ainouu
Member
Also, joint ownership applies to goods in undivided bulk where persons A and B have paid X amount to get a share in the goods. It does not apply in this case.
Scotland: ownership dispute
- Thread starter Miss L Toe
- Start date
Spring Feather
Well-Known Member
I have two sales contracts that I use in the sales of horses. One is that once the first payment is made by the purchaser the ownership transfers to them and all liability etc is their responsibility from then on. The other contract is one that does not allow ownership to transfer until the final payment is made. Both contracts state the horse remains with me until final payment has been made.
You probably need a lawyer to look closely at your contract to ascertain how, in practice, your contract works due to non-payment and what recourse you have in your situation.
You probably need a lawyer to look closely at your contract to ascertain how, in practice, your contract works due to non-payment and what recourse you have in your situation.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I wondered about this, before I rushed out and bought a chainsaw to allocate parts........... there is something about a pound of flesh in shakespare!
FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
It is not £120 to speak to a solicitor. Why on earth would you ask your vet to find you a solicitor. Go and speak to a solicitor who does a free initial consultation!
Tickles
Well-Known Member
Seems that the (wannabe) buyer had offered horse back in return for repayment of what she paid?
Assuming that you have a genuine concern for horse's welfare (and that we're not talking about a ridiculously expensive horse here, which, given buyer has no fixed abode I'm guessing is not the case!) I'd go back to that as an option.
Unless you're prepared to spend a lot of time/money proving that horse has not been kept satisfactorily or you have something watertight in contract about no refund if payments stop then you might as well right off any 'compensation' - you've saved yourself livery for a few weeks anyway.
Maybe give both yourself ad buyer a 'sleep on it' and call them up tomorrow saying 'hey, that idea you had about returning horse...' etc?
Assuming that you have a genuine concern for horse's welfare (and that we're not talking about a ridiculously expensive horse here, which, given buyer has no fixed abode I'm guessing is not the case!) I'd go back to that as an option.
Unless you're prepared to spend a lot of time/money proving that horse has not been kept satisfactorily or you have something watertight in contract about no refund if payments stop then you might as well right off any 'compensation' - you've saved yourself livery for a few weeks anyway.
Maybe give both yourself ad buyer a 'sleep on it' and call them up tomorrow saying 'hey, that idea you had about returning horse...' etc?
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
The reason to ask a vet is to find one with experience of these matters, it is no use asking the local one, I have been there and done that.... they do conveyancing and executorships, skimming the top layer off the estates of the rich widows round here.
Some senior vets have training as "expert witness", this is a distinct career opportunity for them, and they will have come across solicitors in court.
Please don't think you can knock on any door and find a suitable professional. Most of them will happily take your money, but I have never heard of anyone saying "use so and so, the problem is sorted"
Searching on the Law Society of Scotland does not come up with any answers to "equine" . I am trying to do this properly, using a logical method rather than throwing darts at a board blindfolded.
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FfionWinnie
Well-Known Member
I am sure you will correct me if I'm wrong, but a horse is just a possession in the eyes on the law. Any solicitor can advise you at this stage, for free. I'd rather have some free advice from someone who knows about the law than folk on a forum who may or not know. One letter might be enough to resolve this, people don't like getting lawyers letters.
be positive
Well-Known Member
I have no idea if the laws are the same in Scotland but try the link below, the initial call is free so it will do no harm even if they cannot advise.
www.equinelawuk.co.uk
www.equinelawuk.co.uk
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I have had some useful advice on here, mostly by pm when it comes to tipping the scales [of justice?] in my favour, it is immediately evident which are from well meaning people and which are from legal eagles!
I have contacted Horsewatch Scotland, as suggested on here, this is an organisation which deal with matters of this nature often.
You will see from previous postings that possessions fall into different categories, most particularly in this case, the horse is one which cannot be "divided up", unlike a tonne of hay.
Also the goods are not in good order, but unlike a car they cannot be repaired by the application of a new set of tyres.
Better to have a few ideas rather than rely on one person who has his own agenda and a limited knowledge base [can you believe some professionals are "not very professional"]. They are good at obfuscation, that is often one of their main skills, as given time, things tend to have a way of working out, though rarely to everyone's satisfaction.
