stormox
Well-Known Member
Not disagreeable at all. Everyone is entitled to have their own viewpoint and all circumstances, human and equine are different.
Selling Unsound horses
- Thread starter confusedmum
- Start date
Not disagreeable at all. Everyone is entitled to have their own viewpoint and all circumstances, human and equine are different.
confusedmum
Well-Known Member
is that your idea of happy retirement or the horses ? Lots of people are happy to see them stuck in a field and convince themselves they are happy when they are lonely In pain and depressed and get one quick visit if they are lucky after a lifetime of constant care and attention and use ! As previously stated PTS is the brave and respectful thing to do for a horse it’s not killing it’s called euthanasia and much harder for the person who has to make that decision than the horse !! It’s broken my heart every time I’ve made that call but morally it was always the right one for the horse never for me .. would I would have loved to keep them to look at while they hobbled across the field towards me in agony desperate for a bit of the love and attention they used to have all day no I wouldn’t !! Horses have emotions too and retirement is not always going to be a happy outcome for a lot if horses it’s statements about killing horses that stop people doing the right thing at the right time !!
paddy555
Well-Known Member
totally agree. I keep all my oldies and they get PTS when they get terminally ill. If they cannot be ridden then I have to find something else to ride or simply don't ride at all.
splashgirl45
Lurcher lover
mine have all had the same life with me spending the time i would have ridden, grooming and fussing them or maybe a little walk in hand to give them a different view.. i still clipped my cushings horse to keep her comfortable and she was rugged in the winter and was also groomed in the evening when she came in so she had the rug off for a while...i hate it when people just chuck them in a field and ignore them....
paddy555
Well-Known Member
my horses are kept in retirement and I am pretty sure they are happy. Extremely happy. They get exactly the same living conditions and care as my ridden horses. Only thing they don't get is ridden. Nothing to stop anyone rugging an old horse if it is cold, wet or the flies are bad. Nothing to stop giving bute to help stiffness. A young horse can be lonely and depressed without company just as much as an older one.
I',m not sure why retirement woud not be a happy option for many horses if they are well looked after.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I 100% agree, a forgotten horse who has given a lifetime of work is a terrible thing. Mine have never been abandoned in a field, they can still be walked in hand to give a change of scenery, brought inside as necessary, groomed and fussed, the only difference is that they cannot be ridden. I am not suggesting abandoning them in a field to be in pain, just caring for them until such time comes that they cannot live a happy and comfortable life.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I think that I maybe did not explain well. I am not suggesting keeping a horse without proper care, or keeping it alive when it is no longer comfortable, but I know from experience that horses who cannot be ridden can be very comfortable and happy in retirement.
teddypops
Well-Known Member
Same here!
NinjaPony
Well-Known Member
Completely agree. My retired welsh has had 10 years of being spoilt, following my ridden one around and slotting into his routine. He is rugged, groomed, walked, fussed and lives the same life as my ridden one used to have, except for the being ridden bit. Now my other one is retired too, the same applies. Only difference is this winter he will live out as much as possible, for the sake of his lungs and on vet advice. Retired doesn't mean abandoned!
Brownmare
Well-Known Member
It's an interesting debate and I suspect the answer is different for each horse. It is something that is constantly on my mind as I retired one of mine 18 months ago due to lameness at only 14 years old. On the face of it he is very happy goofing around with my youngster and living out 24/7 with free access to shelter so he doesn't stiffen up, however he is increasingly jealous of my ridden horse despite the fact that he didn't particularly enjoy being ridden and still gets the same care as he did when ridden same as the others do. I am trying to think of ways to give him more time when there are only just enough hours in the day as it is...
