Sellers' honesty and buyer suitability

Nancykitt

Nancykitt

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Having read a lot recently about horse purchases that haven't gone well, I started to think about the extent to which sellers and buyers consider suitability.

Someone commented on the Dodgy Dealers page that the dealer had seen the buyer ride the horse and gave the opinion that it was a good match. Turns out it wasn't and they were having some trouble returning and getting a refund. One person commented that it is the dealer's job to sell and in no way should they be responsible for ensuring that the horse is suitable for the buyer; that responsibility lies 100% with the buyer.

As someone who has no real experience of selling horses, I was just wondering if there is a general consensus on this.
Does the seller have any responsibility (moral/ethical rather than legal) to make sure that the buyer is a good match for the horse, as far as they can tell?
In your view, is it different for dealers compared to private sales?

When I bought AJ, the dealer selling him knew about my (lack of) riding ability and the sort of thing I was after because she'd seen me out hunting on a number of occasions. She steered me away from my first choice of a pretty dappled grey coblet (so glad she did!) and offered little AJ on a two-week trial period, which included a day's hunting. I was slightly dubious about taking on such a young pony but she said that she was 99% sure he'd be good for me. And she was right. But I appreciate that not everyone can possibly know the background of those who come to view a horse...how do you assess suitability?

It also seems that there is a lot of buying unseen, with buyers relying totally on the sellers' description. I know some dealers are brutally honest and then say that if things go wrong it's basically the buyer's fault.

Thankfully I'm not looking to buy as we have Ozzy now - tbh, from what I'm reading, buying and selling horses looks to be a bit of a nightmare at the moment!

Just interested in people's views.
 
A good dealer will size up a prospective purchaser and will steer them away from trying a horse that isn’t going to suit them to another one that is more likely to be suitable. Or just say that they haven’t got anything in to suit.

I can’t recognise how a good dealer would ever sell a horse untried to an unknown randomer. Different altogether if a known or vouched for person wants to risk buying unseen.
 
I think most dealers take some responsibility, the majority of dealers are doing it surely because it funds a lifestyle where they get to work with horses, so like horses and want the best for them, although there are obviously some outright chancers too. They also have a strong incentive to create a good match in wanting to have a good reputation. But there is also has to be an element of buyer beware.
 
First Frost said:
However from experience this also requires the buyer to be honest with themselves and you - they are often not!!
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Absolutely! I knew of someone who was desperate to own a KWPN even though she'd had very few lessons in her entire life and done absolutely nothing other than hack (Not a comment on happy hackers, as I am one myself - but then again, I'm not obsessed with owning a warmblood!) Money was not an issue. However, she sent someone else - a much more capable rider - to try a horse, which was then sold on this basis. Needless to say, it wasn't a happy ending, but in this case the seller had done nothing wrong.
 
I think sellers, private or dealers, should hold at least some responsibility to do their very best to match horse to rider and rider to horse. But only where the horse has been viewed and ridden and the buyer honestly discloses their aptitude and experience. Having separate witness for the seller and the buyer present at the viewing would also be good practice IMO. I would not hold this opinion for a distance sale where the horse hasn't even been tried. Then you must take your chances I think.

I have sold a few (smallish number) of horses on in the past as a private seller, and twice turned away a prospective buyer. One being a 12 year old child with very pushy parents who insisted that as their daughter had already had a pony for two years she was very experienced and capable, well she may have been for her child's first pony sort but she was far too over horsed on a feisty 14.2 7 year old Welsh mare with attitude. They were not happy but I owned the little mare and would not have felt at all happy sending her to that home just to be faced with a lot of flack at a later date and the horse probably sold any old where with an undeserved bad reputation. The other one was a lovely lady, who liked the horse very much but the horse was a very quiet and rather dull middle aged sort who would never go on to do the exciting things she had planned. I had to persuade her that the lovely cob, although a true sweetheart she would never live up to the ladies dreams and aspirations. We are still friends to this day and she did buy a much more competitive sort from one of my siblings.

If we are selling a horse, private or dealer I 100 per cent think it is morally irresponsible to just grab the money and send the horse on its way if you suspect the match isnt going to work. Unfair on buyer and on the horse.
 
millikins said:
I think most dealers take some responsibility, the majority of dealers are doing it surely because it funds a lifestyle where they get to work with horses, so like horses and want the best for them, although there are obviously some outright chancers too. They also have a strong incentive to create a good match in wanting to have a good reputation. But there is also has to be an element of buyer beware.
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I do think the buyer has to take some responsibility. Take an instructor or a genuinely knowledgeable friend with you.Be honest with yourself about your abilities. Accept that if you choose not to have the horse vetted you are running a higher level of risk.
 
