Session 29 hot hot hot

Armas

Armas

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Todays session was interesting after 15 mins lunging he was nice and calm and well warmed up so we thought. If only that was the case he rather hot to trot today. Great if you are trying to do extended trot but not if you want collection.
Any way Ill let you make up your own minds.

[video=youtube_share;adl9cCrq0E4]http://youtu.be/adl9cCrq0E4[/video]
 
I'm sorry I try to see some sort of positive every time. I'm still not seeing it. there's points in this where she appears to be tilting back pulling him in. yes at points he is putting himself BTV but not for the full 39.19 whether intended or not this rider is not helping with him being BTV if anything she's encouraging him. She needs to respond to him when he wants to stretch. she just doesn't seem to read him properly just carries on blindly
 
Haven't commented before but have watched most of the video's and can see a massive improvement overall from that horrible first session, Armas looks much less tense even though he is still BTV at times. I'm still not wonderfully keen on some of your trainers methods though.

Loving the matchy matchy too. :D
 
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Purple18 said:
I'm sorry I try to see some sort of positive every time. I'm still not seeing it. there's points in this where she appears to be tilting back pulling him in. yes at points he is putting himself BTV but not for the full 39.19 whether intended or not this rider is not helping with him being BTV if anything she's encouraging him. She needs to respond to him when he wants to stretch. she just doesn't seem to read him properly just carries on blindly
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I'll take my hat off to you if you really watched the whole thing! A nice enough little horse, constantly being 'twiddled' BTV - and not coming through. I'm not sure what the point is of putting up these videos - because they're NOT great publicity for the 'trainer'!
 
He seemed to take charge of the session today. Armas doing a "this is how I do it" Whhhhhhheeee:D
I'd personally be concerned about the reason for the amount of resistance he was showing today and his kicking at her leg. At times he looked very uncomfortable behind I though.
Also am of the view that if the horse gives the wrong answer then you are not asking the question correctly.
I don't like her riding any more than I did in her first session. :(
 
JanetGeorge said:
I'll take my hat off to you if you really watched the whole thing! A nice enough little horse, constantly being 'twiddled' BTV - and not coming through. I'm not sure what the point is of putting up these videos - because they're NOT great publicity for the 'trainer'!
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started video as I typed posted then and then carried on watching but from the previous ones he will be BTV in every video I could say that before I'd even finished because it's the same in every one of these videos.
 
I'm really not sure how some can still be saying there's zero improvement in this horse?!

I haven't watched them all, tbh there to long for me and not being rude I can't be asked to watch start to finish, but comparing the first vid to now there is a big improvement I think..

Looking much better in my opinion.
 
risky business said:
I'm really not sure how some can still be saying there's zero improvement in this horse?!

I haven't watched them all, tbh there to long for me and not being rude I can't be asked to watch start to finish, but comparing the first vid to now there is a big improvement I think..

Looking much better in my opinion.
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I watched the first couple - and it was just a green horse. Now it's a green horse who is moving badly (look at the hind leg in the canter - it's half a mile behind him!) What he's learned hasn't been good!
 
Hate her hands the whole way through. Collection doesnt come from the hand, it comes from the seat and leg
 
There is improvement from the first video. The rider still doesn't ride him well though. At the beginning when he's stretching down I think she'd do better to ask for half a circle of trot on a long rein then back to walk. Instead she gathers him up before the trot work. I think walk/trot/walk on a long rein while he's stretching will be better for him.

Also in canter she seems to spin/twist her pelvis which in turn ends up twisting her upper body... this then affects her hands.

Just my opinion though, Armas is still stunning but I think would benefit from a different rider.
 
I'm 100% not qualified to comment on the riding though my personal unqualified eye does cringe sometimes at the riders hands but perhaps thats because I am used to seeing a higher more close together hand position

I have to say that Armas is looking much fitter and stronger. In that video for the first time I felt the rider was enjoying herself, it looks like a rider and her horse rather than a rider on a horse (if that makes sense)

I think this lady has put up with a lot of criticism if she has been keeping up with these threads but I do think in time she will actually come out on top.

