Schooling help

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Dyllymoo

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So J really doesn't enjoying being in the school. He is super green and lacks balance so I think that's most of the problem but also probably as he hasnt really done much in there.

Hacking he is more forward but still quite behind the leg.

I'm hacking 3 or 4 times a week for 45 mins. Mostly in walk with some trot but the wet ground is stopping anything else.

I took him in the school after a hack (he was on his toes today) and as soon as his hooves hit the surface he shut down.

I've tried poles and he just doesn't feel any different.

I had an instructor and she said he looks like a newly backed 3 year old in the school. Even in my viewing he was really green but a bit more forward then he is now.

He has had teeth, back, feet done. We have a bareback pad but I'm waiting for a new saddle to arrive (2 weeks time hopefully).

Any suggestions? I want him happy and to enjoy it but I need him forward as well and it's really hard when he shuts down.

The home before me was 2 young girls (7 and 10 years) and they did pony club camp etc with him but part exed him back to the dealer for a faster jumping pony ( :( )

I wondered if he was just a bit sour possibly.
 
I would forget about working in the school for a few weeks, if not months. Take him hacking and after a while just take him into the school at the end of a hack and walk round once and back out. If you then take him into the school and walk round once and then go on a hack, he might start to associate the school with going on a hack.
As you say he sounds as if he is school sour.
 
If he likes jumping you could pop him over a few in the school after a hack. I think it would be good to try to associate the school with fun things. Like pearl said I'd keep any work in there short and sweet. You could also start giving him his feed in the school. It's not the same as working him there but I think it might work.
 
The constant turns may mean he feels uneven weight through the bareback pad, they don't suit all horses.
My exceptionally well behave share would object to being ridden bareback, even hoping on to ride in from the field was met with ears back and unhappiness, she was string and supple through her back and had a physio every 6 months who never found any issues, I do have a boney bum and she was telling me it was not comfy on her without a saddle.
 
twiggy2 said:
The constant turns may mean he feels uneven weight through the bareback pad, they don't suit all horses.
My exceptionally well behave share would object to being ridden bareback, even hoping on to ride in from the field was met with ears back and unhappiness, she was string and supple through her back and had a physio every 6 months who never found any issues, I do have a boney bum and she was telling me it was not comfy on her without a saddle.
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I'm not sure as our school is 25 x 60 and I don't think I have done anything smaller than a 25m circle on him, he is absolutely fine out hacking, even when we are going through twisty bits and is immediately more forward then in the school. Literally as soon as his hooves hit the school he almost goes backwards.
 
EllenJay said:
When you are hacking, rather than just walk along, do some schooling. You don’t have to use a school to do schooling, and then when he is more balanced and understands what you are asking he will be happier on a surface.
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I do try and do this but he genuinely doesn't understand anything really, didn't quite realise how green he was if I'm honest. I've been reading books and looking at videos but he is just not sure what my legs mean.
 
mule said:
If he likes jumping you could pop him over a few in the school after a hack. I think it would be good to try to associate the school with fun things. Like pearl said I'd keep any work in there short and sweet. You could also start giving him his feed in the school. It's not the same as working him there but I think it might work.
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I think they did a fair bit of jumping with him, but due to his age and balance and fitness he didn't do quite what they wanted. unfortunately our hacking is just open fields really so nothing to jump :(

I wont be allowed to feed him in the school unfortunately
 
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Pearlsasinger said:
I would forget about working in the school for a few weeks, if not months. Take him hacking and after a while just take him into the school at the end of a hack and walk round once and back out. If you then take him into the school and walk round once and then go on a hack, he might start to associate the school with going on a hack.
As you say he sounds as if he is school sour.
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I have pretty much done that, but think I will continue. Poor boy. I only took him in there yesterday as he was so sweaty after the hack I walked him around under saddle once each way. It was such hard work. In the end I got off, untacked him and walked him around in hand and we played a few games whilst we were in there just to keep him occupied which he seemed to enjoy. We have been in that school twice in 2 months and he genuinely doesn't enjoy it (and when I say in there I mean the first time was walk and a few trots large and the second time was 20 minutes in walk working on a few exercises like serpentines). Fingers crossed a few months out of the school will do him the world of good, plus my new saddle will help as well :)
 