Winters100
Well-Known Member
It is indeed interesting, and I agree that it is different for each horse. It must be difficult to deal with your horse being jealous of the ridden one. Is it just about attention? I am wondering if it might not be about being retired, but just about attention. What does he do to make you think that he feels this? Mine are both in work, but I see that my bossy old mare feels that it is her right to have attention first. I don't think it is about jealousy, just about being pack leader in her case.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, and I don't like judging anyone who has to make a decision like this. The problem is that when you have so many people telling you the horse could live happily retired, or with 'better' management, it makes it difficult for people to make the 'harsh' decision to PTS as they feel they will be judged.
Brownmare
Well-Known Member
My retired boy has never been herd leader, bless him. In fact the reason he loves having the youngster around is because that is the one horse that has ever been lower ranking than him. I think it is very much about attention for him, he stares at me the whole time I am doing anything with my riding horse but is then bolshy and uncooperative when I do stuff with him - honestly his behaviour is just like a toddler who is frustrated and doesn't know how to fix it! Also, this behaviour only really started after I brought the riding horse back into work after her winter lay-off. I think I might start taking him out for short in-hand walks or something and see if that cheers him up.
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
Winters, I have real trouble squaring your defence of an abusive game like polo with a belief that it's morally wrong for other people to put down a horse which they don't want to keep in retirement.
I think you have a nanny for the kids to give you time, and plenty of spare money to have a horse to ride while you keep others in retirement? I don't think anyone who hasn't been there can understand how much of a drug actually riding their horse is for some people, who are then between a rock and a hard place if the one horse they can afford/have time to keep is permanently off games.
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I think you have a nanny for the kids to give you time, and plenty of spare money to have a horse to ride while you keep others in retirement? I don't think anyone who hasn't been there can understand how much of a drug actually riding their horse is for some people, who are then between a rock and a hard place if the one horse they can afford/have time to keep is permanently off games.
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ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
oldie48
Well-Known Member
It's very easy to keep a horse "in retirement" if you either have your own land or there is not shortage of cash but that's not true of everyone and I would not judge anyone who had an unrideable horse PTS because they could only afford one rideable one. I'm also struggling a bit with the concept of "retirement" none of my horses has ever worked hard, an hour or two a day max with a day or so off each week is not work really like being pit ponies or ploughing the fields. Most leisure horses do even less than my horses and some get turned away for periods of time each year, not exactly a hard working life and for that they are fed and looked after very well. The result of this is that many horses live long lives and generally outlive their soundness or ability to do a proper ridden job. However, what sickens me is seeing elderly horses standing in over grazed boggy fields and not being cared for, much better IMO to PTS if you don't have the time, money or facilities to give them a comfortable "retirement". It also grieves me that people will loan out horses as companions but never visit or check on them then complain when they come back to them either thin or grossly overweight. by all means find a suitable loan home if you can but don't absolve yourself of responsibility.
southerncomfort
Well-Known Member
I think this has been a really interesting thread which has diverted slightly on to retirement and when to PTS.
Re: are horses happy in retirement, another thing I'd like to add to the discussion is this - what about if the horse is happy but keeping them alive and happy has become b****y hard work?
I've seen mentioned above the idea of the retired horse 'chucked out in tbe field and forgotten'. In the case of my beloved old girl, the last year of her life was incredibly stressful and exhausting for me. She had mild arthritis in the hocks so I needed to keep an eye on her pain levels and medicate appropriately and keep her warm. She had several missing teeth and couldn't manage hay or chaff so, especially during the winter, I would have to make up several trugs a day of soup for her. If she was out, I'd carry them out to the field for her. At one point I was spending £50 a week on food for her. Also had the vet out regularly to check she was happy and not sore etc. By the end of that winter I was dead on my feet.
In the end she was PTS in the spring when she became very unwell, but id already decided that was her last winter. Looking back, I wonder why I put myself and her through it. Obviously because I adored her and couldn't bear the thought of her not being there. But also because she'd given me so much and I would have walked over hot coals if that's what it took to keep her happy.
So I wonder if sometimes we work too hard and put ourselves through the wringer trying to keep them happy and alive, when the reality is that they are already way past what would have been their natural life span.
