Scales of Training/Walk & Trot Tests

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Also just a thought - if you are warming up for a W&T test then you will encounter people warming up for prelims who will be cantering around you. If you are that nervous should you be at a competition?

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Very good point!
 
I agree that a lot of participants in W/T tend to fall into the 'would rather not canter' than the genuine people that should fall into that category ie. kids going out and having a go (which should only be encouraged) and people just taking young horses out to get them used to the environment. In either case, both are now more than catered for at unaff shows.
My thoughts on the scales of training and people not appearing as if they should be competing at aff shows... From reading posts on here I understand there is quite a mixed bunch. P_G it would seem as though you have a very nice young horse that you are obviously training correctly in order to take him up through the levels. And as you said on this post, you are a perfectionist. I compete at novice level aff and am nearly ready to move up to elem in the near future. However my horse is older, has tension issues and therefore I don't always get the best out of him. I try really hard but he isn't easy and I'm always worried that other people might look at me and think that I shouldn't be there. Maybe I shouldn't, but we did everything at novice level unaff and I'm now out of all the classes, I'd rather test myself by moving onto aff level than go out pot hunting and being unfair on others.
Don't get me wrong there are people that I see out that don't seem to attempt to use the scales of training at all, I'm just trying to point out that it's not always easy for people that are on less talented horses.
 
One thing I meant to add and forgot. I am a riding school numpty. I don't have my own horse, so I compete on my lesson horse. My instructor wouldn't let me compete him until she was confident i was ready, capable of controlling him in a warm-up arena with other cantering horses, and had a good basic understanding of the Scales of Training and how the horse should be going. Maybe if there were a few more instructors around like her, the standard of riding at lower levels would be higher.
 
I wonder PG - when you first took Archie out to aff level comps, and he used to rear a lot and need to be led into the arena etc - would the pair of you have passed whatever test you think there should be to allow people to compete at aff level? Or did you stay at unaff until he could behave 100% of the time? Just curious really - I suspect some will see this as a personal attack on you, and it isn't meant to be, I am genuinely interested! I

think people (in general) get too hung up on making these things elitest, and if some of the frankly appauling riding I see at intro is now transferred to the pre-intro training classes where professionals are on hand to give useful advice, then it is all to the good and these classes should be encouraged.
 
Its nothing to do with how talented your horse is. I trained Bloss from a riding school donkey into a national champion! And she certainly wasnt talented.

When i first got her i had no idea about dressage, but through luck (my riding club) i met Kay and she helped me train her and told me when she knew i was ready to affliate (after i had done numerous unaffliated competitions). Bloss had serious tension issues, and i used to get sick with nerves. Until we had both got over this there was no way i was going to affliate her, and Kay would never have let me.

That might sound harsh to some people - that my trainer wouldnt let me affliate - but at the end of the day im grateful she didnt, as i got the best understanding in the world from her about what i should feel from my horse before i even thought about competing at affliated level.

Its nothing to do with talent - i competed Archie unaffliated when i first got him, as there was no way i was going to affliate him until i felt he could cope. As it was when i chose to affliate him he couldnt cope so i went back to the drawing board with him until he was ready.
 
You will see in my post below yours that when he was rearing was at unaffliated level. Also when he did it the first time afflaited i went BACK to unaffliated level.

Once he had got over his rearing i then took him out to affliate.

ETA - and yes he wouldve passed the test, as he got arena nerves, but was perfect in the warmup and at home and at my trainers yard.

Would you have queried Anna Ross-Davies the same when Lenny used to come down the centre line and rear??
 
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Having had some very well known professionals behave appaulingly in the warmups at recent BE events where I am doing Novice, and having read PGs posts recently about people cantering into her in warm-ups, I am not sure the lower level riders are entirely to blame for that, or that it gets better as you go up the levels!