Dyllymoo said:
I do try and do this but he genuinely doesn't understand anything really, didn't quite realise how green he was if I'm honest. I've been reading books and looking at videos but he is just not sure what my legs mean.
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He will learn what you mean better in a context than in a bare school. Use your aids to encourage him to follow the paths that you are on, he will see the path and link your aids to what he is doing.
 
I agree that some horses find schoolwork hard and you need to check your tack and all that stuff definitely applies.
But don't underestimate how much a green horse just *doesn't know*. And sometimes that makes it feel very difficult as a rider especially if you are used to something that knows its job already.

My latest project probably hadn't been in a school since he was backed, if he ever went in one (ex racehorse)
He found it very weird to firstly be asked to go somewhere on his own, as he will have always done his work with others before, and secondly to have to go in a small enclosed area. He didn't see the point of it, didn't understand that "going large" was a thing, he had to learn to walk near the track, and how to go round corners, or how to do a circle. They don't come with that stuff pre installed. just because he's been off and done a bit of PC doesn't mean that he really understands what he is supposed to be doing.

If he's behind your leg on a hack then he will be behind your leg in the school, probably more so because he doesn't understand what he has to do in there so there aren't any surprises there ;)

I think if you aren't used to bringing on green horses then the best thing you can do is to find someone who is experienced and get them to help you regularly :) there's no substitute for eyes on the ground to help you.
 
Pearlsasinger said:
He will learn what you mean better in a context than in a bare school. Use your aids to encourage him to follow the paths that you are on, he will see the path and link your aids to what he is doing.
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He just doesn't go forward or anything though. I'm hoping the saddle change will help (get me off his back a bit) and then we will see if we can do some bits. I genuinely think I have bitten off more than I can chew :(
 
Dyllymoo said:
I do try and do this but he genuinely doesn't understand anything really, didn't quite realise how green he was if I'm honest. I've been reading books and looking at videos but he is just not sure what my legs mean.
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He is probably completely clueless, if ridden by equally clueless young children he has possibly just been ragged about in the school, raced over a few jumps and has learned that the school is a bad place because he has become shut down due to their inability to train him, not really the fault of the children if they knew no better it was lucky he is a kind boy and shut down rather than went the other way.

MP has just saved me typing the rest of my thoughts, he needs to go back to basics and learn life can be fun even in the school, a really good trainer will be the key to help you both move forward, literally.
 
milliepops said:
I agree that some horses find schoolwork hard and you need to check your tack and all that stuff definitely applies.
But don't underestimate how much a green horse just *doesn't know*. And sometimes that makes it feel very difficult as a rider especially if you are used to something that knows its job already.

My latest project probably hadn't been in a school since he was backed, if he ever went in one (ex racehorse)
He found it very weird to firstly be asked to go somewhere on his own, as he will have always done his work with others before, and secondly to have to go in a small enclosed area. He didn't see the point of it, didn't understand that "going large" was a thing, he had to learn to walk near the track, and how to go round corners, or how to do a circle. They don't come with that stuff pre installed. just because he's been off and done a bit of PC doesn't mean that he really understands what he is supposed to be doing.

If he's behind your leg on a hack then he will be behind your leg in the school, probably more so because he doesn't understand what he has to do in there so there aren't any surprises there ;)

I think if you aren't used to bringing on green horses then the best thing you can do is to find someone who is experienced and get them to help you regularly :) there's no substitute for eyes on the ground to help you.
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Thank you. I completely get that he doesn't really understand it, you can genuinely see his heart sink when he goes in there which is really sad to witness. I've never had such a green horse, and I'm struggling to find an instructor that I trust and will come out to me. A lot aren't interested in little cobs or want to push too fast. Plus I don't want him getting sour because he doesn't understand or cant do what is being asked.
 
