Tempi
Well-Known Member
God knows, as i find the unaffliated in my area really good. I think it does depend on your area.
Scales of Training/Walk & Trot Tests
- Thread starter Tempi
- Start date
Law
Well-Known Member
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... The judging is dodgy and the surfaces often well lets just say risky. ..
If I'm paying my money I want constructive critisism and a safe environment. By experience affiliated gives me the best chance of that.
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I'd echo this point a little. There is literally one venue to compete at here and it is entirely hit and miss as to whether the BD judge judges the unaffiliated classes or not, leaning heavily towards the not! The surface is fine and the warm up is ok too but the one of the main reasons I went and did a class on a ticket was for the opportunity to get judged 'properly'* and take away all I could from the comments on my sheet. *One would hope 'properly'!
(On a ticket as, for my sins, I did a Novice test!
My trainer teaches using the scales of training and didn't object to me trying a Novice... with hindsight I will be doing more prelim and hold off on the novice for a few months yet!)
Unaffiliated comps can give you some very varied and interesting judging so I would hope that by doing Prelim and paying the little extra to do it affiliated (not registered BD) , I would get more consistent judging from people who are vastly more experienced than some people who judge unaffiliated here.
... The judging is dodgy and the surfaces often well lets just say risky. ..
If I'm paying my money I want constructive critisism and a safe environment. By experience affiliated gives me the best chance of that.
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I'd echo this point a little. There is literally one venue to compete at here and it is entirely hit and miss as to whether the BD judge judges the unaffiliated classes or not, leaning heavily towards the not! The surface is fine and the warm up is ok too but the one of the main reasons I went and did a class on a ticket was for the opportunity to get judged 'properly'* and take away all I could from the comments on my sheet. *One would hope 'properly'!
Unaffiliated comps can give you some very varied and interesting judging so I would hope that by doing Prelim and paying the little extra to do it affiliated (not registered BD) , I would get more consistent judging from people who are vastly more experienced than some people who judge unaffiliated here.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
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perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a test in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.
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I think this is a really good idea aswell - training days are a fantastic way of giving people a good knowledge of what they need to be doing. Ive done tests where you complete it, talk to the judge afterwards who gives you pointers, then you ride the test again taking on board the judges comments. These were great when i was first starting to do unaffliated on Bloss as they really helped me understand what the judges are looking for.
If more people went to events such as the Nationals and watched the top riders then maybe it would inspire them to strive to achieve what is a more consistant way of going. Even watching the prelim class at the Nationals will teach people a lot.
perhaps W&T and Prelim should centre around training days - perhaps ride a test in the morning (marked), then have a session on warm-up ettiquette etc, and a discussion of your marks/way of riding/scales of training in small groups with a BD judge, then do the test again in the afternoon. That way people would have a benchmark about whether they are ready to affiliate or not.
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I think this is a really good idea aswell - training days are a fantastic way of giving people a good knowledge of what they need to be doing. Ive done tests where you complete it, talk to the judge afterwards who gives you pointers, then you ride the test again taking on board the judges comments. These were great when i was first starting to do unaffliated on Bloss as they really helped me understand what the judges are looking for.
If more people went to events such as the Nationals and watched the top riders then maybe it would inspire them to strive to achieve what is a more consistant way of going. Even watching the prelim class at the Nationals will teach people a lot.
_jetset_
Well-Known Member
I think that is a fair comment anakin... My friend went to an unaffil prelim competition and she didn't feel ready but she did it. Her horses started freaking in one of the canters, so the next time she missed the canter out and just continued in trot. Obviously she did not get a mark for this, but it was all for the experience.
As I have said, I think walk and trot tests are good for an introduction to dressage unaffiliated, but British Dressage is not about an introdution, that is what unaffiliated are for in my opinion. Hannah did unaffil for 2 years up to Elementary, mainly because it worked out well with the costs of the entries (and not having to pay just over £100 a year) and it gave both of us the experience I needed to affiliate.
As I have said, I think walk and trot tests are good for an introduction to dressage unaffiliated, but British Dressage is not about an introdution, that is what unaffiliated are for in my opinion. Hannah did unaffil for 2 years up to Elementary, mainly because it worked out well with the costs of the entries (and not having to pay just over £100 a year) and it gave both of us the experience I needed to affiliate.
Ferdinase514
Well-Known Member
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My horse struggles with canter, especially when out. But I'm not going to pay £10 to enter a walk and trot class!
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£10? You'd be lucky. BD entry fees vary from £10 - £18 per class round here.
My horse struggles with canter, especially when out. But I'm not going to pay £10 to enter a walk and trot class!
