Shame on you H&H!

combat_claire said:
I'll play devil's advocate here. You object to the use of the whip in racing so presumably you consider yourself to be a fair and humane individual. Yet you freely admit to loving and watching a sport where on average 166 horses die taking part in each year. I'd be really interested to know how you can square this in your mind.

For the record I like racing, I watch it and bet on it and realise that accidents do happen. But 467 horses dead or destroyed following serious injury during racing (which appears to exclude fatalities during point to point meetings) between the 13th March 2007 and yesterday seems to be a very high price to pay.
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I wrote this earlier this year in response to a query elsewhere. I've doctored it slightly to make it more current.

The average on the track according to the AA site below is 165 a year. However......... it has to be taken proportionally......... this is the site set up by the Animal aid eejit that manages to link every equine disaster to horseracing, inc Jamie Gray......... This guy finds every horse that dies, he is obsessed with racing being 'cruel'.
I have no idea how many horses run every year, but it's a small percentage of fatalities to runners.

Taking a day in January as an example. It was an extreme day, as two horses died, at different tracks. Both suffered injuries on the flat. Out of 185 runners, 2 fatalities. There are that number of horses running somewhere most days, and the previous fatality was the 16th, ten days previously. So statistically that could be 2 fatalities in 1665 runners, or one horse per 832 runners.

Yesterday at Cheltenham, 129 horses ran. 6 fell, one sadly died. That is not a normal percentage, that's high, but it could so easily have been none, it's the nature of the fall that killed him.

http://www.horsedeathwatch.com/

On this list is a horse that died. She was owned by one of my closest friends. She was home bred, and hugely loved, and was running in a bumper (NH flat race), her second ever race, when she lost her action. The jockey pulled her up immediately, my friend ran down the track to her, and her hind fetlock had broken. My friend got there in time to give her a hug and a kiss before the vet dispatched her. She was unaware, and in no pain. She had the most wonderful life she could hope for, and never wanted for anything.

So when a horse like her is described as raced to death, I want to spit on him.
 
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Thanks Caledonia, useful to see those stats put in context. I am by no means anti-racing and not a huge fan of Animal Aid - interesting to see they distort the facts on racing as much as they do hunting.

I hadn't really given the topic much consideration until on Sunday at a point to point - one horse broke its neck and was dead before the hunt staff could get to it and a second snapped tendons and was shot on the course.
 
It's hard on everyone when horses die, but there are so many that don't. They like racing, it's a fantastic life for most of them. There are horrors in all equestrian spheres, just not as publicised as the racing ones are.
 
Caledonia said:
I see no parallels whatsoever. The only comparison would be the use of a dressage whip........ or spurs (incidentally as rare as hen's teeth in racing).
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no of course you wouldn't.

1. The whip is a means to an end - its to 'encourage' the horses to perform better

2. Rollkur is also a means to an end - its to encourage the horses to perform better

3. Some jockeys are banned for over use of the whip, some dressage riders are banned for using Rollkur.

4. They are both pieces of equipment used by the rider.
 
Minxie said:
no of course you wouldn't.

1. The whip is a means to an end - its to 'encourage' the horses to perform better

2. Rollkur is also a means to an end - its to encourage the horses to perform better

3. Some jockeys are banned for over use of the whip, some dressage riders are banned for using Rollkur.

4. They are both pieces of equipment used by the rider.
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Are you for real????????

Since when has rollkur been a piece of equipment?

Some jockeys are banned for being over a drink limit in the morning before racing....... is that the same as use of the whip and rollkur?

Comfortable tack is to encourage horses to perform better as is corrective shoeing, is that the same as a whip and rollkur?

Please.......
 
Apologies - I meant to say that dressage riders use drawreins to achieve the rollkur flexion. And these are a pieces of equipment

What I was doing was highlighting the similarities about using techniques / equipment to achieve greater improvement in horses. Racing uses whips / dressage uses rollkur.

And yet you apparently feel that its totally acceptable to use the whip excessively and not to use draw reins excessively.

I'm not sure why you were being so defensive. Its only a statement. You agree with using a whip. Many of the worlds top dressage riders agree with using the rollkur technique. I'm not sure how you can argue that point - or not see the parallel.
 
teagreen said:
. Yesterday my horse refused to go through the gateway, so he got several large cracks on his bottom with a normal stick - am I now crueller than those jocks?
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Sorry yes I think you are as bad as the jockey's, why several large cracks, one should be more than sufficent to "encourage" a horse to go forward. I actually wish to ride a well schooled, obedient horse that still thinks for itself, happy to work with me, warns me of dangers, can display their natural behaviour, not that does something in fear of several large cracks from a whip.