Mrs. Jingle said:
They were not happy but I owned the little mare and would not have felt at all happy sending her to that home just to be faced with a lot of flack at a later date and the horse probably sold any old where with an undeserved bad reputation.
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My riding instructor was approached by a father wanting to buy a 'performance horse' for his daughter; he'd taken a liking to one of her showjumpers.
Instructor knew that the daughter was not capable of handling/riding the (extremely sharp) mare.
After trying to be tactful and getting nowhere, she eventually said 'Look, this mare is likely to kill you. And I'm not even joking.'
Things went pretty sour but I really admired her honesty!
 
I think you have to take responsibility for yourself .
You can’t buy a horse who is too much for you and then blame the seller .
However when I have sold ( I don’t really sell very often ) I have always been really careful about where they went to .

I also think much more than riding ability goes into a horse being suitable how the horses is kept is also very important and the seller has little control over this .
 
Goldenstar said:
I also think much more than riding ability goes into a horse being suitable how the horses is kept is also very important and the seller has little control over this .
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I agree, I was always told to never buy a horse that is being kept in an entirely different set up to the one you will be taking it too. i.e a horse kept hot housed and pampered within an inch of its life with barely more than an hour or two out in the field 365 days of the year, then just bring it home and turn it out on 30 acres in a herd and expect it to settle in nicely and be the same horse you tried. And vice versa of course. Obviously with careful handling and a gradual change of set up it can be done successfully, but it can very quickly change a horse's personality totally if you don't really know what you are doing.
 
When I was shopping I went to see a dealer who I'd be happy to recommend even though I didn't buy from her. I was honest in my desire for a confidence giving first horse and she told me she only had one suitable although others would have met my height age etc. requirements. There was also no pressure to buy and multiple viewings were encouraged.

The pony I bought took a long time to settle into being the pony I tried and in hind sight there were many questions and situations I should have tried but I was smitten. I knew I could have sent her back as well but I'm just not that sort of person. Horses are horses and I just happen to have bought a sensitive one who put me through my paces but I was able to persevere because I also chose a good yard with a sensible supportive YO/instructor and liveries who have held my hand.

I do have a fair bit of space for sellers who's ponies turn into fire breathing dragons as I don't in any way think my pony was misadvertised but also have an understanding of the support system necessary to make it work. People obviously have different expectations of the whole experience. My main aim was to build a relationship with my new pony I had no aspirations of competitions etc.
 
When I was young I used to ride for a low end dealer, we were basically teenagers that were self taught and looking back if the buyer couldn't get on with the pony they couldn't ride, at all.
We had a 14.2 TB type I rode and someone came to view, I got on it first in five acre field, then the girl got on it. It didn't do anything wrong, but it was not a pretty picture. The old dealer, brown coat and bit of bailer twine around is waist, said three time to the father, its not for you, after the third time he walked away back to the yard. They bought it, and later the dealer said to me I told them it wasn't right but they insisted so I took the money.
Unless you are selling privately its someone’s living and I suppose most car dealerships do not stop people buying cars they have not the ability to drive. I have stopped the sale of two of my own because they were not competent, but I have also sold two who should have been well capable of riding them, they had competed at national level and one was a pro, and they still effed it up. I bought them back as old ponies.
I my experience people do a lot of basic stupid things, I have never been a 'good' rider, but what I am good at is assessing the animal and avoiding training arguments that people seem bent on having. People are mostly looking for the performance and the look of a Jag, but really they are only capable of riding/ managing 1000hp run around.

My advice is always by something where the rider does not ride as well as you, there isn't a horse walker and its hacked out a lot. If it can not go down the road on its own out of the yard unless you have time and help its not for you. At fourteen anything I rode would go out on its own in traffic and across fields without a fuss or me being dumped.
 
