Session 16.....

[Armas]

Here is the video from todays session for those that are interested. Its actually session 16 not 15 my fault whilst editing the title.
Armas worked well today he looked very relaxed and was moving well.

[video=youtube_share;vCPgl0WXHuQ]http://youtu.be/vCPgl0WXHuQ[/video]

 

[PaddyMonty]

seems the video is private

 

[Armas]

Try now

 

[PaddyMonty]

Yes that works now.
Probably not what you want to hear but I found watching that vid quite sad.
What I saw was a beautiful horse being ridden 'by the numbers' with no consideration or understanding of the horse. Rider is totally fixed on whats happening in front of her and seems oblivious to whats going on behind.
There were bits I liked ie at 11:38 for a few seconds and a few more of the same but what I see at those points makes the rest even less watchable.
I watched all the vids so far, really not sure I want to watch any more unless there's a change of rider.
JMHO

 

[kinnygirl1]

Just to say I love these vids. Armas is so smart, visually and mentally! My pony is very different to Armas in type but also has a tendency to get on his forehand and overbend so it's really interesting to see how a pro trainer deals with it. I am taught to keep my leg on, control the speed with my seat and lift my inside hand whilst keeping it fluid so he can't set against it. Thanks for posting these I love them and find so interesting.

Ps... Just to say with Armas being PRE won't his head carriage be naturally higher meaning that it will be harder for him to go in a low long outline? Just asking out of interest.

 

[TheMule]

I dont get why she keeps asking him to come deeper when he already has his nose on his chest? Then when he does offer it forwards she wont let him.

Yuck!

 

[Clava]

Yes that works now.
Probably not what you want to hear but I found watching that vid quite sad.
What I saw was a beautiful horse being ridden 'by the numbers' with no consideration or understanding of the horse. Rider is totally fixed on whats happening in front of her and seems oblivious to whats going on behind.
There were bits I liked ie at 11:38 for a few seconds and a few more of the same but what I see at those points makes the rest even less watchable.
I watched all the vids so far, really not sure I want to watch any more unless there's a change of rider.
JMHO

The rider really isn't one I would want to ride any horse I owned.

 

[ShadowHunter]

I dont get why she keeps asking him to come deeper when he already has his nose on his chest? Then when he does offer it forwards she wont let him.

Yuck!

Agree with this...
He seems more relaxed at the beginning then things start going downhill IMO. When he's given quite a bit of rein he does begin to relax and looks instantly happier.
Cant really say much more but i don't think dressage is ever going to be his forte.

 

[Mongoose11]

I don't understand why draw reins would be an appropriate thing to try at this stage on a horse that is already BTV, surely they will encourage him to lean and encourage the head carriage that she wants to eradicate. Wouldn't she want to drive him evenly into the bridle through equal engagement of the hindquarters rather than draw reins to stop him falling out through the shoulder? Or is she hoping that the draw reins will allow her to keep an even front, match it with an even behind and hope that it trains his way of going?

See I am trying!

Still don't get her though, he looks confused and rushes every time she clucks at him. It's very irritating.

I think we've all established that I don't have a PRE, I have a cob, a very beautiful and talented...cob! She is built like a brick outhouse and thick through the throat and two years ago had no balance in the school or any understanding of self carriage. Her default was chin to chest, tank, and rush - only she didn't look half as graceful as Armas when he does it. When she went in to training she did a lot of work with no contact at all, a lot of pushing her on and asking her to find her own balance because she sure as hell needed to stop hauling her front end around and leaning on her rider's hands. I desperately want to take the reins away from this rider.

He doesn't look half as unhappy as he did previously, but I still think she is asking too much of him at this stage. We've all established that I know ****** all though!

 

[JFTDWS]

Hmm I thought there was more to like on this occasion.

 

[chocolatepony]

I'm presuming that she is intending to use draw reins (or running reins) to keep him straight rather than pull him deeper. Sort of as stabilisers. That way she can concentrate on getting the push from behind evenly. Will be interesting to see what effect they have!

 

[Armas]

I'm presuming that she is intending to use draw reins (or running reins) to keep him straight rather than pull him deeper. Sort of as stabilisers. That way she can concentrate on getting the push from behind evenly. Will be interesting to see what effect they have!

Indeed that is the hope. However as she stated if it does not work they will be coming of. We shall see tomorrow...

