Selling Unsound horses

[bouncing_ball]

That is not a justification for causing and animal suffering. We have a culture that everything can be saved, and if you decide that it's better for an animal to be PTS you are uncaring. I have even had a friend say I do not care, because I do not spend weeks weeping a wailing over the death of my animals. I have been present when a lot of people have died, including my mum, unfortunately not everyone get the movie picture perfect clean pain free death. We are lucky that we are able to give our animals a quick trauma free death, there should be no shame in using it.

This.

I did a lot of my grieving watching my late old big horse grow older. I knew when it was the right time. Doing the deed was almost a relief as I could stop worrying about him day to day, and knew he was at peace, safe and pain free.

I was largely okay with his death, as it felt right time. And I’d always given him the very best. Didn’t mean he wasn’t massively loved!

And for some he probably went a few weeks too early, but I knew, he knew, it was time.

 

[teddypops]

Years ago if a horse couldnt be ridden or had an incurable condition, it was sent to the knackers or hunt kennels. People seem to want to keep them till they die of old age now! Either that or pass them on in the mistaken belief they will die of old age in their next home.

I keep mine to the end, I don’t see that as a problem, they are looked after & healthy. No way would I have them shot just because they are old!

 

[FinnishLapphund]

Somebody on my previous yard actually said to me "a life in pain is better than no life". When discussing her crippled, skeletal old horse, she genuinely believes she is doing the right thing by him.
Some people can't deal with death & think life at all costs is right.

That is so sad to hear. As a human I can choose to endure pain, but I also have the possibility to entertain myself with things which doesn't require that much bodily movement, like books, crosswords, tv, internet, knitting, etc. But a horse can't entertain themselves with such things.

My mum can have days when she needs to take several pain medications, and can say to me that she's still grateful for being alive. But I really don't think horses walks around contemplating if their pain levels still makes it worth for them to be alive.

I don't think the sheep Brownmare described, who sometimes decides to stop trying to stay alive, does so because they actually know about suicide. I think for most animals it is more simplistic, they simply endure pain, and other health difficulties, for as long as they can. I presume that when those sheep reached that point, they just gave up.

I think it can be acceptable with some pain while you're trying to rehabilitate an animal, but even a horse who only lives as a field ornament deserves to spend most of their time being comfortable.

 

[SatansLittleHelper]

This is a subject very close to my heart. Once upon a time I was guilty of second guessing myself when a loved pet was starting to suffer.
Then my 6 year old Daughter died and it was me who asked the resuscitation team not to save her. She had many complicated medical conditions and was severely disabled. At that moment allowing her to be resuscitated would have been for me not her. She'd been through enough.
Now, having been able to be strong enough to do that, animals are much easier for me. I very much believe that a week early is far better than a day late. Animals live in the moment and allowing them to suffer is cruel.

 

[Brownmare]

I don't think the sheep Brownmare described, who sometimes decides to stop trying to stay alive, does so because they actually know about suicide. I think for most animals it is more simplistic, they simply endure pain, and other health difficulties, for as long as they can. I presume that when those sheep reached that point, they just gave up.

You make it sound nobler than it is. I have known sheep to lie down to die from being trapped in a fence, simply because pushing forward didn't free them and they couldn't work out that if they stepped backwards they would free themselves ? (In this case I did manage to persuade the sheep to rejoin the land of the living!)

 

[stormox]

I keep mine to the end, I don’t see that as a problem, they are looked after & healthy. No way would I have them shot just because they are old!

Its not a problem if you have the facilities to do so.

 

[Brownmare]

I thought it was only me that thinks the world has gone mad. Nature is tough, hanging around something that is dead or injured leaves the other animals in the herd exposed to danger. The scent of death or blood attracts animals further up the food chain or carrion, even the humble fly will in like Flynn, even when the animals not dead. If you have seen a sheep with fly strike it's literally being eaten alive.
As an owner we have a duty to protect as much as humanly possible you care what ever it is, from suffering. Horses have a monetary value, and selling them in normal circumstances is lottery, even when you think that you have found a knowledgeable home. Selling something with a problem tips the odds any further in it being cared for properly, by selling something that most people seem to not have the time, money or knowledge to manage.
Disposal costs roughly £300, if you use a fallen stock company, you can even pay by credit card. I wish people would stop buying things which most of the time horses do not need, and put the money aside for its disposal.
I think unfortunately coming up to Christmas like the lock down puppies these animals are going to be dumped, and by spring the ones left out with little to eat will be half starved. I have a pony from 2012 which was dumped with its dam that winter because hay was expensive.

