Saturday at Aintree

[splashgirl45]

It did happen years ago , I remember a horrific one with Willie Carson , the filly broke both front legs , and I can see it now ..

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There are so many legs snapping on the flat as well I don't recall it being that frequent in previous years, definitely seems more a thing the last couple of years

I think breeding has a lot to do with it. They need to stop breeding from badly conformationed horses just because they have won races. So many of these mares that have won one or two on the beach are then shipped off to stud. 10 years ago, before beach donkey Derby racing really took off, these mares were found new careers because they weren't good enough to warrant breeding from. They weren't good enough to win on turf so no point in carrying on the line. Now the beach racing is more of a thing with decent prize money everything is being bred from. Same could be said for jumping too in some cases. Though jumps horses are bred from flat horses these days or come off the flat.

 

[GSD Woman]

Elf, I had not heard of beach racing. Having been to beaches at both coasts I've never seen but that doesn't mean much anymore. I remember back in the 1970s (?) when the filly Ruffian had to be put down due to something in the leg giving out during a race. And then there was Barbaro. A woman in TBs traced pedigrees on horse who broke down due to leg issues. At least 60% of them traced back to Northern Dancer. Yes, he was a big winner but he was known to have lower leg issues. Maybe if people weren't so hopped up to run 2 year olds and if the early races didn't have such large purses maybe that would help. But of course in too many instances money talks.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Elf, I had not heard of beach racing. Having been to beaches at both coasts I've never seen but that doesn't mean much anymore. I remember back in the 1970s (?) when the filly Ruffian had to be put down due to something in the leg giving out during a race. And then there was Barbaro. A woman in TBs traced pedigrees on horse who broke down due to leg issues. At least 60% of them traced back to Northern Dancer. Yes, he was a big winner but he was known to have lower leg issues. Maybe if people weren't so hopped up to run 2 year olds and if the early races didn't have such large purses maybe that would help. But of course in too many instances money talks.

it's what I call all weather racing Beach Donkey Derby's is was originally designed for the horses that were too bad to race on the turf and they often ran against Arab's and usually got beaten by them. I have even got some of the flat lot refer to it as Beach Donkey Derby racing.

The only racing we have on the actual beach is Laytown once a year in Ireland.

 

[Rowreach]

I think breeding has a lot to do with it. They need to stop breeding from badly conformationed horses just because they have won races. So many of these mares that have won one or two on the beach are then shipped off to stud. 10 years ago, before beach donkey Derby racing really took off, these mares were found new careers because they weren't good enough to warrant breeding from. They weren't good enough to win on turf so no point in carrying on the line. Now the beach racing is more of a thing with decent prize money everything is being bred from. Same could be said for jumping too in some cases. Though jumps horses are bred from flat horses these days or come off the flat.

You don't see the stamp of big, rangy, big boned old fashioned chaser any more. They all look like flat horses, just some have longer legs than others (I'm slightly generalising, but not much).

 

[Clodagh]

Lucinda Russell actually has some chasers that look like chasers. But generally if Arkle or even Desert Orchid turned up nowadays I think they’d be laughed out of the paddock.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

There are still old fashioned chaser types around. Usually from the Milan and Mhaler lines. Some of the French ones have big bodies on little legs. Walk In The Park's are hit and miss. They are either well built, solid horses or pathetic little weeds. But they all have the same heads. Lovely sweet heads that fit their bodies nicely.

 

[bonny]

Lucinda Russell actually has some chasers that look like chasers. But generally if Arkle or even Desert Orchid turned up nowadays I think they’d be laughed out of the paddock.

That’s just not the case, I’ve been involved with racing all my life and I’m not old enough to remember Arkle but he would still be the best if he turned up now and National hunt horses haven’t changed over the years. A lot of them have always been flat bred and if anything I would say a lot of chasers in particular are bigger nowadays. Times haven’t improved over the years despite so called improvements in horsecare.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Races haven't necessarily got faster in terms of times but the way they are run seems to have flipped round. Many go out quick for the first circuit then slow a fraction for the last part where as before they would go steady then kick on on the last circuit.

Mr Frisk's National win in 1990 is the fastest on record. 8min 46 seconds. These days the National is usually ran in 9min 6-14seconds.

 

[bonny]

Races haven't necessarily got faster in terms of times but the way they are run seems to have flipped round. Many go out quick for the first circuit then slow a fraction for the last part where as before they would go steady then kick on on the last circuit.