Going back to the original point, looking after oldies is seriously hard work but the idea of passing them on to someone else to do the hard work is abhorrent to me, never mind the mental and emotional stress it would cause the horse to be moved on at that age, when they might already be feeling vulnerable due to being sore or unwell.
Re: are horses happy in retirement, another thing I'd like to add to the discussion is this - what about if the horse is happy but keeping them alive and happy has become b****y hard work?
I've seen mentioned above the idea of the retired horse 'chucked out in tbe field and forgotten'. In the case of my beloved old girl, the last year of her life was incredibly stressful and exhausting for me. She had mild arthritis in the hocks so I needed to keep an eye on her pain levels and medicate appropriately and keep her warm. She had several missing teeth and couldn't manage hay or chaff so, especially during the winter, I would have to make up several trugs a day of soup for her. If she was out, I'd carry them out to the field for her. At one point I was spending £50 a week on food for her. Also had the vet out regularly to check she was happy and not sore etc. By the end of that winter I was dead on my feet.
In the end she was PTS in the spring when she became very unwell, but id already decided that was her last winter. Looking back, I wonder why I put myself and her through it. Obviously because I adored her and couldn't bear the thought of her not being there. But also because she'd given me so much and I would have walked over hot coals if that's what it took to keep her happy.
So I wonder if sometimes we work too hard and put ourselves through the wringer trying to keep them happy and alive, when the reality is that they are already way past what would have been their natural life span.
Going back to the original point, looking after oldies is seriously hard work but the idea of passing them on to someone else to do the hard work is abhorrent to me, never mind the mental and emotional stress it would cause the horse to be moved on at that age, when they might already be feeling vulnerable due to being sore or unwell.
BallyRoanBaubles
Buys real biscuits
I think I might have to make the tough decision about my horse soon, hes got arthritis in his stifles and I just dont think hes comfortable being ridden anymore. For the last year we've mainly hacked and done a bit of intro dressage. I now feel really guilty for pushing the intro as I can see he wasnt totally comfortable. But hes the kind of horse that loves to be out and about doing. He would never ever dream of napping/bucking etc if he wasnt happy, he genuinely wants to do as you ask him. Every time there is a wagon on the yard he lights up, he loves humans (food) and is the first to come to the gate to see anyone. I'm starting to see subtle signs that even hacking he isn't happy.
I have a horse because I love to ride and train them. I can only realistically afford, in both time and money, one horse.
I have a horse because I love to ride and train them. I can only realistically afford, in both time and money, one horse.
WandaMare
Well-Known Member
I think its mean on the kids too. While I was looking I saw a few pony club type ponies who were pretty old or had soundness issues and its sad to think that some unsuspecting family might buy them and then go through heartbreak if its health deteriorates within months, or a couple of years. I would want to protect my children from that, even though we all know anything can happen with horses and often unexpectedly, its not worth the risk imo. One of the horses I went to see recently while looking for a companion, had noticeable arthritis in its hocks and the woman said he would be well behaved enough for lead rein. He probably won't be ride-able by next winter which would be so disappointing to a child once they just got attached.
paddy555
Well-Known Member
but the simple blunt fact is that many can. All my horses, twelve of them are now dead, have retired and lived out their lives. None were unhappy, they had a great time. Yes it took work and money but I could see no reason to put down a reasonably healthy horse that had a good quality of life. I suppose it would have been nice to sit in front of the box in a warm house rather than tend to them in winter and probably equally nice to spend the money on other things.
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Tarragon
Well-Known Member
I haven't yet been faced with this decision, so I do not know what I will do when I am there. I have had one pony PTS after a horrible field accident, but there was no other choice.
I keep my two at livery and pay per pony. Both ponies are ridden at the moment and well, though the older one, aged 22, has cushings. The younger one is now 15.
In my head, i would never sell either, and I would like to think that I would PTS rather than undertake any major veterinary procedures and I would PTS if i felt the pony's quality of life was affected too much OR too expensive to maintain to be practical.
