Second opinon on worming.

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lau_

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Hi there

I just had an egg count done for my horse and it came back good as expected, I gave him an Equest Pramox as egg counts cant trace tape or encysted red worm. I've always managed my horses worming and I like to do it myself as I detest chucking a wormer down their throat for the sake of it.

Anyways, I'm looking to moving yard and the place I'm moving to wants me to worm my horse again, probably with the same wormer.. So my horse will have had two wormers in the space or two weeks....

Has anyone been in this situation before? I don't want to give him another wormer as it is very pointless. He is in a field on his own and I poo pick daily.

Any advice appreciated
 
I would try to avoid doing it, and would educate the YO if I thought it would help. Worming with pramox has always shown up in mine's feet.

1) will the yard know if you have given it/can you say you have done it on day of move?
2) what is the rest of the yards program, will you have to join it and do you want to?
 
That's the plan but it's a yard policy to be wormed on day of arrival.. I've already spoken with the YO and they still want me to worm him again as it "won't harm him", They are all on a set program which is a egg count program but I'm not sure if they still worm if not needed which I will have to find out
 
In which case I would speak to your vet, as you can then pass on their advice to the YO. I'm not sure they would listen to a random person on the internet, but no of all things I wouldn't be giving twice in quick succession it would be moxidectin.
 
Thank you, thanks the reason I don't want to do it there is a very rare chance he can have full on worms in a week. I will phone my Vets tomorrow.
 
We have a policy of worming on arrival and no turnout till this is done. As an alternative new liveries can worm count on arrival and if sample comes back clear can turn out then. Could this be a compromise?
 
I do FECs and my two are usually clear, so I only end up worming once a year with Equest Pramox for tape and encysted redworm in Jan. However there is no way I would want to dose twice in 2 weeks, and if I'm clear for other strongyles and ascarids, there isn't any point in working with anything else.
 
I spoke to Westgate last year when a horse came onto the yard who had been wormed with Equest Pramox the week beforehand. Apparently the stuff stays in the system for 3 weeks so we didn't worm it again.

But I wouldn't blame a yard owner for wanting it done again. We have a serious redworm problem on our yard now as a result of a worming programme that tended to believe people rather than enforcing the policy.
 
lau_ said:
Hi there

I just had an egg count done for my horse and it came back good as expected, I gave him an Equest Pramox as egg counts cant trace tape or encysted red worm. I've always managed my horses worming and I like to do it myself as I detest chucking a wormer down their throat for the sake of it.

Anyways, I'm looking to moving yard and the place I'm moving to wants me to worm my horse again, probably with the same wormer.. So my horse will have had two wormers in the space or two weeks....

Has anyone been in this situation before? I don't want to give him another wormer as it is very pointless. He is in a field on his own and I poo pick daily.

Any advice appreciated
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That shows some very outdated and uneducated approach on behalf of your new YO. I would show her the FEC and receipt for wormer. If that is not sufficient, ask your vet to write a letter to say that your horse will likely colic/founder if double dosed on anthelmintics. Perhaps ask them to include a factsheet about modern worming practices to avoid worm resistance.
 
Its a shame you did not know about the moving yard rules earlier because you could have delayed worming until you got there. the new yo is being consistant and I can understand the horse needing to be wormed on arrival as there will sadly be people who will say that their horse has been wormed and who will not have done so which is why it needs to be seen to go in the horse by the yo. I would accept that the horse will have to stay in for a few days and ask if a worm count and saliva test will be acceptable due to the likelyhood of overdosing if the horse is wormed again. If you get the tests in the post on monday the results should be back fairly quickly
 
Of course not but they are going to cause more problems for the horse than anyone's pasture, especially if you have adequate pasture management in place anyway.

If I were a YO I would be much more concerned about someone bringing ivermectin resistant worms on to the yard but no one ever requests a resistance test.

TBF I wouldn't be going to a yard where the YO came out with 'it will do no harm' when discussing dosing with pramox in quick succession. I don't think we'd get on.
 
Don't suppose you still have the pramox tube from the wormer you gave? lol could you just say you've done it and if they want proof you have the tube? Cheeky but the horse has been wormed so not going to cause them any problems!
 
Goldenstar said:
A counts no good for encysted worms and yes I trust no one .
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Sorry but that is really irresponsible. You are right of course about FEC nots picking up those two, but if someone came to a yard who was responsible enough to do a FEC, worm for ER and Tape and you make them do it again, it's a real hazard for horse health and contributes to resistance which this attitude has contributed to.
 
xgemmax said:
Don't suppose you still have the pramox tube from the wormer you gave? lol could you just say you've done it and if they want proof you have the tube? Cheeky but the horse has been wormed so not going to cause them any problems!
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Wily fox! - but a great idea!
 
tallyho! said:
Sorry but that is really irresponsible. You are right of course about FEC nots picking up those two, but if someone came to a yard who was responsible enough to do a FEC, worm for ER and Tape and you make them do it again, it's a real hazard for horse health and contributes to resistance which this attitude has contributed to.
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Then great they could go elsewhere .
 
xgemmax said:
Don't suppose you still have the pramox tube from the wormer you gave? lol could you just say you've done it and if they want proof you have the tube? Cheeky but the horse has been wormed so not going to cause them any problems!
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And that's why I would insist on a horse being wormed on arrival, because of 'clever' folk who would brandish an empty worming syringe and insist that that their horse had just been wormed.

