Sarcoids - this is WAR!

[ycbm]

I was away for the weekend so everything got left for a day and a half. Today's updates in bold.

One on mid girth sorted a year ago, has healed and is totally dormant, but with a perfectly round scar and I don't trust perfectly round scars. Currently testing to see if it will react, and will hammer it again if it does. . no reaction yet, beginning to feel hopeful that it's just a scar.

Belly one near umbilical scar removed last year. No sign of it.

Fly bite on neck removed, scar reducing in size quickly now 10-12 mm from original 20-25 mm. Suspect regrowth on edge treated and healing in nicely. healing Well

Fly bite on chest, removed and scar filling in quickly from 40x30 'm now 20x15mm Vague tiny circles in bottom edge treated and resolved. clear 5mm circle in the top half of the wound, although the rest is healing in well. Circle treated

Armpit. Lump at least 50x30x20mm fell out. filled to skin level, scab reduced in size, clean and looks good

Pip near armpit. Now a scab reducing to 15x10mm. from 20x 15 mm proud flesh. No big deal. Got a bit of copper on it tonight and it will have shrunk back by tomorrow

Ball on belly just to one side. . Scab shed. Looks really good, hole isn't deep and edges are coming in well.

Pip on central line. Dropped off, left tiny circle, now no sign.

Pip near sheath. Gone, no sign.

Pip on central line, lost small piece of skin, now healed, looks good.

Tiny mark on sheath released. 30 mm round hole, not very deep but brand new so looks nasty

Pip on inside thigh released. 25 mm hole, new and looks nasty but very shallow

Possibly occult circle on inner thigh shedding at least three circles which are joining up with the one above. Triangular patch 50x40x30 is going to shed, but only skin deep so looks worse than it is.

 

[ycbm]

Today's updates in bold.

One on mid girth sorted a year ago, has healed and is totally dormant, but with a perfectly round scar and I don't trust perfectly round scars. Currently testing to see if it will react, and will hammer it again if it does. . no reaction yet by Sunday, but the scar is no longer circular and is shrinking more of an oblong.

Belly one near umbilical scar removed last year. No sign of it.

Fly bite on neck removed, scar reducing in size quickly now 10-12 mm from original 20-25 mm. Suspect regrowth on edge treated and healing in nicely.

Fly bite on chest, removed and scar filling in quickly from 40x30 'm now 20x15mm Vague tiny circles in bottom edge treated and resolved. very clear 5mm circle in the top half of the wound, although the rest is healing in well. Circle treated again.

Armpit. Lump at least 50x30x20mm fell out. scab reduced in size, clean and looks good

Pip near armpit. Now a scab reducing to 15x10mm. from 20x 15 mm proud flesh from yesterday gone. Scabbed up and much smaller.

Ball on belly just to one side. . Looking good, getting smaller.

Pip on central line. Dropped off, left tiny circle, now no sign.

Pip near sheath. Gone, no sign.

Pip on central line, lost small piece of skin, now healed, looks good.

Tiny mark on sheath 30 mm round hole scabbed over and should heal under scab

Pip on inside thigh 25 mm hole scabbed over and should heal under scab

Occult circles on inner thigh shedding patch 50x40x30, including the one above, but most is only skin deep




He's very bright and happy in himself, and nothing seems to be bothering him unless i pick at it. The sarc-ex hasn't arrived yet, I'm hoping it will turn up later.

 

[Goldenstar]

Last I heard they had a vaccine just about ready for testing i can’t remember where they are working on that . I will ask my vet when she comes to but the next load of Liverpool cream on G tomorrow.

 

[ycbm]

All looking good. The scar left last year by the one on the girth has reduced in size and is no longer circular, more of a line, so I caught something there. The armpit is particularly amazing, given how horrible the hole looked to start with and the fact it's in a place you might expect to rub and prevent healing. Far from it, it's reducing in size every day. Everything else is either shedding dead stuff, no more than skin deep, or growing in new skin nicely. No new ones. Phew.

I've started using aloe vera on the holes, because it speeds up the growth of skin cells by up to a third, and the sooner they close the better, with flies arriving soon. It also appears to be very soothing. On his back leg he started to say 'no, please don't touch it any more', and then the aloe went on and he almost sighed with relief.

The next time I have a vet out I will get them to sedate him to drop his penis, because I want to take a really good look and make sure he has none hidden up his sheath. There no suggestion at the moment that he does, but I want to be sure.

