Session 17 warts & all.....

it's annoying how people with proper questions are being overlooked by bitchy comments

Forest Fox you clearly have been upset by something on one of this threads. But it's probably better if you iron that out by PM
 
I thought a lot of the work looked better. He is much more uphill and in the contact.

But... That's a whole lot of collected work in the last few sessions for a horse who hasn't really been asked to work in that manner before and, on top of that, a horse who has weak coupling and lacks the depth through the loins, huge sloping bum, and well let down hocks you see in horses who excel at that type of stuff and stay sound doing it. He also looked funky behind in the walk and canter pirouettes (well, he never really managed the canter pirouette) on the left rein.
 
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Caol Ila said:
I thought a lot of the work looked better. He is much more uphill and in the contact.

But... That's a whole lot of collected work in the last few sessions for a horse who hasn't really been asked to work in that manner before and, on top of that, a horse who has weak coupling and lacks the depth through the loins, huge sloping bum, and well let down hocks you see in horses who excel at that type of stuff. He also looked funky behind in the walk and canter pirouettes (well, he never really managed the canter pirouette) on the left rein.
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Agree to all. :smile3:
 
I said god knows how many videos ago that the reason that the horse can never truly connect is because he is not sound behind, but I was dismissed. Its fine being aware of your horse having soundness issues and riding him/ managing him accordingly but to expect him to work in the way that he is day in and day out is eventually going to break him.
If you watch your videos , the horse very rarely, if ever, tracks up in any of his trot work. No amount of lateral of lateral work, forward trot, collect trot, passage or draw reins will help him until you solve the soundness issue.

My husband horse had sacroiliac issues among other things, he could not collect or connect. There is simply never enough power.

Forget the contact issue, sort out the unlevel ness, your horse is very very honest and willing but he is shouting at you that he hurts.

I know you will dismiss this, but take a good look at your videos, then look at your videos before the lameness issues and I m sure you will see a difference.

The canter work at the end shows a canter that is typical of sacroiliac or hind limb lameness, he looks like he is about the go,disunited at any point. The canter almost bunny hops behind rather than showing a clear split in the hind legs

The riders position and the way she swaps and changes from sitting to rising to hovering trot tells you she feels he isn't right.

Finally, has your vet seen your horse under saddle? Just wondering as ours looks ok in hand, it doesn't show until he is ridden.
 
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Amaranta said:
Sweeping statement re Spanish horses and their usefulness!

One of mine is Ad Med, will just pop out and tell her that she has odd conformation and poor movement!

Armas is right, it is possible to get Spanish horses from Spain at any level, the Spaniards have also started to geld them as this makes them easier to sell into the UK and USA markets.

Armas may not be GP material, but there is no reason whatsoever why he could not, like any other horse, do a decent Elem test.
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I suppose that's sort of what I don't get although poss because the rider is trying to correct such different attributes- although little cob likes btv too ;). Said little cob -as my first pony- have managed to do a fair elem test and been plenty successful at novice without the need to do such high intensity work. Obv lateral work and collection but all within his physical abilities ie no half steps sort of level and collection not sustained for any sort of length of time etc ( and he's too old to take any further ;) ) I just suppose that this situ with armas is v different to what I know people do with their fun amateur/allrounder horses with regards to schooling.
 
Goingforgold said:
I don't really know what the point is of all these (daily) videos. You say you like the debate but your actions speak otherwise.
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I didn't understand the point either but took James at his word that he was posting so that he could get genuine feedback from HHOers, but as time has gone on I suspect there is a bit of jocularity and jibing going on now. I started having the feeling a little while ago that there may be stupid playground games going on. Post videos on here, snipe and laugh about the comments made here on the private FB group. It's abundantly clear someone is composing responses for James to post on here. I would like to hope this is not the case as that would be childish and silly but I have a strong feeling it is.
 
Goingforgold said:
I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. To be honest it is all very well training the horse up, but I suspect James isn't half the rider this lady is, he needs to be care he doesn't have Armas trained beyond his own capabilities.
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That last sentence is something that does need to be taken into consideration I think.
 
Armas said:
What greats me is statements such as they don't sell PRE's to any one. 99% of studs will sell any horse to any one as long as they have the money.
As Amaranta stated they are now exporting gelded horses to the USA
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And shooting or abandoning more than they sell due to the economic crisis :(
 
amymay said:
And shooting or abandoning more than they sell due to the economic crisis :(
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That sadly is also true, Spain is going through a terrible crisis atm, not unlike ourselves tbh, horses that don't make the grade as breeding animals are no longer saleable and many are now going for meat, again not unlike this country. Tragic.
 
Probably another post to be ignored but it is not Armas I feel particularily sorry for. He is a beautiful animal and for best part of lives a life of luxury.
It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.
 
I've followed these threads, haven't watched all of the videos, haven't read all of the replies. I notice that they always attract people wanting to have a dig and perhaps because James is so willing to fire back it just encourages little arguments.