Animals have no concept of the future, and live in the moment, and I think that PTS is humane and, in some cases, the responsible thing to do, where the decision is based on your own circumstances and on your individual animal.
I keep my two at livery and pay per pony. Both ponies are ridden at the moment and well, though the older one, aged 22, has cushings. The younger one is now 15.
In my head, i would never sell either, and I would like to think that I would PTS rather than undertake any major veterinary procedures and I would PTS if i felt the pony's quality of life was affected too much OR too expensive to maintain to be practical.
Animals have no concept of the future, and live in the moment, and I think that PTS is humane and, in some cases, the responsible thing to do, where the decision is based on your own circumstances and on your individual animal.
PapaverFollis
Well-Known Member
On the whole I aim to have my horses for life. The exception to that was the young, sound horse that was just completely unsuitable for us in the end. We gave him back to the person we bought him from and didn't ask for our money back! But I'm also not going to destroy myself physically or financially to keep a horse going for as long as possible at all costs. With past experience into account I will be considering PTS sooner rather than later for any horse that needs a daily bute to be comfortable. I'd much rather have a planned PTS "too early" than have the emergency PTS situation again. I understand that can happen anytime but the balance of risk tips in older horses. I also, again with hindsight, think a lame horse is a stressed horse and while that's OK for a short period if they are going to recover think that any long term, degenerative lameness is a fair grounds for PTS.
WandaMare
Well-Known Member
What if rather than 'sitting in front of the box' someone was using the extra time to visit an elderly parent a few extra times a week, or spend more time with their child, would that make a difference to your judgement of them? Its so tricky, people have to make their own decisions based on more than one factor. I think its wrong to PTS a healthy horse because the owner wants to move on to a different type of horse, and I've seen someone do this sadly, but when its an older or retired horse, possibly with extra vet costs and needs a load of extra time, I think its different for everyone and the right decision for one person won't necessarily apply to someone else.
honetpot
Well-Known Member
How do you judge what is a happy retirement, in fact looking at some posts on FB, there seems to be a lot of people that have a poor understanding of equine care to start off with, and that's when they are supposedly in work and have some monetary value. I would rather an animal be euthanised than it face an uncertain future, for what ever reason, the animal will not suffer. How many people have posted on here when they have met a lack of understanding of why they want to have their equine euthanised, with little compassion and support given by people they know, when its really difficult thing for most people to do.
I have several in god's waiting room, you would think after nearly ten decisions like this it would be easier, but it's not. The first time I had to make this decision I was about twenty five, I discussed it with someone at work, 'can you not get it a retirement home' they said, I was the retirement home. For the horses that have owners that have the time, income and the commitment to invest in something that gives them little benefit, that is great for their horses, but what about the rest, and the rest seem to be the majority. The worst thing I have seen is the very old pony parked in the field, which although walking about had no interest in life, ignored by the rest, it's owners if it was lucky visiting once a week. A friend, who I thought had more sense, waited until her horse could not get up. There is nothing bad about going on a good day.
I have several in god's waiting room, you would think after nearly ten decisions like this it would be easier, but it's not. The first time I had to make this decision I was about twenty five, I discussed it with someone at work, 'can you not get it a retirement home' they said, I was the retirement home. For the horses that have owners that have the time, income and the commitment to invest in something that gives them little benefit, that is great for their horses, but what about the rest, and the rest seem to be the majority. The worst thing I have seen is the very old pony parked in the field, which although walking about had no interest in life, ignored by the rest, it's owners if it was lucky visiting once a week. A friend, who I thought had more sense, waited until her horse could not get up. There is nothing bad about going on a good day.
IrishMilo
Well-Known Member
What made your choice different from those people you're judging for doing the same thing?
Winters100
Well-Known Member
I suppose that I see the difference as being that I would not feel good to advertise and sell an old or broken horse to an uncertain future. In the case of that specific situation allowing the horse to go to a trusted friend felt right, but I was always aware of my responsibilities should the horse come back, which he did.
