Session 17 warts & all.....

_GG_ said:
Well, if he has a friend in me, I have been pretty damn hard on him throughout all the threads. I think most have just been objective.

I understand your point about the horses potential, but I don't personally have a problem in a horse like this being trained enough to make him strong enough for some low level dressage and equitation which is the aim. Also, even a happy hacker, if it is indeed going to be happy, needs to be comfortable and strong enough to hack. The issues this horse has with the weakhoolness need working on to overcome. To just hack and enjoy him as it is would be to willingly allow him to always have a weakness, short of making hacking a job that would do the work outside of the school.

Better to do some work and have a happy, healthy and strong horse at the end than not do the work and leave the horse to have a long term issue.

That's just my opinion of course and I wouldn't approach it the same way as this trainer, but I don't think she's doing too bad a job tbf.
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I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.
 
i am sure this is in one of these ever increasing threads but what is the goal with this horse? is this training for trainings sake or do you want to compete?
 
sussexbythesea said:
I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements.
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Oh I don't agree at all. I've always had the best trainers I could afford, and the best riders on my horses that I could afford to help me with schooling etc.

Nothing has ever given me greater pleasure than seeing my common little cob half passing across the school, ridden by an international gp rider. Did it mean I suddenly couldn't ride one side of her? Of course not.
 
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sussexbythesea said:
I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.
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I agree 100% with you which is why when I back and produce horses for the local sales market where I live, I never produce them beyond the skills of the average local rider. If it did, I'd never bloomin sell anything lol! Where I live, most people are lower level (novice) happy hackers and as such this is what I produce in my selling riding horses. I choose my bloodlines carefully and they usually run true to form in that they are very forgiving and pliable animals who are easy going enough for beginners to muff around on, without those riders getting themselves into trouble. Those buyers don't need something that is beyond their capabilities, they need good steady reliable horses who will look after them. Occasionally I have an odd-ball who is no-way going to be suitable for the local market, they would not be happy in that type of environment, so I generally keep them for myself (which is part of the reason I own so many extra horses *sigh*)
 
The past is the past. We can use it to help us shape the future through maybe gaining a little understanding, but other than that, dragging it up serves no purpose.

I will always try to be honest and objective in my posts. It is nice to see a younger and greener horse in the videos, but there is nothing wrong in wanting this horse to do a bit more. All James wants is to do low level stuff and IMO it is far better that an owner try to ensure his horse works correctly in order to ensure health and wellbeing, than to just allow a horse to just carry on carrying a rider on its back, not with the whole rounded frame.

So...I cannot condemn James for using trainers to try and help the horse work properly. He is capable of it, we can see that if we watch the videos closely. He is not currently capable of maintaining it for long periods. He is not an unhappy horse. To be honest...and I risk getting flamed here, but the older videos show a much less confident horse. I think it's important not to confuse concentration with boredom or unhappiness. In the recent training videos, what is being seen as an unhappy horse, is, IMHO just a horse that is concentrating on the rider. I see this as a good thing. It shows an acceptance of this trainer that wasn't there 17 sessions ago.

Again on the "happy" vein...it can be as soon as within one stressful training session that a horse can show the signs of foreboding/depression/oppression. These signs can usually (caveat being there are always exceptions) be seen in the horse no matter what it is doing.
In an early early video thread, I commented that I believed we would see it in the horse outside of the arena if he became unhappy. Horses that are really being pushed beyond what they are capable of tend to have mental breakdowns and show the signs listed above.

What I see in the horse that is shown playing at home is a carefree horse with not a worry in the world.
Over and above that...in the actual training sessions being posted, I do not see an unhappy horse. I believe this because I see a horse that is relaxed and chilled out in the warm up. Relaxed and chilled out in the breaks he gets and relaxed and chilled out at the end when the trainer is giving her comments at the end.

Over and above that still...in earlier videos, when the trainer stood next to Armas, he would just stand. Now, in more recent videos, he tries to interact with her. He is more animated in his expressions and this to me shows signs of anything BUT unhappiness.

We may or may not agree with things that are happening or being done, but I see little point in looking to the past. I see more benefit being sent the horses way by concentrating on where he goes from here.