honetpot said:
When I was young I used to ride for a low end dealer, we were basically teenagers that were self taught and looking back if the buyer couldn't get on with the pony they couldn't ride, at all.
We had a 14.2 TB type I rode and someone came to view, I got on it first in five acre field, then the girl got on it. It didn't do anything wrong, but it was not a pretty picture. The old dealer, brown coat and bit of bailer twine around is waist, said three time to the father, its not for you, after the third time he walked away back to the yard. They bought it, and later the dealer said to me I told them it wasn't right but they insisted so I took the money.
Unless you are selling privately its someone’s living and I suppose most car dealerships do not stop people buying cars they have not the ability to drive. I have stopped the sale of two of my own because they were not competent, but I have also sold two who should have been well capable of riding them, they had competed at national level and one was a pro, and they still effed it up. I bought them back as old ponies.
I my experience people do a lot of basic stupid things, I have never been a 'good' rider, but what I am good at is assessing the animal and avoiding training arguments that people seem bent on having. People are mostly looking for the performance and the look of a Jag, but really they are only capable of riding/ managing 1000hp run around.

My advice is always by something where the rider does not ride as well as you, there isn't a horse walker and its hacked out a lot. If it can not go down the road on its own out of the yard unless you have time and help its not for you. At fourteen anything I rode would go out on its own in traffic and across fields without a fuss or me being dumped.
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The thing is if you want a well trained horse it’s going to have to be ridden by good riders .
So what I would suggest is if you are inexperienced or say older buy a horse that’s doing the job you want .
If you want to hack alone buy a horse with that in its cv .
Likewise management if you have a shed and a paddock don’t assume that a horse who is used to being stabled will settle to that .
Some won’t .
When you have a nice flexible set up and you can manage problems and you ride well you have loads of choice .
I have a thing when I buy a horse I don’t let many people round them when they arrive I keep it quiet handle them myself and watch them quietly ,they tell you loads about themselves when they first arrive .
That helps me plan the first fortnight which for a horse in work will be working everyday and travelling to work by the end of two weeks I would have a plan of where we are going .
I never buy another horse I miss it all but that start of journey bit it’s such fun .
 
Selling ethically is a long and torturous process! You spend time; blood, sweat and tears on educating a horse, caring for them and doing right by them. Then you put up an ad.

Responses mostly come like this:
- Will you loan? I live a million miles from your location but would look after pony well.
- Will you take x amount? (Far lower than market value)
- Will you take a payment plan?
- How much/where are you etc etc that is all stated in the ad
- I’m very interested can I view tomorrow? (Whoa, slow down, I don’t know anything about you yet!)
- I would like to put them in my garden/field without other horses etc.
- I have never had a horse before, will they be ok with that?

Weeding through those replies, which are many, you get a few that look reasonable or would like to call. On further conversation, seeing videos of riding etc you discount a few more. Arrange viewings of anyone left.

- Some don’t turn up.
- One or two pony and rider just inexplicably don’t like each other.
- Sometimes they’re genuinely a bad match having oversold themselves/their child.

You find what looks like the perfect home, carefully chosen. Off they go. You cross your fingers.

Mostly it works, every now and then they have a personality transplant after leaving home and have to come back and start again. Find new home, stay the pony you know, huge sigh of relief.
 
I used to ride for a dealer when I was a teenager so I know a lot of the tricks. I think 3 hours exercise in the morning before the buyers came to view in the afternoon was our record for riding one! We were told to take its water bucket away as well.

There is a reputable dealer near me who I know refused to sell a horse to an elderly (but experienced) lady. She went elsewhere and got herself a very smart Fell x who was far, far too hot for where she was in her riding at that particular point in her life. It was young and flighty and needed a confident rider who could send it forward, not a lady with a dodgy hip who needed something who was rock solid at the mountain block and didn't have a spook. She part X it with the dealers who had refused to sell the first horse and they found her an older schoolmistress who was perfect.

No idea what sellers think of me - I hate riding in front of people at the best of times and seem to forget everything I've ever learnt. But I do have a nice yard with plenty of turnout and company so from a welfare / lifestyle perspective I think any horse sold to me will have a good life
 
Its an absolute minefield on both sides, I think both sides have a certain amount of responsibility to make sure the process is set up to succeed as much as possible. Most good dealers do try, because their reputation depends on it, but its potentially more difficult with private sellers, as they have no reputation to protect, so if they wish to be unethical there is nothing to stop them, but equally you have to hope they really care about the future of their horse.

Buyers are very tricky! Its often not intentional, but sometimes buyers dont know what they dont know, so they can be misleading with the very best of intentions, add to that a lack of really comprehensive thought about what they need as opposed to what they want, and a lack of experience and it can all unravel very fast, with neither side wishing to do any wrong.
 
