Science versus Old Wives Tales?

[firm]

Sorry OP it was not scientific enough for you LOL I was just using it as an example of where something common sense seems too obvious to need to be proved. You can check it out more here
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/5871172/horses_become_nervous_when_riders_are.html

or read the whole thing if you subscribe to Pubmed http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19394879

 

[tristar]

i did infact catch the afore mentioned cold at bus stop without being sneezed on, and subsequently have caught many a cold from just getting too cold or wet therefore i belie.
ve it is perfectly possible to have two kinds of cold, one from chilling and another by virus.
i have an ancient horse book, 18 th century, which my vet said i should throw in the bin, but did not and continue to read, wherein it states that colic in horses is a largely preventable ailment, bearing in mind they had not the drugs and ops in those days it would appear that colic was avoided by good management on the whole.
this to my mind is scientifically important, due to the large horse population of actual working horses exisisting at that time, as opposed to a staged experiment, bearing in mind that this covers a large cross section of the working horse world, does this mean they were more knowlegeable? looking at some modern practices and trends in horse feeding i would suggest that they were.

 

[firm]

Tristar, you are so right about old horse books. The detail in mine in about the importance of correct ventilation in stabling for instance.
You also got me thinking about the cold and colds so I googled it and OP I hate to tell you but your Mum might be right LOL according to Cardiff Cold Centre

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/4433496.stm

 

[amandap]

lol
I think our intuition is vastly underated personally. I've been caught out with 'old wives tales' before so I try my hardest never to dismiss them out of hand.

I'm another believer that colic is largely preventable along with quite a few other common conditions horses get and are often pts for. Nature knows what she is doing and I think we humans are failing if we continue to insist we know better.

 

[tristar]

talking to an equine nutritionist or whatever you call them, he was concerned about the diet some horses are receiving, he said and i quote, 'poor horses';
talking to an eminent veterinery surgeon in deauville, who looks after horse worth millions, she was concerned about the way we are keeping horses and the effects on their health, and she said that when she sees colic it always seems to be on the same farms.

 

[1stclassalan]

My dear Crackers - I see that Christmas has done very little to cheer thee! I delight in your Shakespearian quote even though its made against me - you don't see much of that on the Interweb!

I hope I have educated you a little bit there OP - you talk about scientific matter but only really use laymans terms which shows your lack of in-depth knowledge.

Oh! Thou doest speak sharper than a serpent's tongue. Thankfully, I have the capacity to learn something every day and start off with an open mind. As for writing in simplistic terms - it would hardly be any good getting too complicated here now would it? I probably don't have the direct involvement in medical matters that you seem to have and I have also admitted that I am probably twice the age of most here and thus my education is of similar vintage;however; my No.2 daughter had a super modern education at my expense, gained a First Class Honours Degree in medicine and is now in charge of a vast staff - so I can always ask for a second opinion.

- mutations in DNA frequently don't cause change. A lot of DNA is 'junk' with actually helps prevent this.

No doubt you belong to the "Jurassic Park" clique when it come to constructing a genome then eh? Substitute a load of frog D.N.A. to suppliment the bits of dinosaur that couldn't be retrieved - don't worry - no one will notice.

Let me state something in my usual simplistic layman's terms - it's all there doing something - the fact that you can't pin it down - just means you don't know!

If you are going to state that something isn't known, please provide evidence as we are likely to refute your claim and make you look foolish lol

Well, at the risk of annoying you even more ( I think I probably do that just by breathing ) I'd say that I don't have to - because you are doing it for me over and over. No one knows it all - not even you.

Edit - read back you last paragraph - it makes no sense whatsoever.

Yours doesn't look too good to me either. I think your ire and angst gets the better of your keyboard skills when you read my posts.

 

[paisley]

Hmm- I'm going to assume you're paraphrasing a bit of Shakesphere, otherwise I think the quote should be "How sharper than a serpents tooth it is to have a thankless child!
Which rather ironically my mother used to quote to me, feckless infant that I was.

 

[paisley]

I’ve not been able to read the articles you originally quoted and have an exciting bout of flu on the go so some of my thinking might be a bit woolly. The main point you are discussing is that either horses need regular access to water or they don’t? And that reduced water intake and restricted movement are not instant triggers for colic, as supposedly the horse can survive for long periods without water.

All right, the horse can hold a reasonable amount of fluid in its hindgut which facilitates the maintenence of fluid levels. But this depends on the access to pasture, diet, etc. Can we also agree that there a quite a few potential causes of colic? Because if we could pinpoint one single cause, it would be like curing the common cold.

But a large proportion of a horse’s bodyweight is made up from water, so is it fair to say that water is probably quite important? And given the weather we have had, a change in routine, access to water and damp grass could reduce the fluid intake sufficiently to for some horses to develop colic.

