Scary Judgement re Buyer Beware

[Ambers Echo]

I will caveat this by saying I do not know either party ivolved. And as a FB coment notes there are 3 sides to every story: yours, theirs and the truth!

But it appears to be verfied that:

Dealer A sold a horse to dealer B in a Trade to Trade sale.
Horse arrives with a broken shoulder, confirmed on Xray to be an old injury (calcified)
Horse was PTS and dealer B took dealer A to court.

Judge ruled that the buyer had failed to show due dligence by not viewing, vetting or collecting the horse. Therefore claim rejected.

Dealer A is claiming all over SM that she 'won' and the horse was sound on leaving her care, and only inured in transit - which is not what the ruling was. But is does seem a victory for seriously dodgy dealing.

Thoughts?

 

[Ambers Echo]

I will also add that the dealer acquaintances I have buy horses off other dealers all the time, they don't view vet or collect. One gets a lorry load from a contact he has in Ireland once a year or so. Some turn out to have issues and are unsuitable for re-sale. Most are fine. All are as described! Some he even keeps for himself as they turn out cracking.

 

[shortstuff99]

I belive trade to trade has no where near the protection of trade to consumer (us) if that makes sense?

 

[Peglo]

Sorry if you don’t have additional info but presumably the horse was lame when arrived with dealer B hence getting X-rays? And did they see videos of a sound horse at dealer A’s yard before purchase?

Either way it seems a bit scary that dealer A has gotten away with it if there was proof of an old injury. Does that mean no one would be able to claim being mis-sold a broken horse if every check wasn’t done? I thought you could return a horse that was not fit for purpose or does that all change between dealers?

ETS I see short stuff has answered last question I asked

 

[ester]

photos of horse on arrival showed it was pretty obviously broken.

A lot of discussion misses the fact it was trade to trade

 

[HopOnTrot]

B2B is totally different, you don't have the same rights to reject/return as B2C.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

Judge ruled that the buyer had failed to show due dligence by not viewing, vetting or collecting the horse. Therefore claim rejected.

Which is not wrong. I don't disagree with this.

There's a certain threshold for due diligence. You (I mean the dealer in this case) take a risk by not viewing, getting, or collecting the horse. If that risk doesn't pan out, a lot of that is on you. Should the seller/other dealer be forthcoming? Absolutely, but there are two sides to a purchase.

 

[DressageCob]

I assume the claim wasn't pleaded well. Based on what they have described I don't see why a claim in misrepresentation would fail. That doesn't need to be trade to trade. If the horse was described as sound (and the messages I saw said it was perfect in every way) and it wasn't, and the buyer relied on the statement that it was sound then it doesn't matter that theoretically he could have organised a vetting.
you don't get the same protections trader to trader, so things like the Consumer Rights Act or Distance Selling Regs don't apply, but misrepresentation should.

it's wrong for the seller to be claiming she was found to be in the right. it sounds like the claim was dismissed or struck out for lack of legal prospects, rather than her evidence being preferred.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

I don't have much hope about that it will actually happen, but it would feel as if there was at least a little bit of fairness if this leads to that other traders refuse to trade with her due to this.

 

[maya2008]

Legally, I presume the correct action would have been to return the horse for a refund. Buyer accepted delivery, pts horse (which is of course the humane option here). In effect they accepted the ‘goods’.

 

[Ambers Echo]

I assume the claim wasn't pleaded well. Based on what they have described I don't see why a claim in misrepresentation would fail. That doesn't need to be trade to trade. If the horse was described as sound (and the messages I saw said it was perfect in every way) and it wasn't, and the buyer relied on the statement that it was sound then it doesn't matter that theoretically he could have organised a vetting.
you don't get the same protections trader to trader, so things like the Consumer Rights Act or Distance Selling Regs don't apply, but misrepresentation should.

it's wrong for the seller to be claiming she was found to be in the right. it sounds like the claim was dismissed or struck out for lack of legal prospects, rather than her evidence being preferred.

It strikes me as deeply unfair. Imagine the extra costs if buyers in trade to trade transactions had to visually inspect everything they buy. Rather than rely on how the item is described and trust that the seller is not being utterly dishonest. The horse had a broken shoulder and was described as perfect in every way. That is not marginal or open to interpretation - the horse was misrepresented.

And yes it was dismissed. She did not 'win' - the case wasn't heard.

I hope she appeals and wins because I think this sets a terrible precedent and would embolden shady dealers yet further.

 

[SEL]

I saw this case on SM too.

Apparently the judge said the buyer didn't do sufficient due diligence.

This is what the buyer said on FB

The case was thrown out of court because I had the right to Inspect pre-purchase, To vet and To personally collect the horse which I didn’t.
Therefore due to trade on trade act Buyer Beware Act, the fault and the liability fell on me (the buyer). Regardless of the faulty item I received.

