Scales of training and the less than perfect horse

[ycbm]

not sure I agree with getting the same mark, a fair mark - yes, but the same mark as a horse that has sufficient balance to show more steps? 4 steps is really not a lot, it's not the test's fault that a big horse needs more time to get ready than one which is very established. As with everything in dressage, the horse that is able to show more of the same, or a better version will score more highly.

But the test only asks for 'a few'. It does not say 'a minimum of a few'. Surely it should therefore be possible to score a perfect ten for doing a perfect few?

This is one of the reasons people continue to pot hunt at lower levels, because they can beat horses that are actually producing exactly the right work for a prelim or novice if they are working above that level.

 

[tristar]

lengthened strides are asked for at low level comp dressage, before actual collection is required.

giving a young horse the opportunity to show lengthened strides early on is for me doing what the horse can do naturally, and in a natural frame.

i see no harm whatsoever in lengthened strides if the frame matches the stride, only good.

i play with all sorts with young horses in a fun way they love it, better than the stifled side reins and forced too early training of what was was it? 2 year olds.

and it would be better to have lengthened strides in novice tests down the long side, not on the diagonal, this is where i teach medium trot.

 

[milliepops]

But the test only asks for 'a few'. It does not say 'a minimum of a few'. Surely it should therefore be possible to score a perfect ten for doing a perfect few?

This is one of the reasons people continue to pot hunt at lower levels, because they can beat horses that are actually producing exactly the right work for a prelim or novice if they are working above that level.

It's a tricky one isn't it. I think the standard has improved hugely in the last decade or 15 years. I did my first affiliated novice in 2005 I think, I won both classes on 66% and under the very old rules that qualified us for regionals. 66% wouldn't cut it these days, wouldn't even be a qualifying score and it's not that judges are more generous, everyone who wants to be competitive has upped their game.

You can either compete at the top of your range, or prepare at home for longer and come out when you can ace it. If we're looking for winners to be those that are producing good tests with all the requirements delivered *well* then it's correct that the horses will be training higher at home.

I do think a winning prelim horse or a novice horse should be showing a well established way of going at their level, not be winging it. How often do we see on here riders asking if the horse has to be on the bit at intro/prelim?! Not if you just want to wing it, but yes if you want to score highly. It's a minimum requirement.
I'm talking affiliated because unaff is a very strange beast, almost pointless to discuss unaff judging as totally unregulated.

As for the medium trot strides, I haven't seen a test asking for a few, I've seen "some". The rider has to produce enough for the judge to be able to assess the medium trot not just the transitions, so 4 steps would make it rather difficult. Blink and you miss it :wink3:

 

[soloequestrian]

Well at least I feel like I'm not the only one confused... do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?

 

[DabDab]

Haha, yes no real consensus but it is an interesting subject....
Fwiw mine have been mainly blank canvases (or converted racehorses, which I count as the same thing), and I really don't worry a great deal about medium trot marks at novice. I count medium trot as natural frame and flow, in self carriage like they would be when trotting enthusiastically at liberty, so a distinct difference to working trot, but not really extension as such.
However, for the same version of this on the same horse I can get wildly different scores from different judges. Stick with the lateral - scores for those movements are much more consistent

 

[Micropony]

I agree with whoever said above that it depends on the horse and they are all different. I don't have as much experience as a lot of people on here of producing lots of different horses, but the two I have had have been/are completely different.

First was a big dressage bred WB, built comparatively uphill and once we had established basic balance (which admittedly took a while) he found mediums as easy as breathing. Novice dressage level rather than anything fancier as we couldn't produce crisp accurate transitions right at the marker, the lengthening and thd transition back to a working pace was slightly gradual. Collection however was something I could only dream of.

Current horse is smaller and SJ bred, not as naturally uphill. Medium trot in particular not so great at this stage, certainly wouldn't want to be doing it in public for marks! But laterals much easier for him. It took him about half a long side to learn shoulder in, which he did without losing his frame or quality of pace, for example. With him, decent medium paces are gradually coming from learning to take weight back and lift through his wither, but it's slow going compared to his progress with other areas of his work.

 

[tallyho!]

Well at least I feel like I'm not the only one confused... do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?

There is no "first" as far as I can see anyways...

 

[Casey76]

I agree, SE. I have a cob who is doing smashing shoulder in and half pass in canter, lovely shoulder in on trot, and credible half pass, yet he struggles to string two lengthened strides together before he falls into his forehand and runs. He's not the first horse I've had who got lateral work cracked long before he learnt to lengthen.

I really like Tallyho's model. I think that maybe comes from Philippe Karl, I recognise the 'legerete'?

My mare is similar; we've been working on all lateral work for over a year now, but only recently started to ask for lengthened strides. Only recently has she had the strength to develop the stride length without "running on." Conversely, she finds collection much easier.

 

[milliepops]

My mare is similar; we've been working on all lateral work for over a year now, but only recently started to ask for lengthened strides. Only recently has she had the strength to develop the stride length without "running on." Conversely, she finds collection much easier.