Maybe think outside the box a bit. If normal instructors are not suitable, then perhaps you need someone who works a bit differently.

When I first got Kira she was really shut down, on hacks and in the school, and I had some help from a local lady who had her own kind of natural horsemanship - she does all kinds of training with horses, from loading, to hacking out alone, to clipping and everything in between, she is just a really good horsewoman - not in terms of competition riding or formal training, but in reading horses and understanding what is going on inside their heads. I didn't have the time to do all the work myself as I had 3 horses in work and a full time job so she did some for me. Someone like that would be ideal, I would think.
 
milliepops said:
Maybe think outside the box a bit. If normal instructors are not suitable, then perhaps you need someone who works a bit differently.

When I first got Kira she was really shut down, on hacks and in the school, and I had some help from a local lady who had her own kind of natural horsemanship - she does all kinds of training with horses, from loading, to hacking out alone, to clipping and everything in between, she is just a really good horsewoman - not in terms of competition riding or formal training, but in reading horses and understanding what is going on inside their heads. I didn't have the time to do all the work myself as I had 3 horses in work and a full time job so she did some for me. Someone like that would be ideal, I would think.
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That's interesting, I haven't thought of someone like that. I was going down the normal dressage/ eventing trainers routes. I know of one of those that I will definitely have lessons from but not now does that make sense?

I will do some research and see if I can get someone out for us. Thank you :)
 
Have you tried lunging or long reining, possibly some loose schooling if allowed, it can help to be off their backs, take that pressure away and do what may have been missed out previously, whenever I get a project sent here for schooling I always start with some basic groundwork to help get them settled/ instill the stop, go aids, to assess how they move, react, how supple they are etc before commencing with appropriate work, the groundwork helps me decide the best way forward as they are all so different, getting inside their heads is usually the best place to start with any horse.
 
I just think perhaps he needs someone who can understand him a bit, and also not put YOU under any pressure either because then you will just feel more hopeless. They only learn how to go in the school, by going in the school, if that makes sense - so you do need to do some work in there if you want that to be something you can do in the future, as many of us do. So it's going to be a case of finding the right way to help him learn that is important :)

In the early stages I think it doesn't really matter who does the teaching, so long as the end result is a happy horse and rider who understand what they need to do. So if the "standard" instructors you know of aren't right for you at the moment then definitely think about other experienced people who would have the skills you need.

ETA groundwork is definitely a good idea and perhaps that would be good as your first lesson, OP, because he may not know how to do that either ;)
 
be positive said:
Have you tried lunging or long reining, possibly some loose schooling if allowed, it can help to be off their backs, take that pressure away and do what may have been missed out previously, whenever I get a project sent here for schooling I always start with some basic groundwork to help get them settled/ instill the stop, go aids, to assess how they move, react, how supple they are etc before commencing with appropriate work, the groundwork helps me decide the best way forward as they are all so different, getting inside their heads is usually the best place to start with any horse.
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I lunged him the first week and he was SOOOO forward but would just zoom around like he was worried. We have long reined out with my OH at his head, and he was ok, but I cant do this much as I don't always have someone to walk at his head (we had an unfortunate incident when I took him out in hand the first week I had him and he bolted across the fields and found himself in a neighbours garden, I haven't done it since as he was lucky he found his way home and wasn't involved in a car accident (its a 50mph country road near the yard). not allowed to loose school.

I did do around 3 weeks of ground work and he is super at it. We did some clicker training and long reining up and down the drive way.
 
I second the lunging. Get him going correctly on the lunge and reintroduce a rider from there with a zero tolerance for ignoring the forwards aids. Assuming this horse is sound and comfortable etc, it sounds as though he isn't working correctly and obedient to the aids and has not developed the muscles and fitness he needs to work effectively in the school. If you are not confident enough to do this then a good instructor will be able to assist.
 