 

[guido16]

But surely if the draw reins are visibly pulling him deeper then they should not be anywhere near him.

I am afraid I think he is doing to much to soon and needs taken back to basics to get him working from behind. Forget the front end, you need to get the back end working consistently first. With his previous issues this may take longer but I wouldnt be messing with the front end just now.

However, I must say, Armas is a wonderful honest horse. You are very lucky.

 

[Marydoll]

Im sorry i see no improvement, in fact i see a step backwards for all the same reasons stated in earlier posts.
What i dont understand is how you dont see it Armas

 

[Armas]

Im sorry i see no improvement, in fact i see a step backwards for all the same reasons stated in earlier posts.
What i dont understand is how you dont see it Armas

I see very well thank you. I have seen the progress today he was much more relaxed and listening and there were some very nice small steps staring. Its a building block. I am that you cannot see those changes.

 

[Allover]

What i dont understand is how you dont see it Armas

These are my sentiments exactly. It is a desperate shame if this really is what people class as dressage training these days. It is stated that Armas has a tendency to over bend as an evasion, with each stride that that horse takes she is asking him to over bend. When he offers a more "natural" head carriage her immediate reaction is to pull him back in. He gets punished when he is trying so hard to do as she asks. She also has poor balance, her reactions are far to slow for him and she is far too tense. Does she watch the videos? Her riding is, if not causing, highlighting the issues Armas already has and are instilling them deeper into his way of going.

 

[Goldenstar]

I don't understand why you would not work to straighten the horse through lateral work and other exercises .
His lack of straightness shows all the time and on the long lines too .

While using a draw rien can help you control the shoulder in this horse I would think he will go 'been there done that ' and tuck in behind them , but as the riders says if it does not work you can take them off.
I know next to nothing about PREs but I would have thought if you concentrated on the lateral movements and rhytmn and straightness this horse would collect very easily.
I still don't get why she lets him run in the trot but that's a personal dislike of mine as I have a bit of a natural desire to let them do that myself and get cross with myself when I do it .
As with the other videos I remain conflicted.
Again thanks for posting.

 

[Frozen Hoof Boots]

I can't see how the use of draw reins is going to help. I personally would go for less emphasis on what's going on in front and get him working from behind and getting his back swinging. I would even consider bitless.

She seems to do very little lateral work. Bending round the leg, spiral in and stretch spiral out, letting him relax would help. Get that back swinging.

The video I thought was the best was with the kid riding round the field. It may have been in a circle on the wrong leg but Armas didn't have his chin tucked in his chest.

 

[PolarSkye]

OK - I have a question (I watched this with the sound off so please excuse me if Virginie explains on the video), but what is she trying to achieve with the rein back? I can see how it could be used to engage his back end, but what I see looks rather hurried and rushed and Armas doesn't really sit and tuck before he goes forward . . . ?

P

 

[TuscanBunnyGirl]

crickey. Nose on chest much poor horse.

 

[Armas]

OK - I have a question (I watched this with the sound off so please excuse me if Virginie explains on the video), but what is she trying to achieve with the rein back? I can see how it could be used to engage his back end, but what I see looks rather hurried and rushed and Armas doesn't really sit and tuck before he goes forward . . . ?

She reins back to help with his hind engagement.

P

crickey. Nose on chest much poor horse.

Yes she has very very strong hands and is hauling the poor horses head right back clearly a case of extreme Rolka best call the RSPCA :rolleyes4::rolleyes4::rolleyes4:

 

[Kat_Bath]

Ive asked a genuine question before now and it's gone unanswered but i still watch these videos with interest. I too am wondering why she doesn't do more lateral work... Doesn't she get boref going round and round the outside?

I can't see how the use of draw reins is going to help. I personally would go for less emphasis on what's going on in front and get him working from behind and getting his back swinging. I would even consider bitless.

She seems to do very little lateral work. Bending round the leg, spiral in and stretch spiral out, letting him relax would help. Get that back swinging.

The video I thought was the best was with the kid riding round the field. It may have been in a circle on the wrong leg but Armas didn't have his chin tucked in his chest.