I raised my concerns that a horse I was grooming for an event had not drunk enough after XC. He was bright, had electrolytes, normal temperature and seemed fine. He developed impaction colic in the small hours. After fluid therapy he made a full recovery.

There is a heinous practice of removing water from horses so they will be tired from dehydration and produce a reasonable dressage test. (And quite a lot of people will dispute that anyone would do this). How the heck do horses manage to re-hydrate sufficiently for XC and not get colic? I’m theorising that sufficient exercise and in hand grazing keeps them going.

I studied fluid movement in 1 and 3 day horses as my under-graduate dissertation. Obviously it’s not published data, and therefore not scientifically valid, but any significant fluid loss was replaced in hours. Of course this may also just be movement of fluid from the bowel to the blood. Incidentally, the horse that showed the least fluid movement was fed damped hay.

It’s just to point out that whilst horses can go without water, it’s not an ideal.

Frog-marching horses round and round used to be the remedy for colic till the vet arrived, though I wouldn’t do it now. I have put horses that looked a bit ‘grumbly’ in school to have a quiet (!) walk round on their own, and it very often works. So in my observation, movement has prevented a bout of colic in some horses

I know you want an answer that picks one option but it’s not going to happen. Read enough scientific journals and someone always contradicts another’s theory – as they should. Otherwise we might as well believe in a beardy man who lives in a cloud.

I have been clinically dehydrated due to a GI problem (and the small matter of vomiting on average 4-6 times a day over a three month period). And I’m defining clinical dehydration as: a nurse being unable to take a blood sample due to the lack of fluid in my blood, I couldn’t breathe when I stood up and on one memorable occasion after I had managed to stagger to the door, lost my vision for about 2 minutes. Hope that’s sufficient evidence for you.

I managed until my operation by tiny sips of water with electrolytes, but there were occasionally 24 hour periods when nothing stayed down. I’m clearly not evolved to go without water but it seems it’s possible!

So would it be fair to say that horses need regular access to some form of fluid (grass, damped hay or water) in order to keep their natural reservoir of water at sufficient levels to keep then physiologically well?
It seems the articles are simply encouraging good animal husbandry whilst pointing out the animals capabilities. You clearly have enough intelligence to evaluate each and reach your own conclusions.

And now I’m off to cough up a lung.

 

[1stclassalan]

Hmm- I'm going to assume you're paraphrasing a bit of Shakesphere, otherwise I think the quote should be "How sharper than a serpents tooth it is to have a thankless child!
Which rather ironically my mother used to quote to me, feckless infant that I was.

Yes, I do quite a bit of paraphrasing and expect folk to catch on. Shakespeare probably nicked this saying from a version of the Bible - so it goes back a long way. It's the sort of thing parents love to say to their children to add weight to an otherwise pointless arguement!

 

[1stclassalan]

Paisley - great post and far better than some folk on here who've just wanted to wave their credentials in the air!

I too have walked a potential colic about in the wee small hours waiting for the Vet - it was the thing to do back then - an Old Wive's Tale. For that matter many herds of cows had at least one poor old moo with no tail back then - the herdsman would cut the thing off without anesthetic to make her get up when gripped by milk fever! Because it sometimes worked in mild cases the practise spread - I expect there's still a few backwoods farmers believing in it along with the beardy man in the sky ( love that.)

I still maintain that both articles can't be right but perhaps they can both have a modicum of truth - natural selection is brought about by stress - because all animals perfectly suited to their ecological niche - stays there. Nature is cruel so horse dying from various restricted water problems would only serve to sort out all the individuals that could stand it - their progeny would develop more and more like a camel. Equally, if conditions promoting the camel attributes changed the future animals would change in response.

However, I'm still interested in finding out the EXACT causes which I am confident are not discovered yet.

 

[paisley]

I have to confess to plaigarising Dara O'Brian on the beardy man quote! - but he has some very good points on the way science is perceived in the media and general public, something science can suffer very badly from.

 

[1stclassalan]

I have to confess to plaigarising Dara O'Brian on the beardy man quote! - but he has some very good points on the way science is perceived in the media and general public, something science can suffer very badly from.

Ah, he is quite a clever chap - in fact there are a lot of clever guys out there just making us laugh these days - and if the stuff they bring up makes just one person think a bit more - it has to be good.

In general, I am constantly amazed at the lack of knowledge and awareness of how things work and the simplist of explanations will phaze most people in the street to the extent that they cannot tell between a proper scientific answer and alchemy - indeed, they don't know that they are different. Don't get me started on Astronomy & Astrology!

 

[tristar]

you can have too much science and not enough alchemy, astrology and how about extra sensory perception, combining the elements such as in normal medicene and complementary therapies seems to be justified, in the same way we may become happier more developed people by combining the the elements of earth, fire, air and water within ourselves, while on the subject of water i think horses should have access to WATER AT ALL TIMES.
whoever said , 'there are more things in heaven and earth', than science, had a point, in fact not everything can be scientifically proven, one has to accept that there limitations to human produced scientific evidence, and not to be arrogant in thinking we are the ulitimate intelligence.