My sec D is the same, she's definitely had to learn to collect and *engage* in order to get correct lengthening. And we got to that by doing all the sideways stuff, and then compressing the working paces. She has a natural ability to sit, but when we first started lengthened strides she pushed herself onto the forehand with hindlegs out behind. She can do a giant stride but it's out of balance. As she's learned to collect and step under more, she can now deliver a good uphill medium trot... mostly! I have to be on at her to keep the hindlegs under all the time though.

 

[soloequestrian]

My sec D is the same, she's definitely had to learn to collect and *engage* in order to get correct lengthening. And we got to that by doing all the sideways stuff, and then compressing the working paces. She has a natural ability to sit, but when we first started lengthened strides she pushed herself onto the forehand with hindlegs out behind. She can do a giant stride but it's out of balance. As she's learned to collect and step under more, she can now deliver a good uphill medium trot... mostly! I have to be on at her to keep the hindlegs under all the time though.

Mine is D x TB. I'm really struggling to get any extension. He can do some nice relatively-collected work now, especially in canter, but our attempts at medium just end up rushed. The closest we get is by leg-yielding towards the centre line, half 10m circle in the 'wrong' direction compared to the leg yield, then across the diagonal to lengthen. I'm interested to know what you mean by 'compressing the working paces'?

 

[milliepops]

I'm interested to know what you mean by 'compressing the working paces'?

Good timing because for the first time in months I actually got some video that illustrates what works for mine.
Kira likes to trot with quite a slow tempo, slightly hovering - not passage but it feels like that. if you ask for medium from that trot, you get running on the forehand. She needs to get quicker and more engaged, so she can trot with her hindlegs stepping under rather than out behind.

I think you can see in this video the difference when she is engaged in the trot as the whole frame of the horse is shorter - she takes smaller more active steps, esp watch the hindlegs which begin to spend more time under the horse rather than behind her this is a work in progress, it's not the finished article but this is what we are doing. She has to be more "busy" with quicker shorter footfalls. Then she has to answer the forward aid immediately. So the compressed trot is on its way to collection, she has to wait on my seat and be in self carriage, this doesn't come from a heavy rein aid. When she goes forward, she's more engaged and more uphill rather than just wanging along in a giant stride.

[video=youtube;9uRE8-Ss1fM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uRE8-Ss1fM[/video]

We do the same in canter, as her medium canter has the same problem as medium trot (no surprise). There's a clip on my youtube channel of us doing small canter to bigger canter... don't have a clip of the medium trot that resulted from this work but it would have been a reasonable score in a test I think - she's competing medium now so nowhere to hide

 

[nikkimariet]

None of these things can exist without each other.

They are not directives, or rules. They are indicative factors of training a horse.

And if the basic training is correct, you touch on all these things right from the very start.

 

[tristar]

i don`t vote for lateral or lengthening first, its the way it seems to happen.

i consider any correctly or should i say thoroughly prepared newly broken horse, capable of moments of early collection which may show itself as balance and therefore the horse may show true lengthening at an early stage, or offer such steps.

such steps when the horse also lengthens the frame at this point of training may lay the foundation for correct medium trot, horses remember the sensation of total lengthening, and the added energy from lateral work and increased fitness makes medium trot a natural progression.

we are talking here about lengthening strides which is a novice thing, and medium trot which is more advanced trot.

 

[tallyho!]

That's a rather utopian view.

 

[tristar]

what i said is based on my personal experience, and what horses have offered me when i was willing to listen.

i don`t consider it utopian in any way, its part of normal everyday riding for me, i can`t imagine what would lead anyone to think that from what i said.

 

[milliepops]

do those who vote for the 'lengthening first' rather than 'lateral first' tend to start with unspoilt horses?

^ I think this is quite important tbh and this would kind of affect what I'd make of tristar's comments.

My section D is the closest I've ever had to unspoilt, as she had been turned away for several years and had almost no schooling, but unspoilt? Not a chance, she was well messed up! But I have been able to take it all apart and rebuild the way I wanted to, but with her own physical limitations I've still found it important to get the sideways & towards collection before the lengthening could have any quality.

Many, many of us start with horses that have some knowledge, not all of it good or useful... that have some physical development, often not symmetrical or supple... with our own bodies that aren't necessarily always under control (who else has a wandering left hand?!) - Oh! and we also spoil them ourselves while learning how to ride and train them, so very few people will start with a total blank canvas that they can 100% shape the way they choose from the start. That's why it pays to be pragmatic and flexible IMO

 

[ycbm]

It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.

 

[milliepops]

It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.

hehe, whereas having one horse that finds lengthening easy peasy, and one that likes to sit and collect, I'd choose a sitting collecting one given the option these days. She's quicker behind, has been super fun to teach the more advanced work to and has learnt stuff really fast because she finds it physically easier. The easy-lengthener has slower hindlegs which are hard to get quick underneath so stuff like flying changes has been a big headache.