The law is not on the side of justice and fairness and so on, judgements are based on previous cases. We are not going to the European Court of Justice over this one, no matter how unfair it seem to me as the agrieved party.
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Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Thanks you very much, all suggestions gratefully recieved!
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Have a look at this site, but before you do so, be prepared to adjust your mindset just a little bit.
www.equinelawuk.co.uk
Dry Rot
Well-Known Member
MLT, you are quite right to be cautious. Some solicitors are very unprofessional! I am currently chasing one. The poor chap doesn't know who he is dealing with -- yet!
The word "chattel" comes from the old word for "cattle" and simply means goods, whether inanimate or on legs.
You are aware that there are differences between English and Scots law, which is good.
In your situation, I'd start making a few telephone calls. Phone The Scottish Law Society and explain what you want. They will provide you with a list of solicitors experienced in dealing with equine matters. Don't be put off. Their members pay them to give out this sort of information! Some might even be horse owners.
Another approach might be to do a Google on phrases like "legal horse dispute", "Horse ownership court", etc., and just see what comes up.
Do not under estimate your local family solicitor either. Phone them and ask if they give a free initial consultation. If you can't get sense out the the Law Society, they certainly will be able to as they will be members.
I'd go after this girl as if I meant business (as I am sure you do). A formal letter stating the bare facts by Recorded Delivery stating, "If I do not hear from you by **/**/** I shall be forced to take further action as I cannot allow this situation to continue". Keep it short, unemotional, and to the point. Then follow this up with a solicitor's letter.
The word "chattel" comes from the old word for "cattle" and simply means goods, whether inanimate or on legs.
You are aware that there are differences between English and Scots law, which is good.
In your situation, I'd start making a few telephone calls. Phone The Scottish Law Society and explain what you want. They will provide you with a list of solicitors experienced in dealing with equine matters. Don't be put off. Their members pay them to give out this sort of information! Some might even be horse owners.
Another approach might be to do a Google on phrases like "legal horse dispute", "Horse ownership court", etc., and just see what comes up.
Do not under estimate your local family solicitor either. Phone them and ask if they give a free initial consultation. If you can't get sense out the the Law Society, they certainly will be able to as they will be members.
I'd go after this girl as if I meant business (as I am sure you do). A formal letter stating the bare facts by Recorded Delivery stating, "If I do not hear from you by **/**/** I shall be forced to take further action as I cannot allow this situation to continue". Keep it short, unemotional, and to the point. Then follow this up with a solicitor's letter.
EventingMum
Well-Known Member
Although I don't have any experience of this sort of dispute I do know that this firm do handle equine law cases (and are in Scotland)
http://www.smail-ewart.co.uk/about_smailewart.php
Senior partner John Armstrong is an experienced, keen horseman. I have no idea of their charges but might be worth a call, my family has used them for years and have been very happy with them throughout.
http://www.smail-ewart.co.uk/about_smailewart.php
Senior partner John Armstrong is an experienced, keen horseman. I have no idea of their charges but might be worth a call, my family has used them for years and have been very happy with them throughout.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Useless, they do benefit claims and that it.Can you speak to a Citizen's Advice Bureau rather than a solicitor? I think they are more helpful with civil issues.
Poor you and poor horse, why are people so mean and unreasonable?
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
UPDATE: had a long convo with BHS legal line, situation is complex, he recommends a letter from my solicitor will be more effective, which is correct, but costs £150.
It may or may not be a good idea to take a firm stance, when one considers the main thing is to extract the horse from the situation. This has not proved easy.
It may or may not be a good idea to take a firm stance, when one considers the main thing is to extract the horse from the situation. This has not proved easy.
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
I would have thought that if you want the horse back, you will have to take a firm stance. Compared to the price of a horse, £150 isn't that much!
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
To be honest I'd pay thy £100 odd
If its going to help get your horse back.
You said you want horse back and horse has lost weight and not being looked after properly?
Well I'd be acting a lot quicker.
It's been over a month since you were thinking about taking action.
If its going to help get your horse back.
