Science versus Old Wives Tales?

[amandap]

All body systems are influenced by each other. If circulation is reduced everything slows down including peristalsis. Add to that only dry hay,dry feed and there is a recipe for constipation or impaction colic as it's called in horses.

Better just say that 'constipation' (dry matter impaction) isn't the only type of impaction colic.

 

[Dancing Queen]

I think the OP had perhaps been blinded by science! Well Done.

As a scientist myself I find these posts somewhat intriguing.

 

[firm]

I thought I had just read somewhere that it was proved increased movement in horses increased their gut movement? Maybe I imagined it Quite often I read things which prove old wives tales and think why did they bother trying to prove that as it seems common sense e.g I was always taught horses react to human fear and recently an experiment in Scandanavia showed horses' heart rates rising when their human handlers' were rising.

 

[Serenity087]

Wanting to throw in a spanner... as always...

My rabbits were recently operated on and as part of their recovery, I had to ensure they ate. Now, one of my rabbits stopped eating, which put her at risk of "Gut stasis".

So, I rushed her back to the vets and hit google to see what I was dealing with and if I had done the right things.

Gut stasis, in rabbits, which i BELIEVE to be hind gut fermenters, like horses, is caused by lack of bowel movement causing too much water to be absorbed which causes blockages.

Like colic, gut stasis can be fatal.

Now, I imagine that increased cases of colic in stabled horses is NOT lack of water, rather lack of forage. Standing all day and night with a couple of haynets is NOT sufficient to stop a horses bowel going into stasis.

Yes, they aren't moving, but whilst a horse is moving in the field, it's generally eating.

I suppose either way, it just shows you need to ensure your horse has 24 hour access to forage and water!!!!

 

[1stclassalan]

many years ago i caught an awful cold waiting at a bustop, freezing to death, please report back to mom.
i believe its quite true about older people not drinking enough, in fact i might suggest we would all feel a lot better if we drank water regularly throughout the day, i personally drink a glass of water every three hours, and can recommend.
when my horses are indoors due to the weather they have damped hay 5 times a day 7.30 11.30 4.0pm 6.0 9.0 because horses need to eat at regular intervals, this encourages them to drink, i might suggest that fed at less regular intervals could cause them to bolt the hay without sufficient mastication.
my scientific qualifications are, (due to the fact i left school at fifteen, never to return,) watching and observing horses and common sense.

Observation, proper observation, is the basis of all scientific enquiry - so you are doing well, you don't need to be a professor to do it either. Just an open mind.

Now, it's quite obvious that all us mammals need water - but I'm not really talking about pleasurable drinking, drinking to make it easier to eat but enquiring about the point where the gut stops working properly without it. I have a gut feeling ( ha,ha ) that it will carry on working ( like an earthworm ) long after the point where we or and animal would be gasping for a drink.

 

[1stclassalan]

I base my statements on personal experience and 18 years of training/practice in my field. What do you base your statements on?

Please look again at my original post. This thread concerns two dimetrically opposed articles published in the sam edition of Horse & Hound - one saying that horses need regular access to water and one saying they might have evolved to do without access for long periods. Even taking as certain amount of context into account - both statement can't be right - and this is my only basis for comment.

It's obvious that horses should be given access to water but it may not be so obvious as to the EXACT reasons why.

My qualifications are the following BSc Hons in Biomedical Sciences specialising in cellular pathology and haematology - degree project was development of a novel stain for the presence of H.pylori in the gastric mucosa, MSc in Biomedical Sciences specialising in Transfusion Science - masters project was influence of fluid balance, particularly over-fluidisation and dehydration in the requirement of blood transfusion. I currently work as Blood Bank Manager and participate in a multidisciplinary on call service offering Haematology, Chemistry, Coagulation, Trnasfusion and Microbiology testing and also offering technical and clinical advice.

Very interesting - I think the subject needs more work by people such as yourself - preferably before it's published in public magazines. Your work in hydration seem particularly cogent; however; unless things have marched on while I haven't noticed I do believe that it's still fair to state that much of the hydration and transportation fluidity of the bowel remains unknown - even to top flight researchers.

As dehydration occur(s).................. the large bowel reabsorbs more water thus causing the bolus to become more firm.

At what point? What's your understanding of clinical dehydration? Don't forget to entirely prove your point ( well, I take it that you now wish to own it? ) at a certain level of dehydration every horse should suffer impaction, colic or display some symptoms - but they don't do they?