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£10? You'd be lucky. BD entry fees vary from £10 - £18 per class round here.
kerilli
Well-Known Member
i agree about expecting riders to be able to ride to a certain level before allowing them to compete. some of the sights i've seen at the lower levels of eventing are shocking, not to mention downright dangerous. ignorance truly is bliss, i guess, albeit not for the horses. the riders must have no imaginations either, i think... i wouldn't dare ride an untrained horse like a total muppet over fixed fences, even if they are only 3 foot high!
re: walk and trot only tests - well, i mooted this idea about 9 years ago to a friend, as a suggestion at riding club level, especially for very green riders and/or horses. it would mean that a test could be completed calmly and nicely (hopefully) with no adrenalin in the canter to upset everything. at that level, i think it's a great idea, but tbh not at affiliated... i believe that one should attain a certain level of competency before aspiring to ride at affiliated level.
i never even dreamt of riding at Affiliated Dressage when i started eventing, since i assumed i wasn't good enough. it wasn't until i went with a friend and saw that a lot of these Affiliated Dressage Riders on Dressage Horses weren't going any better than me and my horse, that i took the plunge!
re: walk and trot only tests - well, i mooted this idea about 9 years ago to a friend, as a suggestion at riding club level, especially for very green riders and/or horses. it would mean that a test could be completed calmly and nicely (hopefully) with no adrenalin in the canter to upset everything. at that level, i think it's a great idea, but tbh not at affiliated... i believe that one should attain a certain level of competency before aspiring to ride at affiliated level.
i never even dreamt of riding at Affiliated Dressage when i started eventing, since i assumed i wasn't good enough. it wasn't until i went with a friend and saw that a lot of these Affiliated Dressage Riders on Dressage Horses weren't going any better than me and my horse, that i took the plunge!
Tempi
Well-Known Member
On a different note - why do you have to pay more the higher the level you compete? Its £18/19 to do a medium round here, yet only £14/15 to do a novice, and £16/17 for an elementary
NewHeights_SJ
Well-Known Member
P_G - Its the same at bsja, usually because the higher the class the more prize money there is.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Ahhhh brain not in gear, so hadnt thought about prize money in relation to entry fees - that makes sense!
not_with_it
Well-Known Member
Surely most people work towards affiliating their horse, its a goal for them, something for them to work towards. By introducing W&T tests you are taking away part of this goal.
Alibear
Well-Known Member
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On a different note - why do you have to pay more the higher the level you compete? Its £18/19 to do a medium round here, yet only £14/15 to do a novice, and £16/17 for an elementary
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Also because the higher tests require higher levels judges and take longer per riders so you can't get as many competitiors/entry fees in.
On a different note - why do you have to pay more the higher the level you compete? Its £18/19 to do a medium round here, yet only £14/15 to do a novice, and £16/17 for an elementary
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Also because the higher tests require higher levels judges and take longer per riders so you can't get as many competitiors/entry fees in.
StaceyTanglewood
Well-Known Member
but you dont really win that much at lower level dressage do you - I know for BSJA yoiu can win £30 for a BN !!
Imonone
Well-Known Member
Im afraid Im with FMC here, some of the comments are rather pretentious and made me rather cross.
Grass roots riders prop us the dressage system in this country and I think that most professional riders appreciate this. Particularly as the majority make money teaching these riders.
I think that in reality if venues run an affiliated W&T there will be very limited numbers as there are in affiliated prelim and centres wont run too many.
However we run W&T unaffiliated tests now and I must say that I would welcome an official BD W&T which will be more in line with the scales of training than some of the ones used at present.
I dont think that affiliated W&T will make too much of an impact on the BD scene.
I think that the introduction of the walk and trot tests and the understanding of the scales of training are two different issues. If BD continues to expand as it has done over the last few years I hope that some more investment can be made in training more judges and in providing wider forums and training, so that the scales of training and the attached principles can be disseminated more widely and be better understood as they are on the continent.
Grass roots riders prop us the dressage system in this country and I think that most professional riders appreciate this. Particularly as the majority make money teaching these riders.
I think that in reality if venues run an affiliated W&T there will be very limited numbers as there are in affiliated prelim and centres wont run too many.
However we run W&T unaffiliated tests now and I must say that I would welcome an official BD W&T which will be more in line with the scales of training than some of the ones used at present.
I dont think that affiliated W&T will make too much of an impact on the BD scene.
I think that the introduction of the walk and trot tests and the understanding of the scales of training are two different issues. If BD continues to expand as it has done over the last few years I hope that some more investment can be made in training more judges and in providing wider forums and training, so that the scales of training and the attached principles can be disseminated more widely and be better understood as they are on the continent.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Yes, but that is what unaffliated is for
So you think that the system in place on the continent is a waste of time then?
Why do Germany and Holand do so well at dressage????????? Noone looks at the bigger picture here
So you think that the system in place on the continent is a waste of time then?