You said you want horse back and horse has lost weight and not being looked after properly?
Well I'd be acting a lot quicker.
It's been over a month since you were thinking about taking action.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Ah, more contention and dispute.
Just go and get the horse.
Just go and get the horse.
SatansLittleHelper
Well-Known Member
I dont mean to appear rude but..one month on what condition is this poor horse in now..??!!!!!
Hoofprints in the Snow
Well-Known Member
Haven't read all the posts so don't shoot me down, but I would take the horse, cutting the lock and replacing it with another the same. Then I would pay her back in installments the amount she had paid you, minus any vets bills if they are needed if the horse is in such poor condition.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
That is not legal.
I have to involve other people, I can t expect complete strangers to get involved in something criminal.
He is now being fed, and has water 24/7, and is being groomed.
My first action was to remove him, but I was prevented, physically stopped.
He is not in immediate danger, and is being looked after a bit better, it is his long term future that I am concerned with, he is now putting on about 1Kg per week , and now has water 24/7.
I have to involve other people, I can t expect complete strangers to get involved in something criminal.
He is now being fed, and has water 24/7, and is being groomed.
My first action was to remove him, but I was prevented, physically stopped.
He is not in immediate danger, and is being looked after a bit better, it is his long term future that I am concerned with, he is now putting on about 1Kg per week , and now has water 24/7.
Mithras
Well-Known Member
Ownership has not transferred because the purchase price hasn't been paid in full, the buyer is in repudiatory breach of contract, and you have not accepted this. In the short term, write the buyer a recorded delivery letter stating that you do not accept any variation of terms or reduction in purchase price and demanding return of your property. You will have to refund the part payment, minus costs. You can bring a small claim yourself, depending on the purchase price, and might want to start one asap. Google it. They are designed for that.
Talk of joint ownership is nonsense. Joint ownership is a complicated arrangement which cannot simply be created because someone failed to pay the full amount for a chattel.
I suggest you do contact a solicitor, as a hundred pounds or so is hardly here nor there in terms of the value of a horse. If you do not wish to take up any of the recommendations on here, you can go to www.lawscot.org and navigate to the Find a Solicitor tab and put in your search requirements for a solicitor.
It really is a bad idea to sell a horse by instalments, unless you can draw up a watertight, binding agreement, which provides exactly what happens when the instalments are late.
Talk of joint ownership is nonsense. Joint ownership is a complicated arrangement which cannot simply be created because someone failed to pay the full amount for a chattel.
I suggest you do contact a solicitor, as a hundred pounds or so is hardly here nor there in terms of the value of a horse. If you do not wish to take up any of the recommendations on here, you can go to www.lawscot.org and navigate to the Find a Solicitor tab and put in your search requirements for a solicitor.
It really is a bad idea to sell a horse by instalments, unless you can draw up a watertight, binding agreement, which provides exactly what happens when the instalments are late.
lastchancer
Well-Known Member
Get him home somehow - let her sue you... Not that she would.
Toby_Zaphod
Well-Known Member
The advise given by the police is suspect to say the least. They have offered an opinion regarding ownership & they appear to have decided that 'Possession is 9/10 of the law'. This is absolute bunkum. They consider that the horse is now in joint ownership? That's ridiculous! If this is their train of thought then if someone goes into a shop & changes the price on a TV from £300 to £150 & then goes to the till & pays £150 & then is stopped on leaving the shop then by their reckoning the shop & the thief own the TV jointly? Total rubbish. The thief is guilty of theft of the TV valued £300. They had not paid the required amount & the shop cashier would not have sold the TV for £150 if she had known the circumstances. This is a 'Stated Case' in England & I expect would be accepted in Scotland.
As this is in Scotland it is difficult to comment on as Scotland's Legal System is different from England, Wales & Northern Ireland but I believe that this is not a Police matter at the moment.
Asking for advice etc on a forum is ok but you need professional advice from a solicitor regarding this not the thoughts of various forum members. They are offering what they think is the right thing to do. The law is not like this & it would not be a good idea to accept some of these posts as the correct thing to do.