Goldenstar said:
The thing is if you want a well trained horse it’s going to have to be ridden by good riders .
So what I would suggest is if you are inexperienced or say older buy a horse that’s doing the job you want .
If you want to hack alone buy a horse with that in its cv .
Likewise management if you have a shed and a paddock don’t assume that a horse who is used to being stabled will settle to that .
Some won’t .
When you have a nice flexible set up and you can manage problems and you ride well you have loads of choice .
I have a thing when I buy a horse I don’t let many people round them when they arrive I keep it quiet handle them myself and watch them quietly ,they tell you loads about themselves when they first arrive .
That helps me plan the first fortnight which for a horse in work will be working everyday and travelling to work by the end of two weeks I would have a plan of where we are going .
I never buy another horse I miss it all but that start of journey bit it’s such fun .
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It depends how well trained. I made my daughters ponies but they were made for children to ride them, you can make them more off the leg and responsive, but often some riders can not cope, and that applies to adults as well. At PC an instructor got on my daughters pony and made herself look a fool. I have ridden GP school masters, would I think I or my daughters competent to buy one, no, because they need a level of maintenance, skill and time we would never have.
I used to dressage write a lot, and there would be a pro rider from out of the area to do prelim and novice. If they do a bad test no one knows, but one is for sure they were ridden with legs and hands of iron. I often wondered when they were sold how the new riders got on.
The buyer always has to be realistic about their competence and commitment. I have seen someone spend over £40k on one horse( this was about fifteen years ago) and £30kish buying horses from a pro and it has been just a money pit, the £40k horse lasted two weeks.
If you buy something who is perhaps not so a good a rider you have a chance to improve on what is already there, ride it like a novice as see how much it takes advantage of the situation.
There is a huge difference in having the knowledge to bring on a competition horse or even maintain its performance, than the willing perhaps but not so forward thinking one. but for what ever reason some of people think they need to buy something above their competence and that’s when the seller, if they need to sell has a problem.
 
Because it’s a dream horses are a dream in our heads we have this vision of how it’s going to be connecting that to reality and make plans to get the reality is hard bit .
You go you to see a horse it’s hard to look at that horse and not just add it to the dream .
 
It’s complicated. I’ve been at both ends. When I was trying to sell my last project, I got loads of inquiries like, “my kid has just started pony club. Would he be suitable?” No!!! He’s four! Ad was very clear about this.

Buyers should be honest about their abilities and sellers should try to match their horse to their new person as best they can, but no one 100% percent knows how a horse will react to a new yard, different handling, etc. Experienced horse people know this and figure it out, but for newbies, it can feel like getting hit by a train.

My old horse could be very weird if a yard had the wrong juju, but even after 20 years, I didn’t always know what that was. On the right yard, she was a dream.
 
Goldenstar said:
I think you have to take responsibility for yourself .
You can’t buy a horse who is too much for you and then blame the seller .
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This x 100.

Buyers think they are buying something thing from Amazon. You have seen the long lists of “must haves”.

Plus it’s frustrating to see those desperate to buy an outcome. The love of riding and training surely is building that relationship, building your skill and the horses education to achieve the outcomes.

Don’t put yourself in danger obviously but a bit of resilience and a quality trainer gets amazing outcomes.

Take responsibility for your own actions. For goodness sake ask a gazillion questions and do appropriate due diligence. With social media it’s so easy to do some quality background checking. …………….and talk to people who know the seller and/or the horse. Everyone knows everyone in horse circles.
 
I bought from a private seller, although she is a fairly well known eventer who produces some on the side.

She told me that someone had viewed before me, and she seemed they weren’t going to be a suitable match, so said they needed to come back with an instructor if interested, despite the fact they made an offer of full price on the horse. It was a younger rider viewing who had come straight from a riding school, and she thought said horse might be too much of a handful for them. I thought that was very reasonable and sensible of her to do, but guess she also has a reputation to uphold!
 
SEL said:
One of my frustrations in recent years is watching people buy babies and then moan they can't do x,y,z - train them! I know young horses are cheaper to buy but you need to spend £££ on training then.
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Or have the skills/knowledge/stupidity to train them yourself. You need all three in abundance.
 
SEL said:
Exactly.

I think I'm going to add "time" to the list as well given what I'm seeing with 1 friend. Busy job, busy life, obnoxious still unbroken 5yo in her field.
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Oh, yeah. And that.

I am pleased with the person my youngster has become, but I sometimes feel like I should change my mailing address to the yard's, because I basically live there.
 
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