I do wonder if J had not told us her name/connections and set everyone Googling at the start if these threads may have gone in a different direction
 
Ok as ever I am conflicted all started fine but I hated seeing him resisting and kicking at her it upsets me a great deal if I push mine to doing something like that I think that I always feel I missed them telling me .
That right hind leg was finding the canter exercise very hard .
I have no sound on it for some reason so couldnot near the comments.
If he where mine I would reduce the number of sessions and do more walking exercise in between .
There has to be something in it for the horse if you loose their good will there's very little point in it all.
 
Credit where credit is due she did give him a lot more down time today and a couple of times she even gave him his head, he also came above the vertical at least twice (not counting the spooky moments) :) It was also good to see her stop when she did, I was getting a bit concerned it was going to go boobs up!

Unfortunately she has made a very nice horse look ordinary (I actually can't believe I used that word when describing Armas in motion). He just looks hacked off and frustrated in the canter work and has no idea what she wants from him.

He was not moving to well in the video, might be worth looking back over the first few minutes of the previous sessions and seeing whether lunging can send him a bit "off"?

On the plus side he has shown us 2 new evasions today!
 
In your last video showing him running free with his little friend he lifts up and through his shoulders and moves better behind. I'm not saying it's all the rider because getting him from BTV is easier said than done. Beautiful horse :)
 
Purple18 said:
I'm sorry I try to see some sort of positive every time. I'm still not seeing it. there's points in this where she appears to be tilting back pulling him in. yes at points he is putting himself BTV but not for the full 39.19 whether intended or not this rider is not helping with him being BTV if anything she's encouraging him. She needs to respond to him when he wants to stretch. she just doesn't seem to read him properly just carries on blindly
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Just as a matter of interest. How do you watch a 40 minute video,which was posted at 5.51, and post a critique at 6.14?
 
T is for transition. The most basic tool in the education of a horse. Is there a reason to keep the horse in canter so long ?

I know very little, but lessons I have had or watched never allowed the horse to plough on incorrectly. Transitions or other exercises would be used to help the horse achieve balance.

I spent a whole hour in walk with the late Mrs Sivewright and her comment of 'the walk has to be up and through before we move on' has always been remembered.
 
Purple18 said:
started video as I typed posted then and then carried on watching but from the previous ones he will be BTV in every video I could say that before I'd even finished because it's the same in every one of these videos.
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Auslander said:
Just as a matter of interest. How do you watch a 40 minute video,which was posted at 5.51, and post a critique at 6.14?
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^^
I think my quote above you your answer :)
 
Armas,just curious (and I apologise in advance if this has been asked&addressed in previous threads) but does his saddle always slip to the right,or just in left lateral or left circle flatwork?
And does it slip when other people ride him,or just this
trainer?
And did it always slip,or is it a recent thing?
These are not loaded questions-just noticed her correcting the slip&was curious:)
 
AdorableAlice said:
T is for transition. The most basic tool in the education of a horse. Is there a reason to keep the horse in canter so long ?

I know very little, but lessons I have had or watched never allowed the horse to plough on incorrectly. Transitions or other exercises would be used to help the horse achieve balance.

I spent a whole hour in walk with the late Mrs Sivewright and her comment of 'the walk has to be up and through before we move on' has always been remembered.
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I did see her do a lot of transitions within the pace today though. On and back in the canter is a transition, for example, and he was looking more and more through each time. Each change of position in the lateral work is a kind of transition IMO. He was a tense little ball today so was never going to do his best work but I thought she was pretty diplomatic by riding him forward much more than was probably planned - giving him something to do with all of that tension rather than just screw him up smaller and shorter. There were a few steps in the canter where he really let go which I thought was progress considering how he came out.

I am also not that concerned by the resistance he shows *when* he is regular behind - I don't really agree that if a horse answers the question wrong then we have asked it incorrectly - they don't automatically know the answer and will make a mistake sometimes. You only have to think of a newly broken horse IMO - they will answer with a dozen different replies until hitting the right one sometimes.
One thing I do like about her is she has a little giggle when he overreacts then asks again calmly. He has consistency and time to work out the question.