Mr Frisk's National win in 1990 is the fastest on record. 8min 46 seconds. These days the National is usually ran in 9min 6-14seconds.

Mr Frisk was the last horse to win a national on unwatered ground, nowadays they will water until they can have soft in the ground description, it’s what trainers want and it slows down the whole race.

 

[Gloi]

Elf, I had not heard of beach racing. Having been to beaches at both coasts I've never seen but that doesn't mean much anymore. I remember back in the 1970s (?) when the filly Ruffian had to be put down due to something in the leg giving out during a race. And then there was Barbaro. A woman in TBs traced pedigrees on horse who broke down due to leg issues. At least 60% of them traced back to Northern Dancer. Yes, he was a big winner but he was known to have lower leg issues. Maybe if people weren't so hopped up to run 2 year olds and if the early races didn't have such large purses maybe that would help. But of course in too many instances money talks.

WHAT IS ECVM | ECVM- All Breeds

www.ecvmallbreeds.com

Sharon May Davis's research into ECVM which involved the Northern Dancer lines , I'm pretty sure showed the connection between ECVM and in increased chance of leg fractures.

 

[catkin]

WHAT IS ECVM | ECVM- All Breeds

www.ecvmallbreeds.com

Sharon May Davis's research into ECVM which involved the Northern Dancer lines , I'm pretty sure showed the connection between ECVM and in increased chance of leg fractures.

I may have misread this, I think I read it in the racing press - that there is now concern in TB breeding circles that finding outcrosses without Northern Dancer is becoming difficult?

 

[Gloi]

I may have misread this, I think I read it in the racing press - that there is now concern in TB breeding circles that finding outcrosses with Northern Dancer is becoming difficult?

That's also implicated in Sharon May Davis's research, probably due to pain from the malformations.
Somewhere on the internet is a long talk with her which is absolutely fascinating and worrying if you own one of the lines involved.
Personally if I was going to spend a lot of money on a tb or warmblood (which as a pony person I'm not) I would want x rays of c6 c7 before purchase.

 

[GSD Woman]

I may have misread this, I think I read it in the racing press - that there is now concern in TB breeding circles that finding outcrosses without Northern Dancer is becoming difficult?

That would so not surprise me. I would hope that someone, somewhere would have kept some of the older, sounder bloodlines alive. Too bad they can't breed back to Native Dancer. He was a weight carrier and was able to win at all distances. Maybe some hunter breeders are outcrosses to Northern Dancer.

 

[criso]

That would so not surprise me. I would hope that someone, somewhere would have kept some of the older, sounder bloodlines alive. Too bad they can't breed back to Native Dancer. He was a weight carrier and was able to win at all distances. Maybe some hunter breeders are outcrosses to Northern Dancer.

My last one b 2002 had no northern dancer on either side, was frequently mistaken for a warmblood but too slow and lazy to race so failed as a racehorse.

 

[Gloi]

I think

That would so not surprise me. I would hope that someone, somewhere would have kept some of the older, sounder bloodlines alive. Too bad they can't breed back to Native Dancer. He was a weight carrier and was able to win at all distances. Maybe some hunter breeders are outcrosses to Northern Dancer.

Deleted until I find the source I was looking for.

 

[ycbm]

Can anyone with a Racing Post sub tell me the pedigree of Zastoi, born 1990? He was built like the proverbial brick shithouse. He failed as a racehorse because he had strangles that ruined his wind, but he would easily have been mistaken for a part bred or warmblood.
.

 

[fankino04]

Can anyone with a Racing Post sub tell me the pedigree of Zastoi, born 1990? He was built like the proverbial brick shithouse. He failed as a racehorse because he had strangles that ruined his wind, but he would easily have been mistaken for a part bred or warmblood.
.

 

[criso]

Can anyone with a Racing Post sub tell me the pedigree of Zastoi, born 1990? He was built like the proverbial brick shithouse. He failed as a racehorse because he had strangles that ruined his wind, but he would easily have been mistaken for a part bred or warmblood.
.

Just to add to fankino04's post, pedigree query is a really good site to click through various pedigrees. Click on Photos on the Reports menu to see pictures and if you back far enough oil paintings.
You have to get the horse name exactly right though, forget an apostrophe or similar and it won't find them.

Zastoi Horse Pedigree

 

[bonny]

Can anyone with a Racing Post sub tell me the pedigree of Zastoi, born 1990? He was built like the proverbial brick shithouse. He failed as a racehorse because he had strangles that ruined his wind, but he would easily have been mistaken for a part bred or warmblood.
.