I would like to see him get a decent break soon. A good month of just hacking and relaxing away from the school. I have a number of reasons for this. One is that I would like to see him gain a little condition...general condition through good old fashioned hill work. One is that I think that mentally, he would really benefit from being turned away from the training for a short period. He has undergone what is not much different to being broken in. He has had to adjust to a whole new way of being trained and a break can be extremely beneficial. Lastly, I think James could do with a break from slaving away at youtube....lol.

Anyway, my thoughts FWTW
 
ester said:
I'm bored, but from interest when Armas was new..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSVtRdLC-10
and 3 weeks later:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEGz2maCXCk

no noseband, not particulary BTV in the work..

Vids also show training with this lady (from old posts the one that you had early on who had been to cadre noir that Armas went to for a couple of months when he first arrived? or someone else?)
Virginie = a friend who rode a couple of times when he arrived and a friend who I hack with
young jumping lad = My old French trainers son who likes to jump and has entered two competitions in the past.
David = From Sapin
Pascual = A friend who I tried out a couple of times as he trains & owns 15 Iberian horses. I liked his ground work but not ridden work. Hence discounted him as a trainer on the advice of did cortez and Amaranta.
current lady
oh and team baringer? Two friends whose Arena I have use.

It does seem like a lot of different training/riding styles in a year.
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In the last year and a half I have had 1 trainer & his wife and David.
I occasionally allow friends to ride.

I take it non of your friends ever ride your horses?
 
sussexbythesea said:
I'm afraid I can't agree with you here. If you want a horse suitable for a novice rider to do low-level comps and hacking you don't get a professional rider to whizz him up and perform high-level movements. My own trainer has said to me many a time that I wouldn't like to ride the horse she would produce because he would be way more sensitive than I could deal with. I have mostly been able to work with my trainers myself to work my SI horse through his issues at a pace both of us can cope with. I have had at times a professional ride him with my needs in mind and to help address weaknesses as she is less emotional about it and more correct than I could be. However if she rode him every day like that for more than a couple of weeks or even less he simply wouldn't be able to cope and I would have a sore or lame horse on my hands.
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I am thinking perhaps you have merged someone elses views in with mine. I didn't mention in that post anything about high-level movements, my point was simply about making a horse strong enough for low level work. I can't repeat myself in every post I make and as most people are keeping up with these threads, don't feel the need to as most will know what has been said before. If you haven't seen any of my previous posts, then that may be where you are not agreeing.

To clarify, I didn't agree with the choice of this trainer, I have said many times I don't agree with the collected work or intensity. In fact I have said that what I would do myself with the horse would be completely different.

I have also said, only a few pages ago that I agree that there is a concern that this horse will end up trained beyond James' abilities.

That said, he is due to be having lessons on Armas from this trainer eventually so it is something he himself seems to be aware of.

This isn't a defensive post...I actually agree with you. Just clarifying that whilst you disagreed with my post...I think the disagreement was based not on all of the things I have said...but of course, if you hadn't read them you wouldn't know that...if that makes sense.

Crikey...I've even confuddled myself now!!!
 
Armas said:
I take it non of your friends ever ride your horses?
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Actually, no they don't . . . because Kali (I suspect like Armas) is sensitive and doesn't like all and sundry on his back. If I want a sane and happy horse (and don't want the jockey to be on the floor!), I'm better off limiting Kal's jockeys to me and Z (the woman who competes him). We have worked out that even having our trainer on him is a bad idea . . . it's just too many different bottoms/riding styles and is massively counter-productive.

Plus, I would much rather our trainer taught Z and me to ride him, rather than sitting on him herself. She can tell enough about him from handling him on the yard (she and I do each other's horses) and from observing him in the arena/at competitions. She HAS sat on him - twice - but he didn't like it so we won't be doing that again.

Honestly, J, I do think Armas would benefit from a simpler life - if only for a little while. Re-watching the videos from last year were a real eye-opener for me . . . I hadn't appreciated how much he has changed - and not always for the better. I really encourage you to take a step back, revisit your original goals and think hard about what you want for him and you . . .