The sarc-ex arrived after a fight with FedEx about where it had got to, and even better he will eat it, so he's on a full dose already. Interestingly the last horse I had with multiple sarcoids, I also gave sarc-ex. He also ate it, until a couple of months after they were all gone, when he refused to eat it any more. I wonder if the same thing will happen this time?.

 

[tristar]

you should be a scientist

 

[ycbm]

you should be a scientist

I didn't like the maths! Though I did love statistics when I studied it later.

I have an industrial quantity of aciclovir arriving in a day or two from eBay, and one tube of Zovirax (Tesco and Boots own both out of stock ) on standby for any more shadows in the coat.

All good today, but the old one on the girth was alive and is now dying again, and another bit of the occult patch on the inside of the hind leg is shedding but with very little depth to it, just the very top layer of skin, so it was caught very early. He's loving the aloe vera when I put it on and it's had a dramatic effect already in shrinking everything.

I researched the sarc-ex last time I bought it, and it contains a number of herbal type products, several of which have reasonable evidence for tumour suppression and/or immune system boosting. I have everything crossed that we have stopped any more from breaking out.

His whole system is pretty clearly riddled with the virus, these aren't just individual fly bites, he's got lesions from one end of him to the other, at least fourteen in total, and that's only if I've spotted them all. If we can keep him alive until he's six, another two years, we should, with luck, be in the clear.

If a vaccine ever arrives, he'll be first on the list!

 

[tristar]

heard good things about zovirax, my only horse that had them i gave fast fibre i am sure it helped him, and the aluspray was a great help

someone gave me a huge aloe vera plant with several babies and we now use that , straight from the plant, and when i was ill and had a sore stomach i bought aloe vera drinkfrom tesco, it really settle the stomach and tastes delicious

 

[J&S]

I cured the coloured mare of sarcoids by using homeopathic remedies plus freezing off one which had just got too big to be dealt with that way. As a matter of interest, my vet who administered the remedies/freezing told me NOT to use aloe Vera because of the reason you have stated......... it is very active. The mare's foal developed a large one on a stem which we banded off. No more ever occurred. I used the remedy on the mare, tailing off to only three, then twice per week for about three years. Sadly this vet moved to New Zealand but the job was luckily already done by then. Because homeopathic remedies cure a problem miasmically it will also prevent any more problems in their progeny. I also believe that with these remedies the horse/pony knows when they don't need it any more and will refuse it. I am aware there is no scientific basis for what I have just written, but it did happen!

 

[Leo Walker]

I cured the coloured mare of sarcoids by using homeopathic remedies plus freezing off one which had just got too big to be dealt with that way. As a matter of interest, my vet who administered the remedies/freezing told me NOT to use aloe Vera because of the reason you have stated......... it is very active. The mare's foal developed a large one on a stem which we banded off. No more ever occurred. I used the remedy on the mare, tailing off to only three, then twice per week for about three years. Sadly this vet moved to New Zealand but the job was luckily already done by then. Because homeopathic remedies cure a problem miasmically it will also prevent any more problems in their progeny. I also believe that with these remedies the horse/pony knows when they don't need it any more and will refuse it. I am aware there is no scientific basis for what I have just written, but it did happen!

Homeopathy doesn't work. The scientific basis for what you have written is the placebo affect.

 

[annunziata]

so my mare had 2 sarcoids on her chest I uses an arcequine on her and within 3 months they totally fell off and they never came back

 

[ycbm]

I cured the coloured mare of sarcoids by using homeopathic remedies

I think what you saw was spontaneous remission. Nobody has ever been able to prove that homeopathy has any beneficial effect on an animal. And the effect on humans is the placebo effect.

As a matter of interest, my vet told me NOT to use aloe Vera because of the reason you have stated......... it is very active.

Yes, of course. You don't use aloe vera on a live sarcoid because it will make it grow quicker. But if it's dead and gone, it makes the skin grow in quicker. And if you have any rogue cells left (it only takes one), then you get to know about it quicker.

 

[ycbm]

so my mare had 2 sarcoids on her chest I uses an arcequine on her and within 3 months they totally fell off and they never came back

Spontaneous remission is well known. In addition, current tests on electrical stimulation in mice is showing that devices like the Arc that use an electrical field probably have some effectiveness in healing wounds.