 

[tallyho!]

what i said is based on my personal experience, and what horses have offered me when i was willing to listen.

i don`t consider it utopian in any way, its part of normal everyday riding for me, i can`t imagine what would lead anyone to think that from what i said.

Oh sorry I wans't referring to your post - we must have cross-posted. I was referring to nikkimarriet's. I should have quoted.

 

[tallyho!]

It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.

Training one now with a natural tendency to collect, I'd wholeheartedly agree - it takes a long time to show them how to lengthen... then do it all again in trot... then canter...

Which also shows us that rider/trainer preference is also a factor.

 

[Cortez]

It depends on the horse. I've broken quite a few. Some had lengthening absolutely inbuilt, some had to be taught. One or two really struggled. I'd choose a natural lengthen over a natural collect for training a young horse, teaching lengthening is not my strong point.

...whereas I'd always go for the collecting horse over the lolloping one; horses for peoples, I suppose.

 

[tristar]

i find natural lengthening is directly linked to ability to collect, the horse that can lengthen easily is often the one that can find collection easy too, because it has more amplitude in its paces or gear ratios which make it possible gather itself up further down the training road, its basically more athletic.

 

[Cortez]

i find natural lengthening is directly linked to ability to collect, the horse that can lengthen easily is often the one that can find collection easy too, because it has more amplitude in its paces or gear ratios which make it possible gather itself up further down the training road, its basically more athletic.

Not so with Spanish horses, the ultimate collection machines They very often have difficulty lengthening.

 

[ycbm]

...whereas I'd always go for the collecting horse over the lolloping one; horses for peoples, I suppose.

Neither of the dressage bred warmbloods which I owned which had trot lengthening installed at birth could possibly have been described as 'lolloping'

 

[ycbm]

Not so with Spanish horses, the ultimate collection machines They very often have difficulty lengthening.

I agree with what I think Tristar was trying to say. Horses I've had which which naturally lengthened also tended to find more collected work easy.

The same isn't true in the reverse direction, as the Spanish horses show.

 

[Cortez]

I agree with what I think Tristar was trying to say. Horses I've had which which naturally lengthened also tended to find more collected work easy.

The same isn't true in the reverse direction, as the Spanish horses show.

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that (I bred WB's for dressage for years). In fact one of the problems with modern dressage is that the sport has emphasized the extended paces so much that the ability to really "sit" and execute correct hind leg flexion and lowering of the croup has been lost, with rather nasty training methods being employed to try and produce it. Just as there are some not-nice things being done to Spanish horses to try and get them to flash out the extensions. It is very rare to get a horse which can truly do both ends of the spectrum equally well.

 

[ycbm]

Hmm, not sure I'd agree with that (I bred WB's for dressage for years). In fact one of the problems with modern dressage is that the sport has emphasized the extended paces so much that the ability to really "sit" and execute correct hind leg flexion and lowering of the croup has been lost, with rather nasty training methods being employed to try and produce it. Just as there are some not-nice things being done to Spanish horses to try and get them to flash out the extensions. It is very rare to get a horse which can truly do both ends of the spectrum equally well.

I see your point, I never got either of them to that stage. One was PTS, the other sold.

 

[daffy44]

Interesting discussion, personally when I back horses I teach a very basic leg yield before i even think of any lengthening, depending on the horse I ask for some basic lengthening sometime in the first year, but leg yield in the first weeks. I agree with Tristar that usually the ones that naturally lengthen also naturally shorten as they tend to be the most naturally athletic, there are of course exceptions to every rule.

I would also always choose the horse that naturally collects as my aim with my horses is Grand Prix dressage, so the collection is essential. Sadly, I think Cortez makes a very good point, warmblood breeding has focussed far too much (imo) on the extensions as more breeders are breeding for the foal/young horse market as opposed to making future GP horses, but thats another topic! But I dont think the ability to sit and lower the croup has been lost, its just a bit rarer, I have warmbloods that can both collect and extend, and I certainly havent used any nasty training methods to achieve this.

 

[tallyho!]

Leg-yield....

On my particular journey, I come across two distinct schools of thought on this: part of routine basic training or not part of basic training.

I think it needs to be done as part of basic training because it's a useful first lateral aid (and you need it to get through a gate!) and some who say not to.

Any thoughts?

 

[milliepops]

Lol, on MY particular journey it's an important piece of basic training too. Yes, for general manouverability, and also for introducing the concept of forward-sideways which is relevant to all lateral work. It's easier than any other sideways for a novice rider to learn too, I think, and leg yield along a wall is a handy stepping stone to S-In or travers for a horse that finds the concept of moving bits of its body off the track difficult.
Plus of course you need to be able to show it to a test standard at Elementary.

Just my opinion.

Once mine know more about other lateral work then I rarely ride leg yield unless I want to just do big sweeping sideways to get them mobilised after a period of more concentrated stuff. Today the cob did big LYs across the whole school to refresh the sideways aid to the right in order to help the half pass. I can't remember the last time I *schooled* a LY on Millie but then she's a lot more established..