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Agreed: I was ridden out of the arena by a group 3 who was in my novice class - I automatically made assumptions but my mum clocked her name and I looked her up - I was gobsmacked! And no matter how I look back on it there was no way I was in the wrong - she was just far more important!
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Also just to add - even when he did rear in the arena, i carried on my tests and completed them with a knowledge of the scales of training - what this post is about
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I didnt ride around with reins like washing lines kicking at him with no basis of anyform of training.
 
I personally do not think a walk and trot test should be introduced at affiliated level. I have worked really hard to get Grace to the point of affiliation, and would never have dreamed of taking her to an affiliated competition with how she used to be at the beginning. Only when she learned to settle in an arena with others and do a decent test (72% unaffil) did I decide to affliate her.

There are walk and trot tests available at unaffiliated, and I think this is a great way to start a horse off competing. But it seems crazy to pay all that money to affiliate horse and rider to do a walk and trot test. Surely, you wouldn't expect to ride a trot test and do a small round of jumps BE would you?

I do understand where BD are coming from regarding the walk and trot test, but I do not think this is the best way to encourage people. They will be warming up with Prelim riders, many of whom will also be competing at Novice, and if they are concerned about cantering then they are going to be frightened to death in the situation we all find ourselves in (dozens of horses warming up in a small area). If BD want to introduce more people, my advice would be organise lots of learning days where unaffiliated people can go and be judged by a BD judge (like a training day really). Also, more clinics would encourage people to affiliate too I think.
 
I'm with Spotted Cat on this one and can honestly say if they bring them out I'll be there with the new boy. (That's after we get through is BD assessment )

His walk and trot is now pretty much there but his canter is still a work in progress, we're taking out time doing things slowly and we know the scales.

But he's green as grass so I want to get him out and about, after the hoffici judgin I've recieved at some unaffliliated I'd really rather the chance to try him out at affiliated where I know I can get a good judge and get a comment on how we are doing at the moment.

We are very luck in that with have a group called Harmony Dressage locally who although unaffiliated will only use registered judges and also try to use the best of those they can get as well.

Most of the venues I got to there's only one arena so no major clash between the levels of competitor in the warm up either.

When yo have limited time due to work and you have a green horse who needs to experience everything I think the more choices you have the better.

I'm far happier taking a greeny out to a dressage comp than a local show with all sorts going on.

Flip side I do worry that the introduction may push the higher tests (Elem and above) out of weekend avliability and BD do need to make sure they address that issue.
 
I do feel there is a difference between 'elitest' and bad riding -It use to be that if you were under 16 at BE that you need to be assessed before doing BE.
I've seen people say one week I want to go eventing, then next week buy horse for large sum, then next you know, you see them at events and you think poor horse and me think errr what about schooling/teaching and then they become paid up members of 'the tumble club'????? or worst break said poor horse and then repeat exercise or go onto next thing!

As for warm up area i reckon there is a huge amount of 'gamemanship' going on and that you can't regulate against but folks general knowledge and training we can and defo should regulate.
I a firm beleiver in encourage folk and teaching etc..... BUT at competion are finding out who best on THAT day and if you want to show a young horse that environment brilliant, but i don't beleive you should be dumbed down to the lowest level. which i do think is happen with BE training event etc...
but hay that's my opionion
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but why not do unaffliated? thats what its for - encouraging riders in dressage and for preparing them for affliated level competitions.

The judging isnt always erratic, and in most areas i think you will find that the unafflaited judging is improving. most venues now use listed judges to judge unaffliated now aswell.
 
Two ways to look at this....

BD are doing it to make money - same as BE with the "Pre Intro" classes. Opening it up to everyone who can maintain sitting balance on a horse.

Other way is, why shouldn't it be open to everyone. Who says you have to be able to ride in a particular way. If you did, there would be a Q to compete at BD.

Have to say, some of what has been written is incredibly snobby.

BUT...I wouldn't want to judge a W&T test **Yawn** and how many judges will want to?
 
But TBH most of the kids I see BE are far more competant than some of the adults!

I don't like unaff XC as the courses are often dreadful, with very random, incredibly hard jumps in for no obvious reason, or odd striding etc etc.