Definitely not just you! I think a big part of the problem is that so many young children are shielded from death so they never learn to deal with it (lookalike hamster from the pet shop anyone?!). It probably all ties in to the rise of veganism too but that's a whole new can of worms!
I have to say I made a conscious decision with my son that he would learn the facts of life from the start. The first death he saw was a muntjac that had got tangled in a corner of fence and lacerated it's leg. He saw it shot, then hung up, gutted, skinned and butchered and he was not in the least bit traumatised by any of it because we explained it all to him. Then later when favourite farm animals or pets died he could deal with it far better.

 

[FinnishLapphund]

You make it sound nobler than it is. I have known sheep to lie down to die from being trapped in a fence, simply because pushing forward didn't free them and they couldn't work out that if they stepped backwards they would free themselves ? (In this case I did manage to persuade the sheep to rejoin the land of the living!)

So basicallly their thought process seems to be:
Try going forward some more, wriggle a bit, and if that doesn't work, lie down, and accept that this is the end.

Sounds as if they're definitely not aware about things like suicide, if they can't even figure out that stepping backwards will get them out of the trouble they're in.

 

[SEL]

I keep mine to the end, I don’t see that as a problem, they are looked after & healthy. No way would I have them shot just because they are old!

And so long as you have the facilities and finances then that's absolutely fine (I do!) but many of the horses being passed on are because their owners can't keep them any more for whatever reason. I was on livery at a riding school for a while and we got a number of 'much loved ponies' donated who would have been more deserving of being quietly and peacefully PTS at their home than passed on. The poor RS owner ended up having to pay out money to have a few PTS not long after they came because they really weren't suitable any longer for ridden work.

 

[Widgeon]

You make it sound nobler than it is. I have known sheep to lie down to die from being trapped in a fence, simply because pushing forward didn't free them and they couldn't work out that if they stepped backwards they would free themselves ? (In this case I did manage to persuade the sheep to rejoin the land of the living!)

Sheep are special though aren't they. I remain convinced that the ultimate goal of a sheep's life is to 1. Go lame, then 2. Die

 

[Brownmare]

Sheep are special though aren't they. I remain convinced that the ultimate goal of a sheep's life is to 1. Go lame, then 2. Die

You forgot escaping! And they get extra points if they cost you money while doing all 3....
Remind me again why I am a sheep farmer ?

 

[SEL]

You forgot escaping! And they get extra points if they cost you money while doing all 3....
Remind me again why I am a sheep farmer ?

I was hacking recently and we found 3 in a ditch who were supposed to be in the field. Friend phoned the farmer who said I've put the escapees back already. Ummm we're looking right at them. Fairly colourful language on the end of the phone at that point!! Its a busy road too so they needed herding up (again).

 

[Bernster]

That is not a justification for causing and animal suffering. We have a culture that everything can be saved, and if you decide that it's better for an animal to be PTS you are uncaring. I have even had a friend say I do not care, because I do not spend weeks weeping a wailing over the death of my animals. I have been present when a lot of people have died, including my mum, unfortunately not everyone get the movie picture perfect clean pain free death. We are lucky that we are able to give our animals a quick trauma free death, there should be no shame in using it.

Out of context. I don’t disagree and I’d pts if in pain or not able to secure a good life for one of mine.

 

[Brownmare]

I was hacking recently and we found 3 in a ditch who were supposed to be in the field. Friend phoned the farmer who said I've put the escapees back already. Ummm we're looking right at them. Fairly colourful language on the end of the phone at that point!! Its a busy road too so they needed herding up (again).

Ah yes, they can't free themselves when stuck but they can find the only 6 inch square hole in 10 acres of fence and pour themselves through it to play with traffic ?