 

[1stclassalan]

I thought I had just read somewhere that it was proved increased movement in horses increased their gut movement? Maybe I imagined it Quite often I read things which prove old wives tales and think why did they bother trying to prove that as it seems common sense e.g I was always taught horses react to human fear and recently an experiment in Scandanavia showed horses' heart rates rising when their human handlers' were rising.

Ah.... you are just the sort of person to enquire into anything like this because you have an open mind.

For all animals that walk about or take exercise - most will "do" better if they stay doing the same sort of things so yes, having a horse that might have been well exercised or on grass turnout suddenly brought in and had restricted water may very well develop problems - but what actually caused it? There has to be a definative answer.

On your point about fear: if a human cries out in fear or panic - it will usually produce a response in most animals. I'm not sure if this could be demonstrated down to the level of heartbeat (on its own ) as how does this communicate to the animal? Some have better hearing than us etc., etc. In my experience, I'd say that horses can definately SMELL fear - I'm sure everyone reading this has had their mount sniff a pile of droppings and then show signs of distress or even go beserk.

What I am interested in pointing out here is, in as much as there are vectors for catching colds & disease - there are automatic processes inside your own and animal bodies which will not change until death or very near it - and I think the operation of the gut is one of them.

 

[3DE]

1stclassalan - you say a lot but don't actually say anything of value...

 

[Mike007]

What I am interested in pointing out here is, in as much as there are vectors for catching colds & disease - there are automatic processes inside your own and animal bodies which will not change until death or very near it - and I think the operation of the gut is one of them.

Clearly the OP has absolutely no idea how the equine digestive system functions and I strongly suspect it is pointless trying to explain either.

 

[amandap]

At what point? What's your understanding of clinical dehydration? Don't forget to entirely prove your point ( well, I take it that you now wish to own it? ) at a certain level of dehydration every horse should suffer impaction, colic or display some symptoms - but they don't do they?

Clinical dehydration and reabsorbtion of water in the large intestine are not the same thing at all in my (erm non scientific) understanding. Clinical dehydration is when the water level in the blood stream and all body tissues drops.
I would expect a clinically dehydrated horse to be constipated but that may be not the major issue and should resolve with rehydration and possibly a bowel stimulant.

If peristalsis is slowed, for whatever reason, then as someone pointed out earlier the 'matter' is around in the large intestine longer so more water will be reabsorbed causing poos to be harder. Conversly if a horse has speeded up peristalsis, diarrhoea due to salmonella for example, then the 'matter' is passed quickly through the large intestine and so less water is reabsorbed causing runny poos and if severe and prolonged clinical dehydration.

With all these scientists around I hope my basic understanding is correct. It is of course grossly simplified as there are other factors such as sodium and potassium levels etc. involved.

 

[3DE]

Clinical dehydration and reabsorbtion of water in the large intestine are not the same thing at all in my (erm non scientific) understanding. Clinical dehydration is when the water level in the blood stream and all body tissues drops.
I would expect a clinically dehydrated horse to be constipated but that may be not the major issue and should resolve with rehydration and possibly a bowel stimulant.

If peristalsis is slowed, for whatever reason, then as someone pointed out earlier the 'matter' is around in the large intestine longer so more water will be reabsorbed causing poos to be harder. Conversly if a horse has speeded up peristalsis, diarrhoea due to salmonella for example, then the 'matter' is passed quickly through the large intestine and so less water is reabsorbed causing runny poos and if severe and prolonged clinical dehydration.

With all these scientists around I hope my basic understanding is correct. It is of course grossly simplified as there are other factors such as sodium and potassium levels etc. involved.

Amandap - that makes perfect sense Let's hope the OP understands your wording of it. I've given up now lol. Comes across as someone who wants to question everyone but with little understanding themselves

 

[amandap]

Amandap - that makes perfect sense

Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body. It may be controlled mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what.

 

[3DE]

Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body. It may be controlled mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what.

I think that was the point where the OP had got lost... Hopefully they will 'get' it now

 

[amandap]

Op has got me wondering if worms get constipated now!

 

[intouch]

The only reason it's an old wives tale is that science hasn't managed to prove it yet! THere's a lot to be said for old wives.

 

[firm]

OP In the experiment about the raised heartbeat I think what they did was to get a number of people to each walk a horse down a line of people holding brollies etc. They did it several times and on the final time, the people walking the horses were told the people they were walking passed would raise umbrellas, shout etc ( They didn't though) The people leading the horses, their heartrates increased in anticipation as they approached the line of people and each horse's heart rate increased as well

 

[amandap]

Now my old mum is convinced that you can catch a cold waiting at a bus stop - particularly if you've rushed out after washing your hair or had a recent bath but come on ...... this is 2010 not 1710 ..... you wouldn't expect a modern doctor to bleed you to effect a cure.