I think BE have addressed the bad riding issue with the introduction of the yellow and red flags, I would like to see those rolled out at the lowest as well as the highest levels. They also have intro training days and the pre-intro classes which group you with a trainer, so I think they are doing a lot to tackle the issue of bad riding.

For dressage, I think Becki has a point - perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a tes in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.
 
I disagree. I think it is a good idea to introduce a walk trot test to encourage members. This is the first level of tests that I started out with my 18hh horse as I wanted to focus on balance and rythmn before worrying about canter. Over time I felt confident and studied the judges comments and marks and focused on these to improve with my trainer. When I felt ready and began to be placed in the top 3 then I moved on to prelims. I found walk and trot tests a good baseline and consider these a starting point on the useful scale of training. So how can they be lowering the standard of riding?

As I cannot afford many lessons, when I do I make sure that I practice and produce quality work and enter dressage tests. This way has seen a gradual improvement in our marks. One trainer I have lessons with has said my horse is talented and has athletic paces and suggest I aim to do Novice next summer. This will give me time to improve my standard of riding before we attempt Novice.

I agree with some of the comments made about the standard of riding with some riders but I bet we were all like that to start with. Those that want to improve are willing to put the time in and their efforts will be rewarded with receiving betters marks.

We all had to start somewhere. In my case, I became fed up with individuals telling me that I should lease my horse to someone who could take him up through the grades, and that he was at least elementary standard, basically implying I wasn't a good enough rider. Can't tell you the satisfaction I had in seeing their jaw crack to the floor when they saw me out competing months later! What they didn't realise was the amount of hard work, frustration and sometimes being on the point of giving up as he is not an easy horse to ride.

As a rider I will continue to focus on doing what I want to do with my horse and would encourage anyone else to do the same. Next year, finances allowing, I aim to affiliate with him and continue to aim to improve my standard of riding.
 
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but why not do unaffliated? thats what its for - encouraging riders in dressage and for preparing them for affliated level competitions.

The judging isnt always erratic, and in most areas i think you will find that the unafflaited judging is improving. most venues now use listed judges to judge unaffliated now aswell.

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Sorry PG but unaffilaited is not for me, the warmups are scary the j udging is dodgy and the surfaces often well lets just say risky.

If I'm paying my money I want constructive critisism and a safe environment. By experience affiliated gives me the best chance of that. The few unaff places that I know can provide it only use BD tests so hopefuly once the BD Walk trot test appears then they would become an option.
 
But you do get constructive critiscism at unaffliated level. And if you chose the correct venues to go to then the surfaces will be fine, as most affliated venues also run unaffliated.
 
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but why not do unaffliated? thats what its for - encouraging riders in dressage and for preparing them for affliated level competitions.


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But is that what it is for?

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Well thats what i have been under the impression it is for - otherwise why have it? Surely its to introduce riders to the competition environment and to encourage them to improve enough to want to affliate?
 
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but why not do unaffliated? thats what its for - encouraging riders in dressage and for preparing them for affliated level competitions.


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But is that what it is for?

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Most of the unaff dressage around me you see the same riders year in year out, who never affiliate.
I have to say I personally feel that BD want to make money out of this, W/T tests are becoming more popular but have not been standardised up to now. My cynical side just thinks this is a money making exercise.
But if it encourages people to use the scales of training right from early on (and I realise they should be doing this anyway but... ) I can't really see the harm. The aff competitions around me are much better run than the unaff so I can see why people would want to go and do W/T affl. I think I will sit on the fence for this one.
 
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perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a tes in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.

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I think this is a really fantastic idea. I would love to do a session like that. I find my marks sheet very useful in general, but it would be so useful to have the opportunity to discuss specifics with an experienced judge afterwards, especially if there was another opportunity to put the comments into practice again that same day.

*plots to discuss similar idea with YO*
 
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perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a tes in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.