Apologies OP, I appear to have derailed the thread into sheep ? **slopes off quietly to contemplate life choices**

 

[HollyWoozle]

I think you're right here. I hope I don't explain this badly, but I think that to an extent our society doesn't deal very well with death. It's seen as something to be put off for as long as possible in humans, and then this attitude carries over into our treatment of animals. Life seems to be prolonged at any cost, including at the cost of having any quality of life. Personally I do think that humans and animals are different, but I think there is an element of our fear of the unknown and societal attitudes to death in humans that we transfer to our animals. It's hard to explain to someone who's having an instinctive "yuck" reaction to the idea of shooting a horse, that perhaps a happy life and a pain free death is preferable to a prolonged sad, sore "retirement".

Absolutely agree with this! Well said. I think most humans have a fear of death and that it is carried over when thinking about pets, assuming that it's not what the pet would want because they don't want it for themselves, but animals don't think that way. I would far rather have an animal PTS than let it suffer or fall into the wrong hands.

 

[Winters100]

I have been horse hunting recently and been very saddened by some of the adverts I've seen. The 'don't be put off by his /her age' thing always put me off immediately, some of the horses I saw were in their mid-twenties, who could betray an old friend like that, its mind blowing.
.

I have a few times heard people say that they are selling their elderly or sick horse because they can't afford to keep 2 and "need" one to ride. None of us "need" to ride, responsibilities to our animals come first.

I have only once gifted an older horse. I gave him to a good friend whose autistic son had bonded with him, and on the strict understanding that he would never be ridden or sold on, and that I would take him back at any time. He came back to me in his late 20s when her son lost interest and lived in retirement for several years until his arthritis became too bad for him to have a comfortable life. So yes, I do think that oldies can sometimes have a job to do which is within their capabilities and can be enjoyable for them, but I really do not agree with selling them or giving them away and washing your hands of them.

 

[Griffin]

I bought my mare knowing that she was probably not quite sound but I would never her sell her on because she is my responsibility. It doesn't matter if I can't ride her, as Winters100 said, none of us need to ride. I love her and she is my pet as much as anything. I need to know what happens to her, right up until the end. She is bit of a walking vets bill at the moment but she is my walking vets bill! In addition, I think elderly horses can be very valuable field and stable companions for younger horses e.g. we have an elderly gelding at our yard who is very good at pairing up with new horses in the field and 'showing them the ropes' as it were.

I don't understand people who move elderly animals on so they can buy a new one, I would rather PTS. The only exception I can think of is if you were rehoming to a trusted friend/relative who you knew would care for them properly.

 

[Sealine]

As a very pragmatic person I find friends come and talk to me when they have a dog/cat/horse that is elderly, seriously ill or has a long term health issue. I often feel they are seeking permission from someone or want to be told to have their pet PTS. Often they know it's the right thing to do but they can't or won't make that final decision. If they haven't gone through it before they want to know what the options are and need practical help in making arrangements or they want me to be with them and/or their animal when it happens. Personally, I've never known a vet tell someone their pet should be PTS. When it comes to the end animals don't know there is no tomorrow. There are much worse fates for an animal.

 

[blitznbobs]

I have a field full of broken horses... happy but damaged - they are going nowhere but I am lucky to have enough land and stables for them all... I wouldn’t sell any tho if it came to it I’d pts — I also have a horse that had colic surgery last year ... he is sound and jumping BE90 courses I wouldn’t sell him but I might loan him out if I can’t ride him for any reason ... maintain control but give someone some fun.

 

[HashRouge]

I have a few times heard people say that they are selling their elderly or sick horse because they can't afford to keep 2 and "need" one to ride. None of us "need" to ride, responsibilities to our animals come first.

I very much agree with this. Riding is a luxury - it is not a right. If the only way you can afford a riding horse is to get rid of your elderly, not quite sound horse then at least have the decency to put it to sleep rather than expecting someone else to take on the responsibility. I am not, by the way, saying that no-one should ever give away or gift an elderly or slightly unsound horse. If you are lucky enough to find an amazing person who you are 100% certain will look after the horse properly and not move it on then great, go for it. But sadly I think that in these cases people often just want rid and don't really give proper thought to where the horse might end up.