Why do Germany and Holand do so well at dressage????????? Noone looks at the bigger picture here
Imonone
Well-Known Member
AS I just said the scales are better understood on the continent - I didnt rubbish them did I? Not sure what ur point is.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
NO, not the scales of training - on the contient riders have to do 'exams' on unknown horses before they are allowed to affliate - thats why there standard is so high over there and thats why riders over here are behind compared to on the continent.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
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but you dont really win that much at lower level dressage do you - I know for BSJA yoiu can win £30 for a BN !!
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Exactly - i got £12 on the weekend for winning my novice class overall, yet my entry fee was £14......
(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
but you dont really win that much at lower level dressage do you - I know for BSJA yoiu can win £30 for a BN !!
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Exactly - i got £12 on the weekend for winning my novice class overall, yet my entry fee was £14......
(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
Little_Mare
Well-Known Member
TBH I can't really see BD beginning to incorporate walk and trot tests since we haven't heard any mutterings (or have I missed them???) and I can imagine a number of those "high-up" being very against it. I think maybe they have published Introductory A as an attempt at standardisation.
If they do formally begin Introductory they'll have to address all the rules - who'll be eligible???
Also it seems madness that something should precede preliminary which itself implies "before"!
If they do formally begin Introductory they'll have to address all the rules - who'll be eligible???
Also it seems madness that something should precede preliminary which itself implies "before"!
Ferdinase514
Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to people, that you will prob be able to enter a BD W&T test without affiliating, in the same way as a prelim?
Therefore, competitors will be able to gain experience of a BD show before affiliating. Half of the fear of affiliating comes from the "everyone will be better than me" feeling or "everyone will think i am cr@p". (which reading this thread will prob be confirmed as likely, for those people!)
Therefore, competitors will be able to gain experience of a BD show before affiliating. Half of the fear of affiliating comes from the "everyone will be better than me" feeling or "everyone will think i am cr@p". (which reading this thread will prob be confirmed as likely, for those people!)
kerilli
Well-Known Member
P_G, someone once told me that the average German housewife-type rider (i.e. one lesson a week at a riding school, kind of thing) actually has a better seat and rides better than a lot of professional riders over here... *pours petrol on fire, runs away*
Ferdinase514
Well-Known Member
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(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
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No!! We Bloody should be complaining!
(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
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No!! We Bloody should be complaining!
Tempi
Well-Known Member
oooooo interesting comment! But then the standard over there is so much higher im inclined to believe it is probably true!
Imonone
Well-Known Member
Im getting more confused by the minute, what does this have to do with BD designing a walk and trot test which will be predominately used at unaffiliated level.
I think that your issue seems to be more about how riders are graded in this country.
I think that your issue seems to be more about how riders are graded in this country.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
ah yes - but there was a time when people would make sure that they were totally confident and getting good marks at unafflaited before starting to affliate. Now the standard is getting lower and lower at affliated, when at one time it was on the up at the lower levels.
Tempi
Well-Known Member
Er, actually if you read my OP im talking about the scales of training aswell (not just walk and trot tests), and how there was a rider on the weekend who had no idea what they were, but was competing at affliated. What i am saying is that on the continent you wouldnt get this problem as the riders are all 'tested' before they can affliate!
Ferdinase514
Well-Known Member
Interesting, but what makes you think the standard is declining?
Tempi
Well-Known Member
From talking various judges whilst i have been out competing, and from watching people whilst i have been out it seems that the general opinion is that it is declining at the lower levels, but improving at the higher ones.
StaceyTanglewood
Well-Known Member
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but you dont really win that much at lower level dressage do you - I know for BSJA yoiu can win £30 for a BN !!
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Exactly - i got £12 on the weekend for winning my novice class overall, yet my entry fee was £14......
(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
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I think that is awful you should atleast be winning your entry fee back ???
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but you dont really win that much at lower level dressage do you - I know for BSJA yoiu can win £30 for a BN !!
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly - i got £12 on the weekend for winning my novice class overall, yet my entry fee was £14......
(not complaining before anyone jumps on me, just saying!!)
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I think that is awful you should atleast be winning your entry fee back ???
Imonone
Well-Known Member
This may be more to do with the dearth of judges and the standard of judging at unaffiliated, as a judge and an organiser it is becoming rather problematical.
BDs answer seems to be to try to price small centres out of existance by introducing the minimum levy for show centres.
Saying that judge training is currently under the microscope and I am hoping that something useful will come out of it which will allow for more trained judges and better direction for those riding at unaffiliated level.
How many times have we seen on this forum advice that going affiliated will result in better judging!!
BDs answer seems to be to try to price small centres out of existance by introducing the minimum levy for show centres.
Saying that judge training is currently under the microscope and I am hoping that something useful will come out of it which will allow for more trained judges and better direction for those riding at unaffiliated level.
How many times have we seen on this forum advice that going affiliated will result in better judging!!
Tempi
Well-Known Member
I agree with this - better judging is definately needed at unaffliated level. This should be something BD are working on too, as altho its unaffliated, its the unaffliated riders who eventually make the affliated ones.