Leandy said:
I second the lunging. Get him going correctly on the lunge and reintroduce a rider from there with a zero tolerance for ignoring the forwards aids. Assuming this horse is sound and comfortable etc, it sounds as though he isn't working correctly and obedient to the aids and has not developed the muscles and fitness he needs to work effectively in the school. If you are not confident enough to do this then a good instructor will be able to assist.
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Unfortunately I don't want to lunge him as I don't think its great for them (personal preference). Its not that I am not confident enough to push him through it, I am and have done to my mare in the past BUT I want to set him up for success not just force him to get on with things and then him resent it all. I'm in no rush, he is with me for life.
 
I think you will get there OP, with the right help. I wouldn't particularly view this as an obedience problem, from what you've said. it sounds like an understanding problem on the horse's behalf. They can't be obedient if they don't know what the aids mean.
 
milliepops said:
I think you will get there OP, with the right help. I wouldn't particularly view this as an obedience problem, from what you've said. it sounds like an understanding problem on the horse's behalf. They can't be obedient if they don't know what the aids mean.
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I think this is exactly it. He just doesn't know, which is probably easier to deal with then knows but wont/ cant. I've contacted a local (well respected and recommended) lady who does Natural Horsemanship so I will see if she can come out and do some sessions with us, probably on the ground first and then ridden eventually.

I had already decided winter was going to be us getting to grips with the basics and it turns out that is exactly what it will be :)
 
Dyllymoo said:
Unfortunately I don't want to lunge him as I don't think its great for them (personal preference). Its not that I am not confident enough to push him through it, I am and have done to my mare in the past BUT I want to set him up for success not just force him to get on with things and then him resent it all. I'm in no rush, he is with me for life.
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I wasn't suggesting forcing anything. Lunging can be valuable for training and has its place but each to their own. I was suggesting it may be helpful to try to get him going forward happily in the school without a rider and start to build up the necessary strength and balance to be able to do so. Then reintroduce a rider and start anew with a clear reintroduction to the aids as it doesn't sound as though he is obedient to them. That doesn't mean he is being "disobedient" per se, it probably means he doesn't fully understand and lacks training or has been confused by inconsistent and imprecise riders.
 
I also think lunging may be beneficial, if he can just walk around in a relaxed manner maybe over a few poles and learn walk, halt, transitions from your voice it could really help, there is no need to force anything as that will be counter productive but it is a very useful tool to have in the box, is essential if they need a vet work up, can be incorporated into long reining and enable the rider to see what is happening in a way they cannot when riding.

I would always ensure every horse through my yard can lunge even if it is done rarely and not really used as a schooling session it allows them to have a stretch without the rider on and is a useful form of exercise if done properly, setting them up for success means getting the basics in place and them understanding what is required at each stage before moving on.
 
be positive said:
I also think lunging may be beneficial, if he can just walk around in a relaxed manner maybe over a few poles and learn walk, halt, transitions from your voice it could really help, there is no need to force anything as that will be counter productive but it is a very useful tool to have in the box, is essential if they need a vet work up, can be incorporated into long reining and enable the rider to see what is happening in a way they cannot when riding.

I would always ensure every horse through my yard can lunge even if it is done rarely and not really used as a schooling session it allows them to have a stretch without the rider on and is a useful form of exercise if done properly, setting them up for success means getting the basics in place and them understanding what is required at each stage before moving on.
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He does walk around ok, its when he goes up in to trot its a bit wall of death, and then canter is definite wall of death. Its something I may introduce when he is a bit stronger and can bend a bit as bending doesn't happen and thus the wall of death! :)
 
cauda equina said:
What's the surface in the school like?
I've got one who hates any sort of deep going, including a local sand school
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Its a really good surface but I guess it is "deeper" than roadwork or field tracks so he could be struggling because of that.

scats said:
Where are you based OP? Perhaps someone here may know someone locally to you who might be able to help.
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I've actually managed to book someone for 14th December so hopefully that will help. From just a brief chat she mentioned a few things that I already think about him and his education so it was interesting to hear that. First session will be an intro on the ground session so we will see how we get on :)
 
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