He failed, presumably as he was built like a brick house and was from a useless family. Didn’t have a lot going for him and doesn’t seem to have been used as a sire.

 

[ycbm]

No Northern Dancer. Really solid horse .

 

[ycbm]

He failed, presumably as he was built like a brick house and was from a useless family. Didn’t have a lot going for him and doesn’t seem to have been used as a sire.

No, he failed because he had an abscess below his jaw as a result of strangles that made it impossible to operate on his wind. He was a racehorse, through and through, just an old fashioned chaser build. He was a fabulous big hedge country hunter in spite of sounding like a steam train

Of course he might still have been too slow if he'd been able to breath but that applies to all the lightweights I bought as well.

Used as a sire? He was a store gelding, as many NH horses used to be.

 

[bonny]

No, he failed because he had an abscess below his jaw as a result of strangles that made it impossible to operate on his wind. He was a racehorse, through and through, just an old fashioned chaser build. He was a fabulous big hedge country hunter in spite of sounding like a steam train

Of course he might still have been too slow if he'd been able to breath but that applies to all the lightweights I bought as well.

Used as a sire? He was a store gelding, as many NH horses used to be.

He ran once as a three year old on the all weather and finished last. His siblings were equally useless I’m afraid so he was hardly a NH horse, store or otherwise.

 

[criso]

This is his grandsire Drone, won 4 of 4 starts however broke down and retired to stud so being solidly built didn't guarantee soundness.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Zastoi was completely useless. Beaten 38 lengths over a mile in a beach donkey Derby race when beach donkey Derby's really were for the pits of the pits of Racehorses. So no. No one ever expected him to do absolutely anything in his career and he most certainly wasn't a national hunt store.

 

[ycbm]

Zastoi was completely useless. Beaten 38 lengths over a mile in a beach donkey Derby race when beach donkey Derby's really were for the pits of the pits of Racehorses. So no. No one ever expected him to do absolutely anything in his career and he most certainly wasn't a national hunt store.

I stand corrected. He raced once at the and three and couldn't breath when I bought him and in spite of that was a fabulous hunter. Lovely character too, a pleasure to own.
.

 

[Rowreach]

I thought it was an unwritten rule on HHO that you don't slag off another member's precious horse

 

[GSD Woman]

As for Native Dancer and breakdowns I found this:https://pastthewire.com/native-dancers-genes-too-much-of-a-good-thing/

 

[tristar]

sea the stars won 6 gr 1 races in 6 months, he has very little N D, he does have native dance through mr prospector, but is a sort of outcross.

i saw arkle in the flesh when i was oh so young, and desert orchid at a show when he retired, if i remember correctly he had quite strong bone and was not top heavy, arkle was of course the real ``look at me`` horse i always thought.

but sea the stars has a good proportion of bone to top and is valued highly at his stud fee, the stud groom reckons he gets his speed from green desert, through danzig, that is the northern dancer bit.

i only ever used northern dancer blood once, and quickly rectified it with an injection of top class arab, the one progeny had a less than perfect below the knee confo, never again.

also have, nasrullah through grey sovereign, sovereign path, and by golly you know nasrullah when you meet him even several gens on, but if you can get past the tricky personality, very tough, sound horses.

the prob with ND`s as well as the speed, they are very often such good looking individuals



the book vincent o`briens great horses, shows his grand national winners of that time, royal tan is a typical example of grand national horses from that time , its quite an interesting read as well

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

See the owner loves the horse mantra is made hard to believe (same for trainer) when you see owners like JW running her horses into the ground - look at the records for Red Happy, Django, Din Din and Abayu du Mathan in particular (unfortunately Abayu won today so they will probably see it as justified)

Fair enough if they were 5f sprints but these aren't

Yet it would appear there's been no intervention and the powers that be allow her to keep entering them. What sort of retirement could these stand up to with so many miles on the clock - look at Red Happy, only 6 years old but that many starts already? All of them almost always seem to be wearing blinkers.

Judith Wilson | Horse Records | Racing Post

Judith Wilson's historical horse records. Filter by race type and time period. Data includes runs, wins, RPR, winnings and earnings.

www.racingpost.com

Yet commentators are so quick to criticise Nicky Henderson for example for not running his horses enough, yet don't seem to call this out?

Hopefully she's an exception