Still not *perfect*... but I do think they are getting it together :)
 
Purple18 said:
^^
I think my quote above you your answer :)
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Not really. I don't really see the point of posting a critique of this particular video, based on what you've seen in previous videos. Imagine how silly you would feel if they had a blinding flash of inspiration at 27 mins, and Armas started going like a dream!!
 
I am not an expert but there were a few things I noticed about this video (again I didnt watch the whole thing as i dont really want to give this video 39 mins of my life :) )

1) the arena surface looks to hard
2) her reins are too long which is exaggerated as she is constantly pulling backwards, rather than pushing him forwards from behind. Agree with others about the hand position.
3) was he warmed up before this video was taken? As she was asking for lateral canter work 7 mins into this video. i think that is way too short- and no stretches before this was started. She does also just seem to cantering around and around 7 mins in rather than short bursts with stretches etc inbetween.

I am not an expert, these are just my observations. feel free to correct me. :P
 
I canter a fair bit too, (because this is what we need to work on) but i tend to give frequent trotting/long rein stretching breaks after he has done an exercise a few times rather than just go round and round
 
Auslander said:
Not really. I don't really see the point of posting a critique of this particular video, based on what you've seen in previous videos. Imagine how silly you would feel if they had a blinding flash of inspiration at 27 mins, and Armas started going like a dream!!
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if I had I would have made another comment about it :wink3:
 
I also wondered what the arena surface is-Armas' footfalls sound like a horse clip clopping on a road,tho it looks like sand...extremely hard sand?!?;)
 
Venevidivici said:
I also wondered what the arena surface is-Armas' footfalls sound like a horse clip clopping on a road,tho it looks like sand...extremely hard sand?!?;)
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Soft sand and prior to every ridden session he is lunged for about 15 mins to warm him up. Lunging includes lots of transitions.
 
milliepops said:
I don't really agree that if a horse answers the question wrong then we have asked it incorrectly - they don't automatically know the answer and will make a mistake sometimes. You only have to think of a newly broken horse IMO - they will answer with a dozen different replies until hitting the right one sometimes.
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I've been itching to post that for a while now but I was afraid of getting jumped on so I'm glad you did :)

'the horse will do it if the rider asks correctly' (or words to that effect) is something that is stated a lot on this forum and it always puts a strange image in my head of foals sitting out in the field reading a book on rider aids in dressage. A horse doesn't know the aids already, you have to train them, and usually those aids are pretty crude to start off with with the aim of them becoming more and more refined over years of schooling.

Obviously there are riders that make it easier for a horse to understand and learn, but that's very different to saying that if you are using the 'correct' aids you will automatically get the right response.
 
DabDab said:
Obviously there are riders that make it easier for a horse to understand and learn, but that's very different to saying that if you are using the 'correct' aids you will automatically get the right response.
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Yes, dead right IMO.:) And I wish my horse had studied the book of dressage as a youngster!

Nothing wrong with either side making a mistake every now and then either, it's all part of the process of having 2 bodies that speak a different language trying to work together. I think she deals with mistakes or miscommunications in a pretty fair way, regardless of what you think of the rest of her approach :)
 
Is it just me that wants to get on Armas, sit with hands out my crotch, with shortish reins, put my leg on and see if he goes into the contact and brings his head up?

James - having had a PRE with the same tendencies I really really would love to see her try this! I know how he will feel, like sitting on a cloud that you could canter all day like that- but id really love to see her go back to halt/walk/ trot and get him up in the front. He's doing some cool dude moves but working incorrectly whilst doing them:...

I really love this horse James, he has so much potential.
 
It was my understanding that Armas was not being asked to do anything he'd not previously done with this trainer. I'm sure we are all well aware that horses have to learn to connect the various aids used with the required response. But how nice it would be if they all came with suitably marked buttons. " press button C for canter" ;) :D
and before anyone comments, no I couldn't do better than the rider. However I'm not setting myself up as a trainer and if I was paying someone to ride a horse I'd be expecting a more willing and improved horse by now.
I know that opinions are very split on this so looks like we will all have to agree to disagree. I am learning a huge amount from watching the videos though so thank you James. :)
 
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