 

[ycbm]

Well some interesting things are going on! Two days after going on the sarc-ex, a 10 mm circle of hair fell out on his neck. He's moulting fast, so hair loss is no surprise, but circles are always something to be wary of with horses with sarcoids. At the same time, some shadows that I thought I saw on the inside of his hind leg no longer seem to be there. And yesterday I put acyclovir (Zovirax) on the circle, and this morning it isn't a circle, but irregular and smaller, and it's difficult to see. So that got more aciclovir today and I'll keep treating it until I'm sure that either the acyclovir or the sarc-ex has killed any virus.

Everything is looking really good today. The scabs are falling off his sheath. I treated one tiny little mark, that I felt but couldn't see. He lost two perfect circles, each 25 mm across. Thankfully not horrendously deep rooted, but much bigger than expected and I had no idea the second was even there. He's now happy for me to touch it.

In the occult stuff inside the left hind leg, which I only treated because I thought I saw a shadow of a circle there, he's lost two circles 25mm each, plus the top layer of skin of an irregular area around them. And another very irregular patch of the top layer of skin only a bit further over and lower down.

Everything is healing up very nicely, no infection, no serious scarring. The scars on his neck and chest are healing as pink skin in an area of pink and black mottled skin with very little hair cover (an Appaloosa trait), so they are barely going to show. And thankfully they are the only ones that are in a place you would see them. Not that what he looks like is my main priority, but it's a bonus.

The scar on the girth from more than a year ago, which healed as a 10mm circular plug that I was unhappy about, has broken open in a rough surfaced circle 30mm wide, with no particular depth to it at all. I think his body had contained it at skin level and was controlling it, but I'll be happier to see it gone completely.

Current strategy is to watch and wait, and attack anything that regrows on the healing areas. Then to do an inventory every day for new ones, and treat anything that I can feel aggressively, but clip and use acyclovir on anything which is only colour in the hair, or hair loss with no skin changes.

Thanks to the people who gave me the acyclovir information, it's more than useful. I will have some in the cupboard permanently from now on.

Total count of separate identifiable dead sarcoids, not including regrowth, but including all the very tiny ones that disappeared without a murmur, is approaching twenty. I'm kicking myself that I didn't put him on sarc-ex after the first two more than a year ago, but it's easy to be wise after the event. I don't want to hope too soon, but I think we're going to be OK, for now at least.

 

[oldie48]

Very interested to read this. Rose has a suspicious grey circle on her inside back thigh, noted and discussed with vet when she was vetted at the end of October and big price reduction negotiated. Vet said keep an eye on it and it's not changed, however to my dismay I saw a scaly grey patch on her face a few weeks ago which looked very much like an occult. It seems to have gone but the grey hairless circle on her inner thigh is still there. Should I use acyclovir? I'm pretty certain she has an occult on her thigh but I've always understood it's better to leave if it's not causing a problem. i am now in two minds!

 

[ycbm]

My understanding is the acyclovir kills the virus but not the cell, so you should not end up with a wound. The evidence is a bit sketchy, the basic mechanism of acyclovir apparently won't work on a bovine papilloma virus because the DNA is wrong, and it doesn't penetrate far, but it's harmless and doesn't break the bank so I'm giving it a go.

It's always a worry with one, whether to touch it or not. I think most people would err on the side of continuing to watch it.

In have always removed them because I have always had in mind that I might want to sell the horse later. I don't think Ludo will ever be for sale, but it isn't safe to let multiples go on spreading themselves, or to keep other horses near one with them in case the flies spread the virus to another one.

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I cured the coloured mare of sarcoids by using homeopathic remedies plus freezing off one which had just got too big to be dealt with that way. As a matter of interest, my vet who administered the remedies/freezing told me NOT to use aloe Vera because of the reason you have stated......... it is very active. The mare's foal developed a large one on a stem which we banded off. No more ever occurred. I used the remedy on the mare, tailing off to only three, then twice per week for about three years. Sadly this vet moved to New Zealand but the job was luckily already done by then. Because homeopathic remedies cure a problem miasmically it will also prevent any more problems in their progeny. I also believe that with these remedies the horse/pony knows when they don't need it any more and will refuse it. I am aware there is no scientific basis for what I have just written, but it did happen!

I know an excellent vet who has removed/suppressed sarcoids with acupuncture.

 

[ycbm]

I found this interesting article, and the picture is even more fascinating.

https://thehorse.com/150900/evidence-based-equine-sarcoid-treatments-reviewed/

It would be a nightmare to treat that fairly simple looking sarcoid. There are four circles below it, curving to the right ending at the bottom of the picture, and two, possibly three, above it. The horse would end up with a massive wound if anyone messed with that. It's a shame nobody spotted what it was when it was tiny and before it spread, and got rid of it.

