Session 29 hot hot hot

TrasaM said:
It was my understanding that Armas was not being asked to do anything he'd not previously done with this trainer.
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For me I think this is the point on which we will agree to disagree :)
Yes, he could walk/trot/canter and do some sideways before in some form of "outline". But I think what I have seen her trying to chip away at (putting aside how successful we may all think she has been so far.. it's a long journey) is his rideability, willingness, softness & acceptance in his whole body, and working towards throughness.

I've said it before but in the BB videos he looked like he was allowing the rider to direct him in terms of which gait he was in and the direction his feet were going in, but what has begun to really change here is that he is letting the rider "in" much more, *mentally* as well as physically. BB looked like he daren't touch the horse at times, in case it blew up.

This rider has never really backed off from that and that's the bit that I think is so positive - even when he is objecting, she is insisting that he waits for her and accepts the aids. Sometimes this looks messy and the contact is often a casualty. But when you consider that he will be returning to a relatively novice rider (sorry J :wink3:) in terms of flatwork schooling then it makes sense to me for the horse to learn to accept the rider FULLY as a priority. Only then will James be able to carry on what has been achieved so far IMO :)

So there's a subtle difference in what he is doing with her, compared to what he has done in the past :)
 
I cant watch video as iphone not playing ball and i certainly dont have time to watch it all. I just dont understand why you post videos ask what people think and never take anything on board? :s
 
milliepops said:
For me I think this is the point on which we will agree to disagree :)
Yes, he could walk/trot/canter and do some sideways before in some form of "outline". But I think what I have seen her trying to chip away at (putting aside how successful we may all think she has been so far.. it's a long journey) is his rideability, willingness, softness & acceptance in his whole body, and working towards throughness.

I've said it before but in the BB videos he looked like he was allowing the rider to direct him in terms of which gait he was in and the direction his feet were going in, but what has begun to really change here is that he is letting the rider "in" much more, *mentally* as well as physically. BB looked like he daren't touch the horse at times, in case it blew up.

This rider has never really backed off from that and that's the bit that I think is so positive - even when he is objecting, she is insisting that he waits for her and accepts the aids. Sometimes this looks messy and the contact is often a casualty. But when you consider that he will be returning to a relatively novice rider (sorry J :wink3:) in terms of flatwork schooling then it makes sense to me for the horse to learn to accept the rider FULLY as a priority. Only then will James be able to carry on what has been achieved so far IMO :)

So there's a subtle difference in what he is doing with her, compared to what he has done in the past :)[/

While I understand and accept that of course the horse must accept the rider I do feel I would not have been happy with that session if that was my horse .
There is no point on my opinion to push a horse to where it resists as Atmas did yesterday .
He had worked extremely well and tried hard in the session the day before and hard the exercise were he kicked off is extremely hard for him he was in an uncertain frame of mind before she started .
In terms of the gymnastics of the exercise she could have chipped away at it with leg yield across the school to make it easier on him.
I think this work schedule is pretty tough on a nine year old who has a lot of water under the bridge I would be doing more work outside the school with loosening him and relaxing the mind as the aim.
I don't think this is a critiism of the rider she is brought the horse to work so she works him .
If a horse is going to come willingly and happily to the school for whole of it's life you need to take a lot of care with them .
As you say this a long journey horses need ridden down time .
As ever just my musings .
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I wish she would stop picking on the inside rein... if she wants to loosen him up on the inside rein, atleast do it correctly and take the hand away from the neck...

Armas really want to stretch out and relax, but she just won't give. Watched every session, there is improvement, but there would of been more if she would let him stretch.
 