P
 
amymay said:
Oh I don't agree at all. I've always had the best trainers I could afford, and the best riders on my horses that I could afford to help me with schooling etc.

Nothing has ever given me greater pleasure than seeing my common little cob half passing across the school, ridden by an international gp rider. Did it mean I suddenly couldn't ride one side of her? Of course not.
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Well maybe a hot or warm-blooded horses are different to common cobs?

I'd love to see you on your cob - do show us.
 
i to wouldnt allow anyone else other than me and my sister to ride my horse he is young and easily upset, i prefer to have lessons myself than allow a trainer to ride my lad.

also as an instructor myself i dont generally ride my clients horses unless specifically asked to and i always advise one to one wherever possible especially with young or sensitive horses.

however my friend lest everyone ride her horse who is old and wise and she has no problems but he is most definately not snesitive and used to be in a riding school so is used to it lol

so each to their own, its down to personal preference at the end of the day :)
 
sussexbythesea said:
Well maybe a hot or warm-blooded horses are different to common cobs?

I'd love to see you on your cob - do show us.
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bit uncalled for lol? my neighbour has someone ride her cob who can perform all the dressage movements she loves to watch him, however she is quite capable of riding him herself and competes him regularly with success?
 
Goingforgold said:
Disagree as a lot of warmbloods have a lot of TB blood in them now. You cannot really generalize a horses temperament just by its breeding.
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True, and of course i generalised cobs first. But I think you get my meaning.

Essentially, there's nothing wrong with wanting your horse to be as well schooled as possible - even if it means you yourself can't ride it to that specific level. And providing it doesn't interfere with what you want to do with them I don't see the harm (who would?) I would never discourage an owner for enjoying riding or having their horse ridden to a higher level than generally required.
 
splashnutti1 said:
bit uncalled for lol? my neighbour has someone ride her cob who can perform all the dressage movements she loves to watch him, however she is quite capable of riding him herself and competes him regularly with success?
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Amymay called her own horse a "common cob" I should have put it in quotes to prevent any misunderstanding that I think cobs are inferior in any way because I sincerely do not. :)
 
Goingforgold said:
I agree, and in fact i received a private message off someone saying just that. .
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I could be completely wrong here, but I suspect I know where the suspicion came from!
Something I said elsewhere was copied and pasted verbatim on here. I did not suggest or intend it to happen, but once I (or anyone for that matter) have posted something on the internet, I have no control over whether someone chooses to use it.
I am guilty of speaking to James off this forum - hands up...as are several others, all of whom are trying to help him.
 
amymay said:
True, and of course i generalised cobs first. But I think you get my meaning.

Essentially, there's nothing wrong with wanting your horse to be as well schooled as possible - even if it means you yourself can't ride it to that specific level. And providing it doesn't interfere with what you want to do with them I don't see the harm (who would?) I would never discourage an owner for enjoying riding or having their horse ridden to a higher level than generally required.
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Neither would I but a horse schooled to the sensitivity required for high-level dressage generally will be much more sensitive to any aid deliberate or accidental and to rider balance. Unless of course that it is a "cob" :p :)
 
I let my friends sit on my horse, but she is old and wise and not remotely hot. You're not going to screw her up and she takes her job of keeping people on board very seriously.

I teach basic dressage to people who are more or less happy hackers in order to help them be happier hackers. _GG_ is right -- the horse will be more comfortable, the rider will be more comfortable, and hopefully the longevity of the horse as a productive member of equine society will be increased. We work on straightness, suppleness, and creating a soft, light connection. There is no need to school passage, half steps, half-pass, pirouettes in order to achieve any of this. Obviously, these sorts of movements can be great fun and I ride some of them on my horse for no reason other than I can and I enjoy it (we don't compete), but I would not touch them with a bargepole until I felt that the horse was strong enough to do them safely.
 
sussexbythesea said:
Neither would I but a horse schooled to the sensitivity required for high-level dressage generally will be much more sensitive to any aid deliberate or accidental and to rider balance. Unless of course that it is a "cob" :p :)
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I heard a lovely story many years ago from a woman who used to compete at a very high level in dressage. The horse was retired from competition, and lent to the Master of the local hunt. Apparently it was very amusing to see the horse doing all his tricks (as the Master called them) across the hunting field. Once the correct buttons were found however, he went on to hunt hounds at the front for many years (with only the occasional high school movement chucked in for everyone's entertainment :D).
 