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I think this is a really fantastic idea. I would love to do a session like that. I find my marks sheet very useful in general, but it would be so useful to have the opportunity to discuss specifics with an experienced judge afterwards, especially if there was another opportunity to put the comments into practice again that same day.

*plots to discuss similar idea with YO*

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Maybe I will see if I can organise something like that then if it would be popular. Doesn't have to be BD affiliated, just using BD tests and BD judges...hmmm...food for thought!

See what happens when as an eventer you base yourself on a dressage yard - you lot are a corrupting influence now the season is over!
 
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But you do get constructive critiscism at unaffliated level. And if you chose the correct venues to go to then the surfaces will be fine, as most affliated venues also run unaffliated.

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That may be the case, but then why are there so many posts on here complaining about the judging at unaff competitions and telling the posters to go affiliated if they want consistent judging and good surfaces?
 
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Yes but you did walk and trot tests at unaffliated level - which is a good thing, we are talking about affliated competition here.

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Yes I know you're talking about affiliated level. I'm saying I think it is a good idea to have a proper standard test at affiliated level where you get consistent judges giving consistent marks. If these were designed to be a national scale of training like the German system we may improve the standard of instruction and hopefully encourage all riders to improve their standard of riding. Its not just about competing or qualifying for national competitions.
 
At the risk of going baaaa, I completly agree with you and also the comment CSYMolly made about the amount of entries.

I see people out competing who always get low scores and do sometimes wonder why they bother. Now I know some people just like competing and dont really care if they come last but why not make the effort to improve.
I like to go out knowing that im in with a chance of doing well.

Prelim tests arent rocket science and a nicely ridden test is within everyones capablilities really, even if its not a winning test. I think introducing walk and trot tests will seriously dumb down BD. I can understand why BD want to do this, they want to get their numbers up. But I do think it will make the warm ups more dangerous, and I know ppl wont agree with this but most unaffiliated warm ups are lethal and to bring those riders together with people who are riding more advanced movements is asking for trouble IMO. It will also make advanced classes later and later or they will be cancelled altogether as there are always more entries for the lower levels and not enough time to run them all.
 
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But you do get constructive critiscism at unaffliated level. And if you chose the correct venues to go to then the surfaces will be fine, as most affliated venues also run unaffliated.

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I dont do dressage, i have in the past but it just doesnt interest me. So, im looking at this mostly through a SJers eyes.

To be honest i think your comment is VERY closed - that might be YOUR experience with unaff, but it probably isn't everyones. I have ridden at both affiliated and unaff, and i think alot of it is to do with personal experience. It's not always about choosing the right venue.

From a BSJA point of view it IS about the course building, the surfaces and time keeping etc. I can totally understand someone doing a walk and trott test at BD because they want the perks of what their membership pays for....and why the hell not?

If they didn't introduce this test, do you think it would eradicate all those numpties that cause problems and cannot ride? Of course not. These riders are like paying tax, they are a fact of life and you will encounter them whatever the level and where ever you are.

Ive seen riders jump at a pretty decent level that IMO shouldn't even be on the horse, but there is not alot you can do about that, but grit your teeth.

In the end, competition is open to everyone.
 
that's cos there assessed
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where as us adult aint
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Thoses training are very expensive compared to your local good BSHI instructor, me think think it's a case of afflilated folk trying to get more, more and more dosh! and IMO dumbing down.

As for BE i don't think flags would work at lower levels, who would enforce it!! nightmare - getting riding right before they are allowed out at that level surely that would be better?

I think you should have either have training day or competing day. And not mixing and matching at afflilated level. As i know i defo ride differently on competetion day and so do both my horses, the show off button is firm flicked on.
 
I think the standards of riding reflect the standards of teaching.
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I was never taught about the scales of training, it was only because I want to improve my riding and my horse so much, that I tried to read as much as possible.

My horse struggles with canter, especially when out. But I'm not going to pay £10 to enter a walk and trot class! I just try my hardest at prelim. All unaffilliated of course!
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