Goldenstar said:
While I understand and accept that of course the horse must accept the rider I do feel I would not have been happy with that session if that was my horse .
There is no point on my opinion to push a horse to where it resists as Atmas did yesterday .
He had worked extremely well and tried hard in the session the day before and hard the exercise were he kicked off is extremely hard for him he was in an uncertain frame of mind before she started .
In terms of the gymnastics of the exercise she could have chipped away at it with leg yield across the school to make it easier on him.
I think this work schedule is pretty tough on a nine year old who has a lot of water under the bridge I would be doing more work outside the school with loosening him and relaxing the mind as the aim.
I don't think this is a critiism of the rider she is brought the horse to work so she works him .
If a horse is going to come willingly and happily to the school for whole of it's life you need to take a lot of care with them .
As you say this a long journey horses need ridden down time .
As ever just my musings .
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Oh I do agree, please don't misunderstand me, I wasn't really referring to this session specifically, more a general point about why I think her approach to ALL of the work she has done has been a progression from what he did before.

James knows my own feelings on his regime with this rider and it's not how I train my own horse (she does 2 days on, one day off schooling as a rule with hacking etc mixed in throughout the week. This situation is different though :wink3:). All that aside, as a general point I do think there are some times when you do have to meet resistance head on. You can try different ways of addressing it, but to meet a problem and then back away because it's too difficult, feels ugly or the horse gets in a muddle would not be helpful *in general*.

I don't really want to comment on him kicking out at her leg. I suspect it's only really possible to tell why he's doing that from being there in the arena at the time :) But what was good to see was that he did settle and understood the exercise after a couple of repetitions.
 
I've also seen improvement, not there yet, still working towards it. what I thought was interesting today was seeing Armas's personality. He's a clever, hot and tricky horse with a bag full of evasions. I sometimes read the comments here and it's almost as if everything is the rider's responsibility but riding is a partnership and tbh I feel it's unfair to lay the blame always on the rider. Some horses are just more difficult than others and I think Armas is one of them. I'm not saying the trainer is perfect, who is, but she's doing an OK job. In the Carl Hester video link posted on the previous thread, Carl describes Donald as very naghty at 3 (when he bought him) and still very naughty at 6. If he'd been posting on here during that period I think lots of people would have told him he was clearly doing something wrong or the horse was lame! A previous post noted that the trainer had made Armas much more rideable for his owner, which in itself is an achievement. However, personally, I'd do less school work and give the horse more fun and take everything more slowly.
 
I am not a rider who backs off from meeting unacceptable behaviour head on however when I commented saying it will interesting to see the next session after the previous one what we saw in this session is sort of what was back of my mind .
He tried very hard in the previous session , he would probally have benefitted from an easy stretching bending session rather than an other full on one.
 
I wish she would allow with her hands. At 35 when she "lets" him have his head he snatches and seems to be wanting very much to stretch his neck. I'm not a very good rider but that makes me sure that he is not putting his head btv all by himself!!! She has a nice seat and position though and I'm sure she's much better than me, but she doesn't seem to be in a partnership with Armas? Just my personal opinion but I think he perhaps needs a different trainer altogether - that's not a reflection on her at all, I don't really know how to put it but maybe he needs a more understanding, gentler rider (not giving him an easy time or anything but just being very quiet and relaxed). In her defense is she just training the horse the way the owner wants to see him? eg overbent and doing "fancy" stuff? I haven't read all the posts regarding his training (there are a few!) so I am just wondering on this one?
 
HBrae2 said:
I wish she would allow with her hands. At 35 when she "lets" him have his head he snatches and seems to be wanting very much to stretch his neck. I'm not a very good rider but that makes me sure that he is not putting his head btv all by himself!!! She has a nice seat and position though and I'm sure she's much better than me, but she doesn't seem to be in a partnership with Armas? Just my personal opinion but I think he perhaps needs a different trainer altogether - that's not a reflection on her at all, I don't really know how to put it but maybe he needs a more understanding, gentler rider (not giving him an easy time or anything but just being very quiet and relaxed). In her defense is she just training the horse the way the owner wants to see him? eg overbent and doing "fancy" stuff? I haven't read all the posts regarding his training (there are a few!) so I am just wondering on this one?
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This horse is BTV on his own it's a habit learnt long ago.
Obviously I have never seen the horse but I suspect it's a case of no contact or some contact and BTV.
This rider actually is understanding I think and she has build up a rapport with the horse .
 
