter, waiting for it to shed. cracked around the edge, won't release yet

Possibly occult circle on inner thigh, not reacting yet, two days treatment so far. reacted. Rough patch. Waiting to see how big it gets now



This is a useful diary for me, I hope people find it interesting. I'm going to be very interested in the rate of healing of his compared with Liverpool cream on yours GS, since they started at the same time. I'll pick one, the one I think is closest, the inside hind leg. Can we compare notes on when we have a full skin cover on the hole?.



Meanwhile, can I advise anyone who even imagines that they see a shadow of a circle in their horse's coat pops down to Tesco and buys their equivalent of Zovirax cold sore cream (acyclovir) and puts it on. It can't hurt if there's no virus there, and if there is it should kill it (but not cause a wound) and it might save you an awful lot of trouble later.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

Awww YCBM, I really hope you can get this sorted for Ludo. He looks to be a lovely boy and clearly trusts you implicitly allowing all of this to be done.
As someone who doesn't know a huge amount about sarcoids this thread is a valuable learning tool, I just hate that it is all Ludo's expense bless him.
Huge hugs to you, I'm surprised that YOU aren't coming out in lumps trying to keep on top of it all!!!

 

[ycbm]

I've only just realised that this picture includes a perfect example of what people need to look for. Ignore the main stuff which is obvious. Look two inches directly below it. Can you see it? A circle of hair which is darker than the rest. Actually I can see four, maybe five, two or three side by side and overlapping two below them. This is what the virus does. If I'd spotted this at the time I would have done something with it. As it happens, he sorted that one for himself, or it wasn't one. But that's exactly the kind of thing I'll be sticking acyclovir on in future.

 

[soloequestrian]

I haven't read all the replies to this but thought I'd share my experience. It's with an older horse. He had a number of sarcoids removed before I bought him, aged around 7 (with the Liverpool cream, this was before the days of lasers!). I knew him well because he was owned by the institution I worked for and it was a very stressful place for horses to be. He had developed several new sarcoids by the time I bought him. They were the nodular type and not in the way of tack so I just left them alone. After the first few months of him being in a very relaxed new home they regressed. I've had him for 15 years now with no issues. If I were you, I would stop the work and let him chill and, more controversially, leave the new sarcoids for a bit to see if his immune system will kick in and start fighting them without help.

 

[ycbm]

SE, I completely understand the point you are making, but leaving them is absolutely not going to happen. There is risk to leaving them which is not matched by the risk of removing them. If left, they could reactivate at any time something knocks a horses immune system down and go wild, like chicken pox can. They can also spread virus to other parts of the body even though they look dormant, and to other horses via flies. If nothing else, I think I owe it to all the other horse owners in the area to remove them, but happily that's also my own inclination.

Also, I think you may have missed post 51 where I have explained where I believe the stress came from that knocked his immune system down. If I'm right about that, then stopping him going out to places now would be pointless, but I understand why you suggest it.

..

 

[Old school]

I had a gorgeous horse that was a walking sarcoid. On eye lids, nose, stomach line, inside of hind legs. Everywhere and every type, flat, pendulous, dry and some oozing. Tried a few potions and banding. No avail. Fired him out on grass for 18 months. All of them cleared completely. You would never ever have know he had them. He was 5 when he got them. By 7 fully clear.

 

[ycbm]

Old School, spontaneous remission is well known for sarcoids, and differs by breed. You were very lucky. It's not a chance I'm prepared to take.

 

[poiuytrewq]

I’ll be keeping an interested eye on this thread. New horse had a sarcoid a few years ago, a nasty little one right under his girth.
It’s gone now (it was banded)and he’s been (🤞) clear since but useful to know all the options.

 

[ycbm]

P, you should be OK with a single, fingers crossed. Probably one fly bite that didn't spread. It's multiples popping up here there and everywhere that are a serious concern because of how widespread the virus is. I wish someone was looking for a vaccine. They've got one for the papilloma virus that causes cervical cancer in women, I'm guessing there's just not enough money in it for one to be developed for sarcoids in horses.

.