 

[amandap]

However, I'm still interested in finding out the EXACT causes which I am confident are not discovered yet.

Mmmm, well you might be asking for the impossible here imo. You have to take individuals into account and what might cause colic or other problems in one may not in another. Science can be too specific sometimes we have to look holistically imo and understand how horses as a species have evolved and provide as close to that as we can in our circumstances.
Taking a supposed scientific fact and then applying it to all living beings (horses in this case) just doesn't work always. Science is constantly changing as new discoveries are made and new ways of thinking evolve so I don't believe it's as simple as science can explain everything.
Just back to feral horses who have to go without water sometimes in drought etc. Is there evidence they don't suffer colic? Also if there's a drought the plants will be more scarce too...
Normally I believe feral horses set off to water in 'good time' if it's a treck of a couple of days... I do not believe this can be used as evidence that horses in captivity can go without water as there are so many other factors which are not in common; diet, movement, stress levels etc. etc. etc.

 

[paisley]

I sincerely wish I had more alchemy in my life! Might help with a few bills soon to be coming my way.

I'm not trying to repeat myself or make discount anything that makes a person feel better but heres the 'Science doesnt know everything' clip from Mr O'Brian. He says it far better than I could ever type it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYba0m6ztE

 

[amandap]

I sincerely wish I had more alchemy in my life! Might help with a few bills soon to be coming my way.

LOL! Apply 'modern' science and you'll be fine! Don't forget hard work and 'luck' into the equation though.
Seriously, I always seem to end up in these sorts of discussions being seen as anti science. This is not true. Science is only as 'good' and 'pure' as the Scientists doing it, I think many forget the insentives that drive some Scientists, their results and their interpretations. Cultural beliefs also colour thinking and understanding.

 

[paisley]

Oh absolutely agree, science has to stand or fall on nothing but facts. This is why it has to always criticise and question itself.
Unfortunately this is why people grumble about the contradictions in science.

I only have to look to my father who stoutly maintains that 'scientists have never proved a link between smoking and cancer'. And when I open a window ( as passive inhalation of some 40-60 cigarettes is my least favourite thing) that 'fresh air is the worst thing for my lungs!'

Anyway, we might have gone off track slightly!

 

[KitKat_89]

No doubt you belong to the "Jurassic Park" clique when it come to constructing a genome then eh? Substitute a load of frog D.N.A. to suppliment the bits of dinosaur that couldn't be retrieved - don't worry - no one will notice.

Wah?

What C_C posted was perfectly accurate in the 'laymans terms' you are so fond of. Swap 'junk' for 'non-coding DNA' perhaps? Or if you still dont get it go and ask your daughter to explain that section of the post to you?

*headdesk*

As I have previously suggested, if you want answers - go do the research and come to your own conclusions about which article you see as most accurate based on what you have read.

 

[AndySpooner]

The problem with relying on just science, is that science is evolving, just like everything else. By relying on the science of 'where we are up to now' often causes more problems than we realize.

For example, in the early 70's it was accepted that if you put high levels of nitrogen on grassland it grew more grass, excellent for the dairy industry, of which I was a part. All scienifically proven, both by the fertilizer(chemical) scientists and the nutritionalists.

Therefore, thousands of tons of nitrogen fertilizer was spread on thousands of acres of grassland.

Fast forward a few years and thousands of babies are turning blue all over the place.

Up pops another set of science saying too much nitrogen poisons the water courses.

I do remember an old man telling me in 1976, (the long hot summer), 'you're going to poison everything with all these chemicals.' Of course we told him he was just a daft old bugger.

 

[Rueysmum]

It does happen. Back in 1989 a pony next to mine had to be put down due to colic caused by immobilisation brought about by prolonged box rest due to emphysema.

 

[finnywinny]

As above - dehydration means that the gut reabsorbs more water making the food bolus harder and more prone to impaction. Also being stuck in a 12x12 and not able to move slows down the movement even further - moving around actually aids movement of food through the gut. Have you ever noticed that after a long walk or swim you often need a poo? Lack of exercise is a huge cause of human constipation...

Yes - the same way we can get all "bunged up" after a long haul flight, all cramped and squashed...

 

[Starbucks]

Haven't read the whole thing, but OP keeps talking about natural selection, don't really understand how the horses we have in our stables today have come about via natural selection?

 

[amandap]

Haven't read the whole thing, but OP keeps talking about natural selection, don't really understand how the horses we have in our stables today have come about via natural selection?

They are all the same species and although we might of tweaked some characteristics they are all still Equus Callabus and the influence we have had on breeding has not changed them essentially.

The belief that modern domestic horses are somehow different to wild/feral horses is imo one cause of problems for our horses.