Just to go right back to your first post.
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not! Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not.

Tbh mixing with strangers is a good way to get colds and other air bourne infections as well as infections transmitted on hands. Think of how many people aquire infections when they go into Hospital.
I used to get colds etc. whenever I moved jobs, was that mixing with a different crowd carrying different bugs?

 

[3DE]

Just to go right back to your first post.
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not! Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not.

Yeah, you're more likely to get in on the bus afterwards...

If you think about it your nose does run in cold weather though... Not quite a cold though.

 

[Holly Hocks]

Well getting back to the bit about water consumption, I recently brought my horse back from a stay in horse hospital for a leg operation and she is on box rest. Professor told me to feed her lots of sloppy mashes and make sure she drinks plenty to prevent colic......that's the only evidence I need - veterinary advice!

 

[1stclassalan]

Just to go right back to your first post.
I expect catching a cold waiting for a bus really depends on who else is in the queue and if they sneeze their cold germs on you or not! Not to forget whether it's a cold virus you have been previously exposed to or not.

Tbh mixing with strangers is a good way to get colds and other air bourne infections as well as infections transmitted on hands. Think of how many people aquire infections when they go into Hospital.
I used to get colds etc. whenever I moved jobs, was that mixing with a different crowd carrying different bugs?

Your point about contracting bugs at the bus stop from surfaces or other people is the science behind the old wive's tale's - though my mother actually thought ( and still prefers to believe it ) that it's getting physically cold out in the open which IS THE cause. Remember "malaria" ( it means "bad air") was so named because the ancient ones observed that folks who lived around stinking bogs were more likely to come down with it - the idea it was caused by bugs carried inside mosquitos took centuries to catch on( ha,ha.)

The thing is - we should all know better now - in 2011. Indeed, your own professed admirable qualifications show you to be well educated in such things and more than that - to realise that many of these problems are like Russian Dolls - you undo one to find another inside. I like to think that I will always possess the kind of mind that won't be satisfied until I find that last one.

 

[1stclassalan]

OP In the experiment about the raised heartbeat I think what they did was to get a number of people to each walk a horse down a line of people holding brollies etc. They did it several times and on the final time, the people walking the horses were told the people they were walking passed would raise umbrellas, shout etc ( They didn't though) The people leading the horses, their heartrates increased in anticipation as they approached the line of people and each horse's heart rate increased as well

Hmmmm..... that doesn't sound like much of a SCIENTIFIC experiment to me.

As I posted - it's my conjecture that horses obtain much information by smell so to test that you'd have to block their noses - causing stress! They also take visual signs so you'd have to blindfold them etc., etc., this would be to isolate just the stress vector you want to identify - pretty difficult in a human that you could talk to let alone an animal!

 

[1stclassalan]

Phew!

Peristalsis does not go on at the same speed regardless of what is happening in the rest of the body.

Do you KNOW that for sure? Does anyone?

It may be controlled

Ah, the infamous quote from Patrick Moore - "well, we just don't know."

mainly by the autonomic nervous system but it is still inflenced by the body as a whole, it is not a separate entity chugging along no matter what.

The whole reason for naming certain bodily functions "autonomic" is because they do just chug along no matter what. Your heart tissue will go on beating ( for a while ) even if ripped from your body, oxygen will still be passed to the blood by your lungs and the instructions fed to these various parts are very deeply founded and about which we KNOW very little.

 

[3DE]

Your heart tissue will go on beating ( for a while ) even if ripped from your body, oxygen will still be passed to the blood by your lungs and the instructions fed to these various parts are very deeply founded and...

Actually it wont - if the AV node is ripped from it's electronic stimulus ie the nerves, it stops beating

...about which we KNOW very little.

Actually we seem to know rather a lot about it - it's you that doesn't

 

[1stclassalan]

Actually it wont - if the AV node is ripped from it's electronic stimulus ie the nerves, it stops beating

Ah - at last - you've proffered a scientific reason. Yes, I agree - you could feed the entire body through a mincer that will stop everything fairly convincingly too! The fact that those tissues will continue responding to the nerve pulse is evidence for what I'm saying rather than tuther way about.

Actually we seem to know rather a lot about it - it's you that doesn't

You and I obviously have differing opinions as to what constitutes "a lot." Don't take my word for it - have a Google, dive into "Nature" or Scientific American and you will see that there's far more to learn than what been learnt - and sometimes it's complicated by having to "unlearn" some favourites first.