 

[oldie48]

My understanding is the acyclovir kills the virus but not the cell, so you should not end up with a wound. The evidence is a bit sketchy, the basic mechanism of acyclovir apparently won't work on a bovine papilloma virus because the DNA is wrong, and it doesn't penetrate far, but it's harmless and doesn't break the bank so I'm giving it a go.

It's always a worry with one, whether to touch it or not. I think most people would err on the side of continuing to watch it.

In have always removed them because I have always had in mind that I might want to sell the horse later. I don't think Ludo will ever be for sale, but it isn't safe to let multiples go on spreading themselves, or to keep other horses near one with them in case the flies spread the virus to another one.

Thanks for this, I'll continue watching it. I've had horses in the past with the odd suspicious lump and just kept a watch, one had what looked like a small verrucous looking lump on the elbow which I had surgically removed because of where it was and that was the end of it. they are bloody horrible things and unfortunately seem so common these days, or is it because we notice them more? Good luck with Ludo and hopefully you win the war!

 

[ycbm]

I know an excellent vet who has removed/suppressed sarcoids with acupuncture.

Evidence is little better than for homeopathy/placebo I'm afraid PaS.

 

[ycbm]

Thanks for this, I'll continue watching it. I've had horses in the past with the odd suspicious lump and just kept a watch, one had what looked like a small verrucous looking lump on the elbow which I had surgically removed because of where it was and that was the end of it. they are bloody horrible things and unfortunately seem so common these days, or is it because we notice them more? Good luck with Ludo and hopefully you win the war!

We do notice them more because they are now a point of 'vetting failure' and big reduction in value, like Rose. They used to be ignored, and called warts or angleberries.

My impression is they are getting more common. There's no reason why they wouldn't be when we are keeping more and more horses in smaller and smaller areas, and the BPV that causes them is infectious. But I haven't seen any evidence to prove an increase.

It would be really interesting to see some research whether horses kept in huge livery yards are more likely to have them than those kept in tiny herds away from other horses, and cows.

According to some research, it's also breed dependent, with quarter horses much more likely to get them than TBs, and standardbreds much less. I had a half QH two years ago who I took about twenty off. Being appy x standardbred Ludo could have gone either way and looks to have gone towards the QH genetics

 

[ycbm]

All going well except one on his chest, which is not scabbing up but filming over and going back circular. So that one gets attacked again. Everything else has scabs on it that look nice and normal and are an irregular shape. It's a funny old thing, that once the round sarcoid is dead, the resulting scar can go down to being no more than a thin line in the skin. Roundness always seems to be a bad sign.

The plug on his girth from the 'healed' one last year had about ten tiny pinprick satellites around it when it died away. It should heal nicely now, fingers crossed.

He has two circle shadows on his chest/neck which I don't intend to do anything about unless they develop. He's a spotty horse with marbled skin anyway and it's difficult to know if they are just his normal colouring. And right now, he has enough holes in him to be going on with!

He's desperate to do some work and won't leave the gate if I'm still in the yard. It's very sweet 😊. I may have to resort to doing some stuff in hand just to make him feel wanted, until the hole on his girth fills in. It's not very deep, it won't take long and I have a wool sleeve ready to use while the skin is still new and thin.

I have no idea if the sarc-ex or the acyclovir are doing anything, but I feel better for using them and they aren't hurting.

 

[Goldenstar]

I think the main thing the acyclovir will be doing is killing any virus it comes in contact with a good thing if you have other horses around .
G had his last treatment with the Liverpool cream on Friday we have got a big reaction and a fair bit of swelling which I am controlling with Danilon .
Today should be the day it looks it worst should start to settle from now .
He’s a little down not helped by a huge rub on his neck from his outdoor rug he went up the ten hours turnout from three and that was enough to cause a spectacular mess .
So he can’t wear rugs so he’s a little cold all the time poor G .

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Evidence is little better than for homeopathy/placebo I'm afraid PaS.

If you wish to discuss that, you will have to take it up with the vet, ycbm. I can PM you his name if you would like.

It wasn't my horse that had the sarcoid, the vet was treating one of ours with a muscle problem, when he was talking about it. 2 of our horses have responded well to vet administered acupuncture for muscle problems and I have had acupuncture treatment from a GP, which certainly made a difference to my muscle problem *immediately*. I hobbled into the surgery, almost bent double, could barely get up onto the couch to be examined and practically skipped out of the surgery at the end of the treatment.