Well I do vaguely remember a clip of him clearly unfit running round on the lunge not really doing anything .
He was certainly tight in the neck and BTV with Mr BB.
 
Yup, there were a couple of trainers pre BB who rode him and he wasn't btv then although granted the questions asked were different. I only went looking because I didn't remember him being so BTV when he arrived and wondered if I was mistaken as everyone kept saying it was an old ingrained evasion- and if it is we aren't talking years worth at the least ;)
 
Personally I'd stop this intense schooling for a while. Get him out hacking for 6 months. Various terains, up hills, down hills, all paces (and variations in the pace), do lateral work while out, maybe give him a good blast. Be wild and jump a log or two :) Go out alone and in company to build his confidence and become relaxed in all environments. Don't be fixated by schooling in circles. Have some fun and let him have some fun and relax. He does seem a bit tense. Plenty of turnout time with his super cute buddy and take the pressure off so he can "unlearn" being tense. I'm not entirely convinced he'll be working "with you" when he finishes with this trainer.
 
I don't know but I would speculate this was ingrained young in Spain when the horse was started I don't know the horses history but most of the PREs I have seen have all the tricks no basics .
And before any one gets upset I know that won't be every one and every yard.
I am sure Armas will go differently with a rider not asking for any contact but to Armas contact and BTV seem to be the same thing.
Having said that I see real improvements in the BTV yes he's stil BTV but at times he almost is not and that's progress.
 
Armas,I should qualify (as you didn't comment on it) that I asked not because of saddle fit but because my horse's saddle started to slip (always to same side) and we found he had inflammation of the stifle cartilage. Once treated,slippage got less but it wasn't until he got completely fit (and learned to use that leg properly again and bring it through as he had before,which came about thru lots of hill work) that slippage stopped. :)
 
I'm a little disappointed that after the brilliant session the day before another full on session was done. Personally I would've chosen a hack or a soft, stretch session....or in this trainers case a stretch session on the long lines (Aramas really seems to enjoy that work)
I mentioned on a previous thread that he is a 'busy' horse who needs to be kept mentally channelled vita bit too much will set him back in terms of his tightness/tension. I suspect this is very different from the warm bloods this rider is used to who respond better to 'consolidation' of a good session.
I really don't envy the task this rider has with this horse (not helped by the HHO experts chiming in....me including ;) )

Personally I'd love to see Princesssp44rkle on this horse. Her videos & pictures show a lovely, soft, empathetic rider.....it's a shame she's in a different country :D
 
rachaelstar said:
I cant watch video as iphone not playing ball and i certainly dont have time to watch it all. I just dont understand why you post videos ask what people think and never take anything on board? :s
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That statement is actually wrong I take on plenty on board have have made certain changes at the suggestion of some members. It just makes me laugh at comments like this.


oldie48 said:
I've also seen improvement, not there yet, still working towards it. what I thought was interesting today was seeing Armas's personality. He's a clever, hot and tricky horse with a bag full of evasions. I sometimes read the comments here and it's almost as if everything is the rider's responsibility but riding is a partnership and tbh I feel it's unfair to lay the blame always on the rider. Some horses are just more difficult than others and I think Armas is one of them. I'm not saying the trainer is perfect, who is, but she's doing an OK job. In the Carl Hester video link posted on the previous thread, Carl describes Donald as very naghty at 3 (when he bought him) and still very naughty at 6. If he'd been posting on here during that period I think lots of people would have told him he was clearly doing something wrong or the horse was lame! A previous post noted that the trainer had made Armas much more rideable for his owner, which in itself is an achievement. However, personally, I'd do less school work and give the horse more fun and take everything more slowly.
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He does have a bagful of evasions but the trainer is getting to grips with them and starting to work them out. In regards to less schooling he has the whole week of we will just be hacking out.

ester said:
Yup, there were a couple of trainers pre BB who rode him and he wasn't btv then although granted the questions asked were different. I only went looking because I didn't remember him being so BTV when he arrived and wondered if I was mistaken as everyone kept saying it was an old ingrained evasion- and if it is we aren't talking years worth at the least ;)
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He was BTV with BB a lot of the time.