when James starts to ride Armas is the trainer going to video him ? like he is videoing her ? I would have preferred to see more riding by James in the school with the trainer teaching because I'm guessing the aim is to get James riding in school in the same way she is ? without James knowing what to do it's seems like a pretty pointless exercise. If she'll leave and James still has no clue what to do. it's one thing a trainer doing it but it's a whole different ball game doing it yourself.
 
Quite a lot of people ride my horses ,
Both my grooms my ex groom who comes because she likes to ride my friend who has parted with her horse and wants to keep going.
My friend who is a strong and compentant rider who does fast and exciting stuff with me and starts the horses at the hounds .
One of my horses is a very sharp kwpn but my friends can all hack him because he's kind and knows the score he will do a bit in the school with them too but I prefer to there when they do this.
Only I train my horses although my friend has no horses now gets shouted at riding my driving horse because she enjoys it hes fun schooled to elementary and loves giving her lessons.
I believe it is possible for a horse with a nice nature to be ridden by several people and I don't see anything in Armas to make me think that he could not be enjoyed by his owner and trained as long as his trainer keeps this in the back of her mind .
I don't think J means to turn Armas in a high level mega sharp grand prix competition horse I thought ( I may be wrong ) that he wants a well trained fun horse to enjoy and is enjoying everything that's done with the horse and enjoying the journey as it goes along.
I don't see Armas as super sharp will he use his training to dump James ? I would be amazed if he did because he's a kind horse ,will he go for James exactly as he does for the trainer no .
But I see no reason why he can't do both after all it's his job.
 
Paint Me Proud said:
I have watched a couple of your videos but never posted before.

However, I did just go on your youtube account and look back at how Armas was when you first had him.

This video - from 10 months ago- IMO shows a green horse but one with spirit

[youtube]JAyZURYxvGM[/youtube]

But in your recent videos his spark seems to have gone.

I'm not going to comment on the trainer, training methods, lameness etc just purely on the impression I get of Armas, just think he has lost a little bit of his sparkle under saddle. Hopefully it will return :)
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Well I have to disagree, I see a horse hollowing through his back, fussing in the contact and also, at times, coming behind the vertical, and at others above, there is a muscle under his neck that would only get worse if he had continued to be ridden in that way. There is a lot of poll twisting and throwing of the right shoulder too. The rider's hands are awful and move about continually and she also is incapable of feeling that the horse is not straight. The shoulder in (or was it a leg yield - so bad it was difficult to tell!) was completely incorrect and the quarters were in the next county.

I also believe that there was an issue in the SI BEFORE James had him and I have told James this, if you look at the videos of him at the sales yard, he moves very wide behind and refuses to strike off on the correct canter lead, nothing James has done has caused it and, as I have already said, although I do not like everything about Virginie (would still like to see him long and low for much longer), she is at least balanced in the saddle and is not responsible for this horse going BTV.

PRE's when asked to take a contact often respond by going BTV, this horse is a prime example, this is why they respond better to leg and seat rather than hand.
 
Do most of the owners of race horses ride or compete there horses ? I am sure that there are many equestrian sports where the trainer rider and owner are all different.
If I want to train my horses to a good standard and watch him compete because I enjoy it so what. I have lots of fun riding Armas my self I love taking lessons.
What about people that share there horses what happens if the sharer brings on the horse to a higher ability than the owner?? Armas is a very gentle horse I hack him out on occasion with out a saddle my friends daughter jumps a little with him bareback just for fun.
He is a happy content horse that has a good life, in comparison to the life he had in Spain and in comparison to many of the 1000s of horses going to slaughter.
 
Amaranta said:
Well I have to disagree, I see a horse hollowing through his back, fussing in the contact and also, at times, coming behind the vertical, and at others above, there is a muscle under his neck that would only get worse if he had continued to be ridden in that way. There is a lot of poll twisting and throwing of the right shoulder too. The rider's hands are awful and move about continually and she also is incapable of feeling that the horse is not straight. The shoulder in (or was it a leg yield - so bad it was difficult to tell!) was completely incorrect and the quarters were in the next county.

