Session 17 warts & all.....

I'm bored, but from interest when Armas was new..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVtRdLC-10
and 3 weeks later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEGz2maCXCk

no noseband, not particulary BTV in the work..

Vids also show training with this lady (from old posts the one that you had early on who had been to cadre noir that Armas went to for a couple of months when he first arrived? or someone else?)
Virginie
young jumping lad
David
Pascual
current lady
oh and team baringer?

It does seem like a lot of different training/riding styles in a year.
 
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Jeepers! That doesn't even look like the same horse in the first video posted above! Green yes, but willing and calm. Bless his cottons!

That rider doesn't have half as much balance as Virginie so I'm wondering at what point he went from green and willing to hot and evasive? As soon as he was asked to work?
 
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That video posted above is a much nicer horse. Looks messy but he looks far more relaxed and calm. What happened?
 
What Billie said. Horse could be rounder in those videos, but he looks green and willing and pretty happy. He's not falling on his face or fussing about the contact.
 
It's interesting. He's forward and bright, and his saddle clearly is flapping up and down on his back. I would guess he became evasive from trying to avoid back pain - I like to look at the "why?" when I'm evaluating a horse. I understand that if you pay a professional to produce results, then that is what they will do their best to achieve, but I do really agree with all those who say that the horse needs to repair the damage slowly and intensive schooling like he is having at te moment is only going to highlight his problems re. pain and not mend them.
 
From watching those videos it's pretty obvious it was nothing the Spanish owners/breeders did to him when ridden that caused him to opt for the BTV as an evasion. When asked to do basics he seems pretty happy, when asked to do more or really alter his way of going he just doesn't look happy anymore.

I'm honestly not all that surprised they gelded him and sold him on, compared to some of Armas Stud's other horses, there's a vast different.
 
Spring Feather said:
No disrespect meant in the slightest but he looks like a generic riding school horse in those videos!
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That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me :)

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field :) Not comparing like with like at all :) In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.
 
milliepops said:
That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me :)

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field :) Not comparing like with like at all :) In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.
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But Armas is clearly happier in that way of riding, which is why he was likely sold as a leisure horse rather than a serious competition prospect. Some horses can and some horses can't. It just seems that James is trying to make Armas into something he isn't, which is making the poor horse tense and shuffly.
 
milliepops said:
That was exactly the phrase I had in my mind! Ask nothing of me... get nothing from me :)

Tbh comparing what he is doing now to those videos is IMO the same as putting Virginie's sessions against the girl cantering bareback around the field :) Not comparing like with like at all :) In those 2 vids linked above the horse is basically at liberty, albeit with tack and a rider on.
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I do agree with your point - when he isn't / wasn't being asked too many questions then he is definitely more relaxed. Why then is this not built on, a gradual process of asking a little more from the relaxed frame over time rather than being pulled/pushed/rushed into doing more complicated work. It is known that horses do not really learn if they are stressed and to me he looks stressed in the more complicated work.

It may take longer to put the building blocks in place but they will stay there rather than teaching a few tricks without the basics being firmly in place.

I'm sorry Armas but I agree with paddy monty - i have said previously that I don't believe this is the right trainer for the horse. If you look up some videos on youtube with the likes of Anja Beran or other similar trainers you will see how relaxed those horses are and how much they are learning and enjoying their work. That type of training is certainly what I aspire to in my own training although I am a long way off, it is a path I intend to learn much more about and to take
 
FlyingCircus said:
But Armas is clearly happier in that way of riding, which is why he was likely sold as a leisure horse rather than a serious competition prospect. Some horses can and some horses can't. It just seems that James is trying to make Armas into something he isn't, which is making the poor horse tense and shuffly.
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I don't really wish to comment on when the horse is happier, I don't believe him to be unhappy as such with what he is doing now and tbf all horses would probably be happiest left to their own devices in a field with some buddies.
At some point, even continuing with the same rider that was in the 2 videos that ester posted, he would reach the stage where he needed to go into the contact properly (although he was 'round' in parts of those it was a hollow shape rather than over the back into a proper connection) and he would also need to learn to become laterally supple and responsive to more refined aids & questions. I also thought he looked a bit uncomfortable in his mouth at times in those, which doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment.

I don't think James is doing anything detrimental to his horse. I don't think he's trying to make him into a GP or high school horse. I think he just needs to get the horse established to the point where he is accepting of the rider in the school work, so that J can then get back on and continue himself.

As I said last night, to my mind Virginie has gone quite some way towards getting that acceptance. (putting aside whatever happened in the 12 months between videos... and remembering the horse that she first sat on, since that was *her* starting point, not the horse in the other videos. None of us have a time machine... nice as that would be... and she can't undo the horse's history, just patch it and build on it as best as she can)


& by patch I don't mean bodge it. I mean she can't *make* him unlearn things or experiences. All she can do it try to mend it in her own way. That's all any of us can do, even if a horse is re-started, you are often gently battling against what it learnt the first time round :wink3:
 
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Billie1007 said:
My addiction to this thread is doing my head in. Can someone force me into cold turkey? Must go and walk the dog!
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Love it I keep walking past the iPad and having a peek,
Don't have time to watch the tape in one go though.
Walk that dog you know you should.
 
milliepops said:
I don't really wish to comment on when the horse is happier, I don't believe him to be unhappy as such with what he is doing now and tbf all horses would probably be happiest left to their own devices in a field with some buddies.
At some point, even continuing with the same rider that was in the 2 videos that ester posted, he would reach the stage where he needed to go into the contact properly (although he was 'round' in parts of those it was a hollow shape rather than over the back into a proper connection) and he would also need to learn to become laterally supple and responsive to more refined aids & questions. I also thought he looked a bit uncomfortable in his mouth at times in those, which doesn't seem to be an issue at the moment.