Winters100
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is true that I am able to manage things on the financial front now, but I have not always been in this position. I had to give up riding for many years while I was building my business, and some of the time money was very tight, so I do understand those pressures. Later I had time, but not money for horses, and for several years helped people with their horses in exchange for riding. I am afraid though that I do feel strongly that a horse who is able to live a happy and fulfilled life, but just cannot be ridden, should not be thrown away to make way for a younger version. I am not speaking of horses who are in constant pain, but of the many who can be sound and happy when properly cared for but not worked.
I am afraid we will have to agree to disagree on this one, as my mare may be getting towards retirement within 2 or 3 years, and if anyone told me to pts so I had time for a younger one I would really feel that they were morally bankrupt. I would not sell her on, and if I truly could not afford horses I would pts, but certainly not just for the selfish desire to trade her in for another.
confusedmum
Well-Known Member
The post was about unsound and infirm horses being sold on instead of making the right moral decision to PTS I fail to understand why you are talking about putting down a horse That is healthy and sound And is capable of living a happy and fulfilled life If it can’t be ridden it must be in some form of pain !going by the response on this post nobody has gone down the PTS road for selfish reasons they have lost their best friend and shown a lot of bravery and compassion for the horse that’s worked so hard for them ! Age is not the issue here chronic pain and neglect are and no horse should be “ retired “ to life of pain abandonment and loneliness
however noble it makes the owner feel
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
You do realize that you and Winters are saying the same thing, right?
Look, I don't know there was a post that got so personal regarding someone having a nanny and their financial situation. That was weird, but I agee with Winters that if I have a horse that is pasture sound, I'm in no rush to PTS if the horse is comfortable and lively in order to move onto another mount.
I get that horses don't get the concept of "tomorrow" and a day early is better than a day late. We're not talking pain and neglect here, we're talking a horse retired from riding, but living a comfortable life sans riding.
I'm confused as to what the argument is about?
CanteringCarrot
Well-Known Member
I suppose one can find the ideal situation for their unsound or otherwise unfit for riding horse. But IMO it's rare.
I do feel as though people are often selling these horses because they want to ride dammit. And if they can't ride this one, they have to sell it so they can have something they can ride. Maybe I'm not so ambitious but if my riding horse needs to step down and decrease his workload or retire to a field, I'm not about to ditch him because I need something to ride.
Plus, a vet won't put down a horse that can still get around, eat, and be somewhat lively. At least here. So in that case, some go to slaughter, some go on the classified ads. Neither is "right"
Selling a horse is a risk. Selling a horse with soundness issues is an arguably larger risk. The only way to know your horse has a nice retirement or future, is for them to stay with you. If you feel as though that is truly not possible, I can understand euthanasia. Realistically, how many good homes are out there for unsound horses?
Kills me seeing some of these old horses and/or unsound horses for sale, as I know the market for them is small. Idk how to fix that, really.
But we are a throwaway culture in general nowadays, and sadly, that applies to animals.
I do feel as though people are often selling these horses because they want to ride dammit. And if they can't ride this one, they have to sell it so they can have something they can ride. Maybe I'm not so ambitious but if my riding horse needs to step down and decrease his workload or retire to a field, I'm not about to ditch him because I need something to ride.
Plus, a vet won't put down a horse that can still get around, eat, and be somewhat lively. At least here. So in that case, some go to slaughter, some go on the classified ads. Neither is "right"
Selling a horse is a risk. Selling a horse with soundness issues is an arguably larger risk. The only way to know your horse has a nice retirement or future, is for them to stay with you. If you feel as though that is truly not possible, I can understand euthanasia. Realistically, how many good homes are out there for unsound horses?
Kills me seeing some of these old horses and/or unsound horses for sale, as I know the market for them is small. Idk how to fix that, really.
But we are a throwaway culture in general nowadays, and sadly, that applies to animals.