I also believe that there was an issue in the SI BEFORE James had him and I have told James this, if you look at the videos of him at the sales yard, he moves very wide behind and refuses to strike off on the correct canter lead, nothing James has done has caused it and, as I have already said, although I do not like everything about Virginie (would still like to see him long and low for much longer), she is at least balanced in the saddle and is not responsible for this horse going BTV.

PRE's when asked to take a contact often respond by going BTV, this horse is a prime example, this is why they respond better to leg and seat rather than hand.
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Not a trainer just a friend whose arena I use. She rode him once as she had never ridden a Spanish horse.
 
_GG_ said:
I am thinking perhaps you have merged someone elses views in with mine. I didn't mention in that post anything about high-level movements, my point was simply about making a horse strong enough for low level work. I can't repeat myself in every post I make and as most people are keeping up with these threads, don't feel the need to as most will know what has been said before. If you haven't seen any of my previous posts, then that may be where you are not agreeing.

To clarify, I didn't agree with the choice of this trainer, I have said many times I don't agree with the collected work or intensity. In fact I have said that what I would do myself with the horse would be completely different.

I have also said, only a few pages ago that I agree that there is a concern that this horse will end up trained beyond James' abilities.

That said, he is due to be having lessons on Armas from this trainer eventually so it is something he himself seems to be aware of.

This isn't a defensive post...I actually agree with you. Just clarifying that whilst you disagreed with my post...I think the disagreement was based not on all of the things I have said...but of course, if you hadn't read them you wouldn't know that...if that makes sense.

Crikey...I've even confuddled myself now!!!
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Me too :) I think I was referring to this particular trainer as she is doing higher level stuff that is inappropriate in my view and missed where you said you were not in favour of this particular trainers approach. My apologies :o

I think an James should invite over a HHO Crack team of professionals - trainers, farrier, chiro, physio, vet in exchange for a nice holiday in his lovely Chateau :)
 
Armas I was only listing re the youtube vids to try and work out how Armas had got from how he was after arriving at you (indicating that the spanish riding did not have him btv) to how he is today and therefore who had been involved. I also stumbled across an old thread of yours from June last year while looking for something else which said about the 2 months training for you and him when he arrived and I realised I had forgotten about that - and it just made me wonder why, when you posted that that rider suited him so well then we had moved on to different trainers- I had actually forgotten what he looked like then but did not remember him being btv in the video where you tried him.

I'm all for horses being trained to use their back's properly so they are doing less damage to themselves when being ridden- I know that my older chap is certainly more supple/better/more comfortable when in a certain amount of schooling work rather than just hacking- I am interested to see if that is achieved at the end of all this.

Fwiw yup anyone can ride mine! He has a local fan club and everyone knows they are welcome to have a hack, including a collection of grandchildren from the bungalows next to our field. But, although he isn't hot and doesn't come across at particularly sensitive (probably more than I immediately think of him as though due to the welshness) when we were competing/trying to progress in dressage/jumping he was only ridden by myself or my instructor so as not to muddy the waters/confuse the issue - as I wanted him to know my aids (they aren't 'incorrect' but likely subtley different to other's) and trainer would usually only ride him when we were particularly struggling with something and she was more able to explain it to him and then teach me how- this is where I think what you are doing is very different and as I have said before I struggle to get my head round it.

Now he is more frequently ridden by my mum and my sister, and has acted as a bit of a dressage schoolmaster for both- it's taken them a while to find all the buttons and quite how to press them ;) but they are there :).
 
amymay said:
I heard a lovely story many years ago from a woman who used to compete at a very high level in dressage. The horse was retired from competition, and lent to the Master of the local hunt. Apparently it was very amusing to see the horse doing all his tricks (as the Master called them) across the hunting field. Once the correct buttons were found however, he went on to hunt hounds at the front for many years (with only the occasional high school movement chucked in for everyone's entertainment :D).
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lol must have been amusing to see:D
 
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