HBrae2 said:
Personally I'd stop this intense schooling for a while. Get him out hacking for 6 months. Various terains, up hills, down hills, all paces (and variations in the pace), do lateral work while out, maybe give him a good blast. Be wild and jump a log or two :) Go out alone and in company to build his confidence and become relaxed in all environments. Don't be fixated by schooling in circles. Have some fun and let him have some fun and relax. He does seem a bit tense. Plenty of turnout time with his super cute buddy and take the pressure off so he can "unlearn" being tense. I'm not entirely convinced he'll be working "with you" when he finishes with this trainer.
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We do our fair share of hacking. He is being schooled now and changing that to what you suggest would be counter productive and a step backwards.

ester said:
I'd show you the videos GS but they are now set to private.
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I had to make all my videos private as a certain banned member & her cronies were posting them on other media platforms and then running critics on them and being extreme rude and personal.
 
I disagree that James hasn't taken on board suggestions made here. Off the top of my head I can remember the removal of the flash strap, he's also discussed what bit Armas is in with members.
He has also shown that he has discussed HHO queries (the use of collection etc) with the trainer.

Just because some HHO members don't like this trainer & don't think he should carry on using her but he does like her & wants to continue using her doesn't mean he is ignoring comments...his horse, his choice! I do wish some people would stop being so intent on dissing James & this trainer but enjoy the videos for what they are an interesting catalogue on the schooling of a tricky horse!
. Mind you some of the 'interesting' suggestions I've heard spouted on these threads as advice I'd choose to ignore if I'm honest :D
 
By posting these videos, James (I am assuming that's the owner as I don't know anything about this horse) is inviting opinions on his horse and trainer. Of course everyone has different opinions and if you didn't want to hear them then you wouldn't post a video on a public forum. But just because I would do something differently doesn't mean that I am right (or wrong either). We all have different ways of schooling our horses and opinions are valid when invited (in this case by posting a video). I think the vast majority of people are just trying to be helpful and giving their point of view. Ultimately of course James can do whatever he wants and he has a lovely horse. I don't think anyone would say otherwise and why would people be intent on "dissing" him? I certainly am not in any way.
 
I still think he is doing far too many intense sessions without enough break in-between. How many sessions does Armas have a week with this trainer? Isn't this the third video in three days? Apologies if that's wrong, but it seems to be one after the other. I notice that Armas is uncomfortable and tense through many of the videos you post, and god bles him he still tries his absolute hardest, even though he is finding it very difficult! ...The Iberian breed are extremely willing and will try there absolute best, but if you break them and they will never forgive you! ...I don't see the rush in all of this, or atleast the rush in how many sessions you can fit in in a week!?
 
I know he was BTV with BB, it was before that I was referring to, given it seems to be often blamed on his spanish upbringing ;)
 
His average week is 5/6 days work. This is a mixture of long and ridden work. Session vary in there intensity and type of work.
For example this week was 4 days of ridden work and one day long reining.
Next week will be no ridden training just hacking and lunging.
 
Glad his getting an easy week next week , are you going to get going on the lessons on him soon James ?
And if no session next week I' ll get some cupboards tidied or something.
 
Goldenstar said:
Glad his getting an easy week next week , are you going to get going on the lessons on him soon James ?
And if no session next week I' ll get some cupboards tidied or something.
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Sorry to disappoint there will be no more videos apart from todays, which improves on yesterdays work until the 25th of September. Armas has next week of then I am going on holiday to the UK & Egypt. I shall be doing lessons with him upon my return.
 
So cuboards it is or perhaps all the stuff that appeared in the utility room .
Enjoy your holiday and stay out of trouble in Egypt and the UK for that matter.
 
I must see things funny as I think she rides him rather well. I haven't watched any other videos and only dipped in and out of this one (have watched about twenty minutes of it I guess but in bits) but I certainly think she is working hard to stop him dropping BTV. She certainly does a much better job than I could. I don't know that I'd even much fancy a sit on Armas, never mind trying to convince him to see things from my POV!
 
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