I don't think James is doing anything detrimental to his horse. I don't think he's trying to make him into a GP or high school horse. I think he just needs to get the horse established to the point where he is accepting of the rider in the school work, so that J can then get back on and continue himself.

As I said last night, to my mind Virginie has gone quite some way towards getting that acceptance. (putting aside whatever happened in the 12 months between videos... and remembering the horse that she first sat on, since that was *her* starting point, not the horse in the other videos. None of us have a time machine... nice as that would be... and she can't undo the horse's history, just patch it and build on it as best as she can)


& by patch I don't mean bodge it. I mean she can't *make* him unlearn things or experiences. All she can do it try to mend it in her own way. That's all any of us can do, even if a horse is re-started, you are often gently battling against what it learnt the first time round :wink3:
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This^^^

Very well put.
 
Don't get me wrong, Armas is a lovely horse and I like him a lot and he is a good horse for what James wants. But that stud turns out some SERIOUSLY nice horses. I'll take this one, please: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lojz1MvAAKg

James' horse isn't quite of the same calibre as that one. I have no doubt that the stud knew this. It's okay. My horse is nowhere near as nice as that, either, but I'm not asking her for passage and canter pirouettes. The trainer is improving Armas' carriage, but the way she is going about it makes me ask, "At what cost?"
 
I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return :)
 
Its a pleasure to watch those earlier video's. Armas looks like a different horse. Yes, there are some problems but all round he looks better. What happened in the 12 months since James?
 
milliepops said:
Well.. in I go again :wink3: with a post long enough to rival one of GG's ;) but I thought there were a lot of very positive moments during this session. The working trot and canter is looking possibly the best it has so far under saddle. He is beginning to look as relaxed and through as he does on the long reins now which is lovely. And so nice to see him returning to that open frame each time as his 'rest' position after doing some harder work.

For me, this session really highlighted where I think this rider has picked up from where David left off. At the end of the BB videos I felt the horse was allowing himself to be steered and the pace walk/trot/canter to be selected, but not a lot more. Where I think this rider has really succeeded is changing the horse's attitude slightly to the point where he is now allowing himself to be *ridden* much more - big steps, small steps, sideways, forward, back - it all looks a lot more accepting. That's quite a big change for me, and an important one because even the basics can't be improved until the horse lets the rider 'in'.

I don't know her intentions, clearly, but using passagey steps and half steps is a good trick in this case because it's something he's found easy almost immediately. So he has quickly learnt to wait but still keep working as she asks him to maintain the activity. Sure, they are not test quality, nor do I believe that is what she is aiming for. But a useful tool to show the horse that he doesn't have to run away from the leg. Something which can then be applied to other work. A roundabout way of achieving that, but it looks like the penny is dropping.

I can also maybe see the logic behind the rather fast trot afterwards. He's probably not a horse that will find extensions easy in the trot. Where she has kept the pressure on in previous sessions while he worked out how to produce those passagey steps, so it could also happen that if he is asked to keep trotting forward into a contact, eventually he may twig and instead of rushing he could begin to push more.
I only mention it because it has been something that has helped my horse to understand what is needed. On a hack, extensions come very easy but in the school she has a mental block. No amount of transitions, lateral work, all the usual prep for extending really made a difference - she needed to run until she pulled into the reins and pushed with her hind legs. not pretty, not classical, but it was how she learnt.

On the subject of showing a horse something in a different way, I thought the running reins were reasonably successful. he did not appear confused or overfaced by them after the first couple of minutes.

re. the walk. I think a chiro visit will be well timed. But the right hind issue is still more apparent when he is not accepting the aids she is giving. When he does, it is much, much less glaring. It looked like baby walk pirouettes that she was working on before each canter transition. To be fair, they haven't done a lot of work on the walk together so he is finding that a difficult question - to allow his body to be placed where she is asking, while still remaining soft and accepting. She's said before that he wants to step out, rather than under with that hind leg and it's not uncommon for the steps to become irregular at that point. (not desirable, but given his history not unexpected either :wink3:).
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this and its something we had to do with bruce and to a lesser degree fig-push forward forward forward until the running comes over the back in to the hand and becomes a push through to the contact and gains cadence an not just a flat run.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return :)
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^^ this^^ I to have lurked but never posted and agree he has lost his sparkle. He seems much more content in the first videos and in the video posted of him being ridden in spain.

However i do agree he doesnt seem right behind? x
 
Forest Fox said:
I am happy to assure you that I am definitely not D-D....Just ask James and he will also assure you .
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Tbh FF all you look like is a silly person who seems to have a bit of crush..

I mean why else would you seek out James' threads then write pointless dribble which you know James will react to giving you that attention you seem to be craving..

Nothing you say is constructive or even well written.. I can only assume the above..
 
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