As the vet is well qualified and the GP is a Professor of Medicine, teaching at a well-known university, I am happy to be guided by them.

 

[ycbm]

You know you've got it on the run when you get the swelling full of water round it, don't you, GS? I find that happens just before they fall off. Hopefully the Liverpool cream will have completely killed G's one off. Bad news about the rug rub, he must be very thin skinned 😒

 

[Goldenstar]

I am gutted about the rug rub .
He’s looking very grown up now big butch top line it’s the only thing I can think of that caused it he’s worn the rug all winter .
Years ago J got exactly the same from the same brand of rug Tatts is living out in the same type wearing the rug no problems 24/7.

 

[ycbm]

I am gutted about the rug rub .
He’s looking very grown up now big butch top line it’s the only thing I can think of that caused it he’s worn the rug all winter .
Years ago J got exactly the same from the same brand of rug Tatts is living out in the same type wearing the rug no problems 24/7.

Sometimes you could believe they enjoy worrying us!

 

[ycbm]

Looking good. Nothing new, nothing under active treatment. Everything treated scabbing up and healing in. I go on about scabs because my experience is that if it doesn't scab with a nearly black crunchy scab, it's not sorted. BUT...

some VERY interesting stuff going on. The plug on his girth which was only about 10-12 mm wide and gave every impression of being completely dormant, fell out .... and took with it a 40mm !! wide perfect circle of skin depth. It will fill in rapidly as it is so shallow, but it's shockingly big for something that was apparently 'fixed'.

A circle of dark hair that I have been putting acyclovir on, on his chest, has spat out a tiny pip from the exact centre.

A healing area on his neck that stopped getting smaller and gave a suspicion of going back into two circles has reduced in size and gone into a line after putting acyclovir on it.

Some fairly big areas of shadowing inside his left hind leg are shedding and leaving clear skin growing hair, and there is another area shedding and leaving clear skin with no hair on his sheath.

I am trying not to hope too hard, or see things which aren't really happening, but I am getting the impression that the sarc-ex, or his own immune system, or both combined, have kicked in and are doing something. And the acyclovir (thank you, thank you to the people who suggested this, I love this forum !!) does look as if it has an impact on occult shadows and preventing regrowth on treated areas. It feels like a corner has been turned, anyway.

Ludo is the most stunning mover I have ever sat on, as well as being a lovely, lovely character. I so hope I can keep him alive!

 

[ycbm]

Going well. The circle that spat out the tiny pip spat out a bigger pip the following two days in a row and has now healed. Everything is healing up. Nice new skin, still growing hair, is under the dying stuff on the inside of his hind leg and there is also nice new skin under the scabs falling off on his sheath. The wound in his armpit is now really small, and the one on his belly where I banded the other ball is almost all healed. The wound on the girth, the last bit I did, is going to shed a second layer, again very superficial, and smaller in diameter than the first one. I am using acyclovir on that, on the circle on his chest, and on the wound from the regrowth on his chest. I've stopped using it on two other circles because they look fine. I got another batch of nine 2g tubes for £12 in the post this morning and I'll make a decision over the weekend how many more to buy. I'd like some on hand if I spot new circles in future. He looks very well, and very happy and the plaque virus inside his ears has also gone away again, so I think his immune system is back on track now

I'm almost ready to say that the first real battle of the war has been won. Let's hope that's not premature.

 

[ycbm]

Interesting developments going on. Some very nice healing of everything except the one on his chest and the girth. There's a big circular piece of skin missing on the girth which is slightly above skin level. So I put some copper sulphate on it this morning and it reduced in size by about a quarter over the next six hours. That was probably a shrinkage of proud flesh. It will be interesting to see how small it gets over the next day or two.

The one on his chest covered over with a piece of leathery looking skin like stuff, but stopped getting any smaller and remained perfectly circular.. This one has already come back once, and it always seems to be a bad sign when you don't get a proper scab and it doesn't reduce in size from the outside edge inwards. So I put more copper sulphate on it this morning, and again it was at least 25% smaller after six hours. I don't know if that skin was sarcoid regrowth or dried up proud flesh, but the solution is the same for both anyway.

I'm pretty happy everything is under control, if not quite yet beaten. There have been no new ones since I started this thread and no circle I've put acyclovir on has developed. Between the copper, acyclovir and sarc-ex, I think we'll get there.

 

[Palindrome]

Good news, I hope everything heals well.