Also, why was Pramox used at this time of year, instead of Equest?
 
Tiddlypom said:
And that's why I would insist on a horse being wormed on arrival, because of 'clever' folk who would brandish an empty worming syringe and insist that that their horse had just been wormed.

Also, why was Pramox used at this time of year, instead of Equest?
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Equest and Equest Pramox are the same except Pramox does tapeworm....... good job there are some "clever" folk. You need to do tapeworm in winter and summer. This is the perfect time of year to use Pramox. The best thing to do is to do an ELISA test for tape then you don't have to use it unnecessarily as it is harmful to the gut lining and tapeworms develop resistance and there are precious few anthelmintics and wormers left that are effective.

It used to be Autumn but the guidelines have changed due to the warmer autumns... it needs to be done when its colder.
 
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Not it isn't anymore. You used to do it in autumn but since it's warmer in autumn, the advice is to do it later now. It's said that the frosts and cold snaps trigger the eggs of redworm and when the tape start to "let go" of their sections to proliferate. Latest evidence suggests (you only have to go to your local Mole Valley to get a lecture!) that doing too early, completely by-passes them and therefore ineffective.

All I'm saying is, keep up to date with the latest on wormers as no companies are spending any R&D on new ones.... these are all we have. The worms are increasingly resistant. FEC. ELISA and do what you can to reduce usage.

p.s. I worked for Merck (who produce many of the wormers) and I know that there is no new research.
 
Goldenstar said:
I have no idea why any one would let anyone onto their precious land without knowing the horse was wormed .
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But if they are worming with moxidectin you still don't know if they are bringing resistant worms onto your precious land which would be much much more of a long term problem and if your land is that precious surely you have other management practices in place too. As I said before encysted red worm are really not very likely to cause any significant issue on the land.

And yes as tallyho says the advice has changed re. tapeworm, the same as it not being necessary or advised to do twice a year anymore either.

Thankfully I've had a YO who knows I know more than them about it and trusted the status of my pony before I moved him there given that they were trusting me with their house and worldly contents too not just their fields! I can't imagine taking someone onto a yard that you immediately didn't trust or feeling immediately non-trusted.
 
ester said:
But if they are worming with moxidectin you still don't know if they are bringing resistant worms onto your precious land which would be much much more of a long term problem and if your land is that precious surely you have other management practices in place too. As I said before encysted red worm are really not very likely to cause any significant issue on the land.

And yes as tallyho says the advice has changed re. tapeworm, the same as it not being necessary or advised to do twice a year anymore either.

Thankfully I've had a YO who knows I know more than them about it and trusted the status of my pony before I moved him there given that they were trusting me with their house and worldly contents too not just their fields! I can't imagine taking someone onto a yard that you immediately didn't trust or feeling immediately non-trusted.
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Have to agree with this.
I was in the OPs position when I arrived at my yard, fortunately my YO took me to be a responsible owner who would gain nothing by fibbing and we just joined the usual FEC programme without having to double dose on wormer. The horses are in their own poo picked paddocks anyway and the entire yard consistently return low counts or none seen.

There's a lot of old fashioned style worming still going on though :( have been on many yards that insist on keeping horses in to worm and then turn out on fresh pasture... I thought the belief was now that was poor practice as you "infect" your clean pasture with only resistant worms with no competition. Try explaining that to someone who wants to just do what they've always done though...
 
*shivers*

It was probably in a BHS book years ago, it was also done a lot for sheep and cattle - although in part I also suspect that is because if you are moving/handling at the same time sort of works.
 
tallyho! said:
Not it isn't anymore. You used to do it in autumn but since it's warmer in autumn, the advice is to do it later now. It's said that the frosts and cold snaps trigger the eggs of redworm and when the tape start to "let go" of their sections to proliferate. Latest evidence suggests (you only have to go to your local Mole Valley to get a lecture!) that doing too early, completely by-passes them and therefore ineffective.

All I'm saying is, keep up to date with the latest on wormers as no companies are spending any R&D on new ones.... these are all we have. The worms are increasingly resistant. FEC. ELISA and do what you can to reduce usage.

p.s. I worked for Merck (who produce many of the wormers) and I know that there is no new research.
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That is really interesting, thanks for sharing :)

I routinely FEC and ELISA (assuming that is the tapeworm saliva test lol!) so only worm for encysted redworm. I did my boy with Equest after a higher FEC in November and moved yards in December, Westgate Labs advised that it was OK to use Eqvalan Duo in December so that is what I did
 
Can anyone explain to me what the point of FEC testing is if you are going to worm with moxidectin for encysted redworm anyway? I thought moxidectin was a broad spectrum wormer that does everything but tape?
 
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