I know that some solicitors in England offer the first consultation at a fairly cheap price so try for one of those. The only way you will get proper, sound & correct advice will be to consult a solicitor. Your position is that you were selling the horse for £?, the buyer was buying the horse @ £? per week & the horse was your property until the horse was paid for in full. I believe a solicitor will advise you that you have a good case & the horse is still your property. If you eventually get the horse back then there could be some claim by the 'buyer' regarding monies paid, but that is a different matter.
As I said though, don't take my or any other persons word for it, speak to a solicitor, it will be money well spent.
As this is in Scotland it is difficult to comment on as Scotland's Legal System is different from England, Wales & Northern Ireland but I believe that this is not a Police matter at the moment.
Asking for advice etc on a forum is ok but you need professional advice from a solicitor regarding this not the thoughts of various forum members. They are offering what they think is the right thing to do. The law is not like this & it would not be a good idea to accept some of these posts as the correct thing to do.
I know that some solicitors in England offer the first consultation at a fairly cheap price so try for one of those. The only way you will get proper, sound & correct advice will be to consult a solicitor. Your position is that you were selling the horse for £?, the buyer was buying the horse @ £? per week & the horse was your property until the horse was paid for in full. I believe a solicitor will advise you that you have a good case & the horse is still your property. If you eventually get the horse back then there could be some claim by the 'buyer' regarding monies paid, but that is a different matter.
As I said though, don't take my or any other persons word for it, speak to a solicitor, it will be money well spent.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Don't worry I have taken legal advice and I have a solicitor on standby. It is because of the simplicity of the problem, as you defined above, yet the stream of difficulties being proposed by the woman and her solicitor that I am still at the stage of "negotiating". Her latest ploy is to tell me that I should not visit the horse because the police advised me to stay away! I think she has been in that Police Station twice, the first time they rang me, but not recently.The advise given by the police is suspect to say the least. They have offered an opinion regarding ownership & they appear to have decided that 'Possession is 9/10 of the law'. This is absolute bunkum. They consider that the horse is now in joint ownership? That's ridiculous! If this is their train of thought then if someone goes into a shop & changes the price on a TV from £300 to £150 & then goes to the till & pays £150 & then is stopped on leaving the shop then by their reckoning the shop & the thief own the TV jointly? Total rubbish. The thief is guilty of theft of the TV valued £300. They had not paid the required amount & the shop cashier would not have sold the TV for £150 if she had known the circumstances. This is a 'Stated Case' in England & I expect would be accepted in Scotland.
As this is in Scotland it is difficult to comment on as Scotland's Legal System is different from England, Wales & Northern Ireland but I believe that this is not a Police matter at the moment.
Asking for advice etc on a forum is ok but you need professional advice from a solicitor regarding this not the thoughts of various forum members. They are offering what they think is the right thing to do. The law is not like this & it would not be a good idea to accept some of these posts as the correct thing to do.
I know that some solicitors in England offer the first consultation at a fairly cheap price so try for one of those. The only way you will get proper, sound & correct advice will be to consult a solicitor. Your position is that you were selling the horse for £?, the buyer was buying the horse @ £? per week & the horse was your property until the horse was paid for in full. I believe a solicitor will advise you that you have a good case & the horse is still your property. If you eventually get the horse back then there could be some claim by the 'buyer' regarding monies paid, but that is a different matter.
As I said though, don't take my or any other persons word for it, speak to a solicitor, it will be money well spent.
In the meantime the horse is being fed and now has water 24/7.
AmyMay
Situation normal
How is a solicitor on standby any use? Get them to do their job and get your horse back.......
ihatework
Well-Known Member
Why on earth is this still dragging on?! Unbelievable that you haven't forked out for legal action yet.
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I am not "doing nothing" I just don't choose to put everything on a public forum.
AmyMay
Situation normal
So the point of this thread is what?
smellsofhorse
Well-Known Member
Excactly
We have tried to give you constructive advice and general moral support.
We want a happy ending.
You dont have to act on anything that is said, some ideas may be stupid and illegal.
But you dont seem to be too bothered or in a hurry.
Horse may not be about to drop dead, but we all care and want horse to be cared for properly and as i said a happy out come to this problem.