 

[Allover]

Yes she has very very strong hands and is hauling the poor horses head right back clearly a case of extreme Rolka best call the RSPCA :rolleyes4::rolleyes4::rolleyes4:

Can you really not see it? Would you prefer it was referred to as Long Deep and Round? Whichever way is up it is not a pleasant sight to watch. That girl should be paying you to ride your horse, the amount he could teach her if she would only let him. She gives the reason behind using draw reins as using them to control his outside shoulder, if she was riding the horse better she would have no need for them. She is making the job harder for Armas to make up for her short comings and is teaching the horse only how to do things badly.

 

[Armas]

Ive asked a genuine question before now and it's gone unanswered but i still watch these videos with interest. I too am wondering why she doesn't do more lateral work... Doesn't she get boref going round and round the outside?

She does do lateral work the last few session were in the small arena thus concentrated on collection. This was a couple of sessions a good example that she varies the work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra6hJHVC2i8

 

[Kat_Bath]

I hate answering back and I have to admit I only watched about 8 minutes of that link as my ipod hates youtube, but, she sometimes stays on the same rein for up to 5 minutes and at one speed. I usually watch all of your videos in full so please don't get angry! I cant find where it's said but I'm sure it's Carl Hester who says you should do a minimum of 200 transitions per session. I wonder if somewhere he also says about the amount of time spent on the outside track? I know he likes the three quarter line.
Maybe it's just me but I'm taught in my lessons to come off the track and to do so many transitions. I have to say too that it's good prep for dressage tests (apart from Prelim 7!). I also love variation but maybe that's just my personality type.
Out of interest, what does your indoor school measure?

 

[AmyMay]

It's interesting how he visibly relaxes and lengthens at 15.23.

I'm seeing more now what a tricky little fox he is. He is tense for much of the time, seldom snorts (and when he does it is only just there), and looks to be holding his breath.

He rarely takes the rein forward, because he is so tense, and just tucks himself in. There is seldom a good contact on the rein because of this. The tenser he becomes, the more behind the verticle he goes. It is not the rider. It is him.

I too would like to see far more lateral work. It will help him relax, straighten, stop rushing and lengthen his frame. It will also encourage him to take the contact.

I would not put draw reins anywhere near him. And I think the rider is doing it for your benefit rather than the benefit of the horse.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and there are no short cuts in training a horse. He looks to be becoming hotter, and I would want some of the pressure taken off him to avoid meltdown.

 

[Armas]

It's interesting how he visibly relaxes and lengthens at 15.23.

I'm seeing more now what a tricky little fox he is. He is tense for much of the time, seldom snorts (and when he does it is only just there), and looks to be holding his breath.

He rarely takes the rein forward, because he is so tense, and just tucks himself in. There is seldom a good contact on the rein because of this. The tenser he becomes, the more behind the verticle he goes. It is not the rider. It is him.

I too would like to see far more lateral work. It will help him relax, straighten, stop rushing and lengthen his frame. It will also encourage him to take the contact.

I would not put draw reins anywhere near him. And I think the rider is doing it for your benefit rather than the benefit of the horse.

Rome wasn't built in a day, and there are no short cuts in training a horse. He looks to be becoming hotter, and I would want some of the pressure taken off him to avoid meltdown.

She knows he is tense she can feel his tension however in todays session I commented midway that he seemed much more relaxed. She said to me today that she wants to try some electro therapy over his back to see if that helps relax the muscles.

The use of the draw reins is an experiment to see if it helps. She knows that it may cause him to keep his head BTV if that happens then they will be removed. Did you listen to her reasoning at the end ? Just curious.

What is the harm in trying? I see a trainer who is thinking of different ways of getting him to work in a better frame. There is no replacement for lateral which she does do.

Every one rides & trains in slightly different ways.

When she started training him he was very hot and sweaty at the end of a session. The temperature is now hotter and he is sweating a lot less. That tells me a lot in its self.

 

[Mongoose11]

That he's getting fitter?

What does it tell you?

 

[Suby2]

Why does she move her hands so much? :-(

 

[AmyMay]

I did listen to her reasoning yes. And I'm sorry, but I dont agree with it. A rider of her calibre doesn't need to use draw reins to straighten him, or indeed keep herself straight. Lateral work (when she does more than the odd step of an attempt at shoulder in) will achieve all this - in time.

As for the harm in trying. I simply don't understand why you would.

Clearly Armas is getting fitter, that much is obvious - which iswhy he is cooler at the end of his sessions.