 

[shortstuff99]

What page is this on so I can have a gander as I haven't seen it?

 

[Cortez]

Caveat emptor applies here I think. Dealer A has just lost any shred of goodwill and reputation; dealer B is a chump (but is still in the right, IMO).

 

[Rowreach]

As a ruling it could severely impact trade to trade dealing, because no dealer is going to vet every horse they buy from another dealer. Or they will, and the cost will be passed on to the end buyer.

 

[SEL]

What page is this on so I can have a gander as I haven't seen it?

Dodgy Horse Dealers UK

Need to scroll down a few posts to find the response from the buyer. There was a 'I won my case' post floating around but I'm not sure its still up

 

[onemoretime]

Very unfortunate and sad case both for buyer and the poor horse. Sold on behalf of is another very grey area and people need to be very careful.

 

[hock]

Yep it’s still online!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

I don't actually think it is a scary judgement for the average horse buyer. But it could impact on dealers passing on horses that they cannot sell for whatever reason to other dealers, which is likely to have a knock on effect on horse welfare in rhe long run. I very much doubt that professional competition riders, who could be affected by the judgement, will buy decent horses without at least viewing them themselves. Bin end dealers, who pass horses round like pieces of furniture, I have very little sympathy with.

 

[Mrs. Jingle]

Bin end dealers, who pass horses round like pieces of furniture, I have very little sympathy with.

I agree wholeheartedly. See it over and over again, one horse literally getting through half a dozen dealers and various duped private buyers in as little as 18 months. Until it is fortunate enough to arrive at a home that will do the right thing for the poor horse and PTS as should usually have been done before it was even sold to dealer number one in the first place. I have to add I have no sympathy for those owners that flog their old or broken down horses to anyone just to get a couple of euros and get rid, which is very often how they get into the dealer chain in the first place.

 

[angel7]

When you see the rubbish being sold its just a sign of the times I'm afraid, look at this lot:
Copied from DD as link wont work

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught Mare​

• 
• 

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught, 12 years young. Savanna is a school master, she speaks for her self. She has competed/hunted, etc... Been there done it all type and she great breeding.

She's the ultimate confidence giver and anybodys ride from a child to older (80 years of age ride) Any trails to come and ride her more than welcome.

Anymore information please call or text. Transport, plenty more pics and vids also available.

Price: £2,000 ono - Sold

Sold by Dragon Driving.

Then this crippled gem:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 1,053 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

This one as bad:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 1,053 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

Due diligence required indeed.

 

[lynz88]

When you see the rubbish being sold its just a sign of the times I'm afraid, look at this lot:
Copied from DD as link wont work

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught Mare​

• 
• 

Savanna, 16.2hh Irish Draught, 12 years young. Savanna is a school master, she speaks for her self. She has competed/hunted, etc... Been there done it all type and she great breeding.

She's the ultimate confidence giver and anybodys ride from a child to older (80 years of age ride) Any trails to come and ride her more than welcome.

Anymore information please call or text. Transport, plenty more pics and vids also available.

Price: £2,000 ono - Sold


Then this crippled gem:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 1,053 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

This one as bad:

Horses Ads For Sale in Ireland | DoneDeal

Discover 1,053 Ads in Horses For Sale in Ireland on DoneDeal. Buy & Sell on Ireland's Largest Horses Marketplace.

www.donedeal.ie

Due diligence required indeed.

yyyiikkkeeesssss

 

[Errin Paddywack]

Bet Savanna is ever so comfy to ride poor girl. My old mare has dropped pasterns behind though nowhere near as bad as that. No way we would ride her.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Jeez the front legs on that second one no wonder his placid

 

[ycbm]

I can't believe this is the right judgement. Businesses buy from wholesalers, producers and manufacturers all the time without inspecting the goods first and surely they have a right to expect that the goods will arrive as described?
.

 

[blitznbobs]

When a sale happens and the buyer is trade the buyer is deemed an’expert’ and therefore should have known that the goods were not in good condition… if a lay person sells to a trade buyer in any sphere then there is very little come back at all

 

[blitznbobs]

I can't believe this is the right judgement. Businesses buy from wholesalers, producers and manufacturers all the time without inspecting the goods first and surely they have a right to expect that the goods will arrive as described?
.

The difference is a horse is by its very nature, used and second hand

 

[ycbm]

The difference is a horse is by its very nature, used and second hand

I don't see, morally, that makes the slightest difference to having the right to goods that are "as described".
.

 

[CanteringCarrot]

I don't see, morally, that makes the slightest difference to having the right to goods that are "as described".
.

Morally, no, but legally, yes.

 

[ycbm]

So does a shop that buys a crate of bananas unseen and they are delivered black instead of green or yellow, does the shop have no legal right to a replacement? That sounds completely wrong to me.
.