I can only afford one horse - she is 27 and not rideable due to arthritis. Retirement suits her and at the moment she looks a million dollars and moves like a 5 yr old. I will keep her for as long as she's comfortable. I would never expect (or trust!) someone else to take on the responsibility of caring for her just because I desperately wanted a riding horse. I also look after my sister's 17 yr old gelding, long retired due to navicular but again doing very well in retirement. Again, he's our responsibility for as long as he has a good quality of life.

 

[Winters100]

I can only afford one horse - she is 27 and not rideable due to arthritis. Retirement suits her and at the moment she looks a million dollars and moves like a 5 yr old. I will keep her for as long as she's comfortable. I would never expect (or trust!) someone else to take on the responsibility of caring for her just because I desperately wanted a riding horse. I also look after my sister's 17 yr old gelding, long retired due to navicular but again doing very well in retirement. Again, he's our responsibility for as long as he has a good quality of life.

If only every lovely oldie could have an owner like you.

 

[Flame_]

I very much agree with this. Riding is a luxury - it is not a right. If the only way you can afford a riding horse is to get rid of your elderly, not quite sound horse then at least have the decency to put it to sleep rather than expecting someone else to take on the responsibility. I am not, by the way, saying that no-one should ever give away or gift an elderly or slightly unsound horse. If you are lucky enough to find an amazing person who you are 100% certain will look after the horse properly and not move it on then great, go for it. But sadly I think that in these cases people often just want rid and don't really give proper thought to where the horse might end up.

I can only afford one horse - she is 27 and not rideable due to arthritis. Retirement suits her and at the moment she looks a million dollars and moves like a 5 yr old. I will keep her for as long as she's comfortable. I would never expect (or trust!) someone else to take on the responsibility of caring for her just because I desperately wanted a riding horse. I also look after my sister's 17 yr old gelding, long retired due to navicular but again doing very well in retirement. Again, he's our responsibility for as long as he has a good quality of life.

I know its harsh, but some horses you owe a retirement to and some horses you really do not. I know it's hypocrytical and to a horse, well, dead is dead and it should either be acceptable to put down retireable horses or not but the way I look at it is that if my horse carries my arse around for 20 or so years whilst giving me lots of joy, life lessons and memories then if he lives for another 5 years doing nothing then awesome, providing that for him will be a priviledge. If I'd bought my horse and he'd spent 2 years dropping me, 2 years refusing to do anything for some elusive mystery reason, then 2 years in and out of bootcamps and vet hospitals convinced they could fix him before I had to accept that, at 10 years old he has never and will never do any work then it would be pts, and the amount of people I've known in this sort of scenario who've been judged for doing just that really irritates me.

 

[stormox]

If I couldnt ride my horse because it was old/sick/lame I would have no qualms about sending it to the hunt.
No I dont 'need' to ride, but I would never pass a horse on if it wasn't fit to do a job, too many scammers out there saying they would give a 'home for life', bute it and sell on.
And I want a horse I can ride, livery is expensive and I wouldnt want to be paying out for a horse I couldnt ride and to have 2 would be far too expensive and time consuming.
I look at it as the horse has come to the end of his natural life if it is sick or lame - it wouldnt survive in the wild. Too many people try to put off 'the end' with all sorts of tablets and medication when really a painless death would be the best thing.

 

[Winters100]

If I couldnt ride my horse because it was old/sick/lame I would have no qualms about sending it to the hunt.
No I dont 'need' to ride, but I would never pass a horse on if it wasn't fit to do a job, too many scammers out there saying they would give a 'home for life', bute it and sell on.
And I want a horse I can ride, livery is expensive and I wouldnt want to be paying out for a horse I couldnt ride and to have 2 would be far too expensive and time consuming.
I look at it as the horse has come to the end of his natural life if it is sick or lame - it wouldnt survive in the wild. Too many people try to put off 'the end' with all sorts of tablets and medication when really a painless death would be the best thing.