I haven't commented because I have no experience of PRE horses, there are a lot more knowledgeable people on these threads that are taking a lot of time to respond with incredibly useful information. Perhaps if you were to take more of it on board, instead of countering everything with an excuse, you may be making a little more progress with the horse. He is lovely and I really enjoy the videos where he is with the girl - I think he is a horse in need of a bit more fun - bring him hunting, he would love that ;)
 
Goingforgold said:
I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. To be honest it is all very well training the horse up, but I suspect James isn't half the rider this lady is, he needs to be care he doesn't have Armas trained beyond his own capabilities.
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If this is in fact the case, then all i can say is what a sad person. To feel the need to court so much attention, id suggest, ignore future posts as you would a child behaving in this way. As said in my earler post im out, but felt the need to reply to the suspected then confirmed by pm behaviour of the OP
 
cambrica said:
Probably another post to be ignored but it is not Armas I feel particularily sorry for. He is a beautiful animal and for best part of lives a life of luxury.
It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.
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This is very true. I am in no way qualified to comment on these threads so I have just been lurking, but cambrica, you just hit the nail on the head. However, if it's true that Armas is lame, I feel for him too.
 
cambrica said:
It is Virginie I feel for. Seemingly unaware that every lesson is being put out on a very public forum to have her riding scrutinised and comments made that she is totally unaware of. How many of us would be happy to find out that private lessons were being aired in such a way? Maybe its a case of what she don't know won't hurt. Or maybe she is aware, in which case I bow out.
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My impression was that she was fully aware that this was all public.
 
Yes the trainer is aware. If anyone is worried that she may take offence at something they have said, then maybe they should try to find a way to say the same things in a more polite way.

I'm happy to stand by everything I have said and if there was anything she disagreed with, I guess we'd have a very interesting discussion about it. She's a pro, she's open to all criticism whether she likes it or not...goes with the job.

FWIW, I think she is being very gracious in doing the video comments...a lot of pros would never bother or feel the need...the fact that she does tells me that she at least wants people to understand her methods.
 
Forest Fox said:
There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
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People wonder why I throw my toys out of my pram on occasion. Would you not react to this kind of rubbish?
The trainer is fully aware of the videos hence her comments.
 
lhotse said:
Forest Fox, are you DD????
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I doubt it. D_D could get cross and have spats with James and others, but FF is simply a troll. D_D's points made sense, she just got rather hot-headed in confrontational situations.

Forest Fox doesn't make points to be passionate about. She/he is simply trying to wind people up and cause trouble. I don't believe she is D_D. She's much nastier and best ignored.
 
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Forest Fox said:
There would have been no way that ARMAS would have been sold to a novice unless he was a reject.
Just take a look at the Stud info....
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I have not watched the video as i have not time atm just popped through the posts having coffee .
But feel the need to say calling someone's much loved horse a reject is unpleasant and very bad manners how would you feel if someone said that about your horse.
Unnecessary and a deliberate attempt to hurt and get a angry response from James.
 
FionaM12 said:
I doubt it. D_D could get cross and have spats with James and others, but FF is simply a troll. D_D's points made sense, she just got rather hot-headed and in confrontational situations.

Forest Fox doesn't make points to be passionate about. She/he is simply trying to wind people up and cause trouble. I don't believe she is D_D. She's much nastier and best ignored.
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True but still not convinced, this person seems to have a very personal grudge. Mind you I saw the snide comment aimed at GG about Just Giving and thought she had perhaps reached new depths of horridness!

I have not always agreed with James, in fact I believe I told him not to buy a Spanish horse at all, I also pointed out in the very first video that I did not think the horse was right behind (moved very wide) BUT credit needs to be given where credit is due and no one can doubt that James, a self confessed novice, is trying to learn as much as he possibly can in order to do everything correctly. He has also had a vet treat the problem. I do, however, agree that perhaps he should have more lessons where he is in the saddle.

For those that say that Armas never has fun, you are actually very wrong, James spends many days in the saddle himself simply having fun on this lovely horse, they do beach rides, forest rides and generally let off steam.

My favourite trainer for this horse (and I have made no secret of this either) is David, however he is in Spain so James had to find an alternative and this girl is a good second, there are things I don't like about the way she trains and there are things that I do like. One of the things I do like is that she seems prepared to alter her methods, she has an open mind and is trying her best to understand this horse. PRE's are very different to warmbloods (which is what her experience so far is in) they are hotter, sharper and generally more sensitive, they need to be ridden from the seat and legs and most need a very soft contact.

If I am brutally honest (and James knows just how brutally honest I can be :) ) I also do not think the horse is ready for the more collected work, I would like to see him strengthen over his back before attempting passage etc. If it were me, I would use baby lateral work (shoulder fore for instance) to straighten him and slow him down before attempting anything more complicated.

I HAVE used passage and piaffe to aid collection and it does really help, but the horse I use it with is much more strong and established than Armas is at the moment.

There, see, it is possible to be critical WITHOUT being personal and nasty.
 
Yes it is Amaranta. Where people can do that, their message gets taken on board.

regarding the justgiving thing...I honestly can't post my feelings about that...so I won't.
 
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