 

[3DE]

You and I obviously have differing opinions as to what constitutes "a lot." Don't take my word for it - have a Google, dive into "Nature" or Scientific American and you will see that there's far more to learn than what been learnt - and sometimes it's complicated by having to "unlearn" some favourites first.

I wouldn't consider Google or Nature particularly valid sources of information. I only read peer reviewed journals. Anything that hasn't been peer reviewed is just speculation. Next you will start quoting Wiki lol

 

[amandap]

There is much we don't 'know' and I imagine (and rather hope tbh) that we will never know it all.

Being now an old giffer, what I have learned is don't close your mind to anything and don't dismiss 'intuition' or even old wives tales out of hand. I believe everything is connected in one way or another and more and more evidence for the power of the mind and even heart is being uncovered.

They've recently grown heart cells from stem cells and had them beating in a petri dish haven't they? Yes systems/organs can function alone in the right environment but generally they are attached to living complex organisms. Chemicals, electro magnetic influences affect all tissues. If autonomic systems were completely autonomous there would never be heart problems or gut disturbances or even death surely?

I can't get on your wave length I'm afraid op. I find it very difficult to think of anything in isolation because that isn't how it is in my view.

 

[1stclassalan]

I wouldn't consider Google or Nature particularly valid sources of information. I only read peer reviewed journals. Anything that hasn't been peer reviewed is just speculation. Next you will start quoting Wiki lol

I notice you left out Scientific American. Also consider just what "peer reviewed" means - I could quote all my threads here as peer reviewed by you without you agreeing with any of them. You are free to challenge or review anything on Wiki - try doing that in The Lancet.

All sources of information are valid - the more the merrier.

 

[1stclassalan]

There is much we don't 'know' and I imagine (and rather hope tbh) that we will never know it all........... If autonomic systems were completely autonomous there would never be heart problems or gut disturbances or even death surely?

Well, I think you have your heart in the right place.

There are vast amounts we don't know - but it's extremely interesting finding out - and you do that only by having an open mind.

Crackers has pointed out that the heart tissue stops beating without electric impulse - the controlling influence and no doubt there is an equal controlling influence over that pulse within the brain's timing mechanism etc., etc., so until we know what the controls over the gut are, we will never sure as to what directly causes it to misfunction - to simply say - lack of water isn't good enough and may not even be true.

If the other article is to be believed, we have to consider some stress dysfunction to be good in the sense of the Evolution of Species by Natural Selection - because now we know what Darwin didn't ( D.N.A.) controls the spacial parameters of all life so that mutations of the double helix in one generation accounts for all changes in future.

 

[3DE]

I notice you left out Scientific American. Also consider just what "peer reviewed" means - I could quote all my threads here as peer reviewed by you without you agreeing with any of them. You are free to challenge or review anything on Wiki - try doing that in The Lancet.

Peer reviewed means a piece of research has been reproduced and challenged and proven, or for that matter dispoven. There is a scale of 'value' with a single article having the least scientific value and a multi centre comparison having the most.

Scientific American is a magazine, not a journal. The lancet publishes journals - they have no say on what the research involved, they merely deem whether it can grace their pages. And FWIW you can challenge articles in the Lancet - that is what the letters in response pages are for. If you query something, the query itself goes down in the annals of history.

As I said before, a single article in a single journal (so therefor the Lancet itself) has less value than say a study done based on multicentre comparisons using the Cochrane database.

I hope I have educated you a little bit there OP - you talk about scientific matter but only really use laymans terms which shows your lack of in-depth knowledge.

Another FWIW - mutations in DNA frequently don't cause change. A lot of DNA is 'junk' with actually helps prevent this. Also usually several genes can code for the same protein meaning that if one is knocked out, you can still produce the protein

Also you state that the exact function of the control of the gut isn't known - well it is. There are sensory neurones (intrinsic primary afferent neurones), motor neurones, and interneurones controlling positive and negative feedback mechanisms. All in all there are over 20 neurones controlling gastric function. The signals within these neurones are controlled by the Sodium/potassium balance. In dehydration the concentration of these increase causing misfiring or non-firing of the neurones.

If you are going to state that something isn't known, please provide evidence as we are likely to refute your claim and make you look foolish lol

Edit - read back you last paragraph - it makes no sense whatsoever. In the words of Shakespeare "It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing". I'm not actually calling you an idiot as clearly you have a thirst for knowledge but you current level of understanding means you are a bit out of your depth making comments like you do.

 

[amandap]

I'm pleased to know my heart is in the right place! Hope my pacemaker doesn't give out.