But would you really not feel that a horse who has worked all his life deserves retirement? I mean whether they would survive in the wild is not really the point to me. Seems really harsh to say that as soon as they are no longer fun for us they should die. I have had horses who have had many years happy life without being ridden - surely they deserve this? To me they are not bicycles to be thrown away.

 

[ycbm]

I have twice told neighbours that their retired horses were huddling next to a wall looking unhappy, but they thought that the bright creatures who were happy to see them when they appeared (normally with a delivery of food) weren't ready to be PTS. I've seen a third, but I knew there was no point mentioning it to that person.

I wish owners were able to see their retired horses when those horses can't see them. Sometimes, it's only the attention of the owner, or the food they bring with them, that makes it seem that they are OK.
.

 

[stormox]

But would you really not feel that a horse who has worked all his life deserves retirement? I mean whether they would survive in the wild is not really the point to me. Seems really harsh to say that as soon as they are no longer fun for us they should die. I have had horses who have had many years happy life without being ridden - surely they deserve this? To me they are not bicycles to be thrown away.

It all depends if you have the money and facilities to retire a horse. Many people dont.

 

[Winters100]

It all depends if you have the money and facilities to retire a horse. Many people dont.

I totally agree. But I also believe that it is not morally acceptable for me to kill a horse who could have many years happy retirement just so I could have another horse to ride. Of course if I could not afford to keep a horse at all the question would be different. Sorry to be disagreeable on this point but I feel quite strongly about it.

 

[ycbm]

I totally agree. But I also believe that it is not morally acceptable for me to kill a horse who could have many years happy retirement just so I could have another horse to ride. Of course if I could not afford to keep a horse at all the question would be different. Sorry to be disagreeable on this point but I feel quite strongly about it.

I think you are anthropomorphising 'a happy retirement' as a 'reward' for a lifetime of work because that's how humans feel about it. I'm looking out the window at a major storm, heavy rain, howling winds, and I'm reasonably sure that no creaky old horse would consider standing out in that or being shut in a stable stiffening up as any sort of 'reward'.
.

 

[honetpot]

Definitely not just you! I think a big part of the problem is that so many young children are shielded from death so they never learn to deal with it (lookalike hamster from the pet shop anyone?!). It probably all ties in to the rise of veganism too but that's a whole new can of worms!
I have to say I made a conscious decision with my son that he would learn the facts of life from the start. The first death he saw was a muntjac that had got tangled in a corner of fence and lacerated it's leg. He saw it shot, then hung up, gutted, skinned and butchered and he was not in the least bit traumatised by any of it because we explained it all to him. Then later when favourite farm animals or pets died he could deal with it far better.

I had to have the family dog PTS, it was unexpected so when I brought her home from the vets I showed the children who were about 6&8, because I didn't want them to be frightened and I did the full explanation why. My stock explanation is that we wouldn't have puppies and kittens in the world, if we didn't have death, and that sometimes things can not be fixed and you wouldn't want your best friend to be in pain or miserable. My eldest daughter was upset, said I had killed the dog, my youngest didn't say a lot but remembers it, but not as a trauma. I think the sooner we get used to the circle of life, in a normalised way, not as a drama, and that something else will replace us, it allows us to grieve and move on. Playing the tape over and over will not change the outcome but thinking of the future means you can find hope.

 

[splashgirl45]

i have never passed an old horse on and if they cannot be ridden i have been happy to keep them in retirement for as long as they are happy and comfortable. this means that i couldnt ride while the oldie was still here as i dont have my own land and could never afford to have more than one on livery..my last horse had cushings and couldnt be ridden much for the last couple of years as she struggled if the ground was hard so in the summer when everyone else was riding, i couldnt and in the winter when the ground was ok but the weather was crap, i could. the last winter i hardly rode her at all because she wasnt quite sound and i stopped completely in the march and PTS in the september as she wasnt comfortable in the field. if someone isnt prepared to give their old horse a forever home they need to either PTS or make absolutely sure that the horse goes to someone who is known or recommended not sell them to the first person who replies to the ad...makes me very sad when i see those ads..