As for saying if hitting him three more times if that was the difference between winning and losing then all admiration for the jockey has now gone, good jockeys can encourage a horse to win with hands and heels, there is no place in any horse sport to abuse (by artificial aids or training methods) in this day and age. Both horses ran their hearts out to be rewarded how?
 
scally said:
Sorry yes I think you are as bad as the jockey's, why several large cracks, one should be more than sufficent to "encourage" a horse to go forward. I actually wish to ride a well schooled, obedient horse that still thinks for itself, happy to work with me, warns me of dangers, can display their natural behaviour, not that does something in fear of several large cracks from a whip.

As for saying if hitting him three more times if that was the difference between winning and losing then all admiration for the jockey has now gone, good jockeys can encourage a horse to win with hands and heels, there is no place in any horse sport to abuse (by artificial aids or training methods) in this day and age. Both horses ran their hearts out to be rewarded how?
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Well said Scally, totally agree!

Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!

Interesting to read that post about AP being sent back to the racing school, I didn't know that, but have always had him down as a 'win at any cost' type.
 
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Minxie said:
And yet you apparently feel that its totally acceptable to use the whip excessively and not to use draw reins excessively.

I'm not sure why you were being so defensive. Its only a statement. You agree with using a whip. Many of the worlds top dressage riders agree with using the rollkur technique. I'm not sure how you can argue that point - or not see the parallel.
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I'm not being defensive, I was actually laughing out loud at how ludicrous your parallel was.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have already said that I don't like to see horses being hit.

To spell it out for you, horses receive perhaps half a dozen cracks across the backside at the end of a race, for a max of 20 seconds or so. They are not whipped every stride, and they are not hit hard enough to mark. Frequently, they only race maybe six times a year.

Horses subjected to rollkur are forced into unnatural and uncomfortable positions day in day out, often for 45 minutes or more, if some of the training videos are to be believed. Their mental and physical well-being is compromised.

If you cannot see how far apart these two aspects of the horse world are, then I doubt your understanding of horses entirely.

I'm not arguing my point, btw, I'm pointing out you don't have one. What you are saying holds the same logic as ''If the grass is green, everything that's green must be grass........''
 
QR What I did see when Katie won on Poker de Sivola was a very talented young jockey living the dream at Cheltenham. Nina is the same, a very talented young female jockey.
Christ women can never do right can they? Women jockeys are considered to be weaker at race-riding than their male counterparts in some quarters and yet in the amateur race both the female jockeys showed their male colleagues a thing or too.
Now say for instance that both jockeys had failed to use their whips and not ride out at the finish, would they have been slated for then being weak at the end of the race, if their mounts had not finished first and second.
Now for one who does not like to see excessive use of the whip for no real reason I will also argue that today's whips are the kindest they have ever been. I have picked them up, felt them and also whacked my own leg with one so know just how different they are to the ones you can openly buy in tack shops.
There is no comparison in my eyes.
Rarely if ever do race horses return marked by the whip and of those that do I know of at least one who had sensitive skin hence why it returned marked.
I agree with Caledonia for once in a lot of what they have said on here on this thread as it makes huge sense.
Whips are essential aids to a jockey as already pointed out as the jockeys ride so short that using legs is often farcical. They are used not only as an aid to sharpen them up, if racing lazily ( as some horses are complete and utter monkeys) but also to help keep them straight as it is not as easy to guide with kicks from the heels when they are so high up the horses flanks. They are also used to make them race a bit quicker at the end of a race when it is needed in order for them to try and win.
Personally I see nothing wrong in using whips and even what is sometimes seen as overuse so long as the horse is given time to respond and the horse seemingly suffers no ill effects as a result of being hit.
I wonder how many pony club type ponies get smacked around at home or at events by whips, just so they can be seen to perform? I know the subject matter is about National Hunt horse racing but it doesn't hurt to put things into perspective from time to time.
As Caledonia previously pointed out racehorses, particularly those over jumps only race around half a dozen up to eight times approximately each year. Compare that to other horses and ponies in other disciplines who are not only trained hard but expected to perform repeatedly at far more events throughout the year.
All I can say is well done Katie and I wish I had been on at the price :)
 
Caledonia said:
I'm not being defensive, I was actually laughing out loud at how ludicrous your parallel was.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I have already said that I don't like to see horses being hit.

To spell it out for you, horses receive perhaps half a dozen cracks across the backside at the end of a race, for a max of 20 seconds or so. They are not whipped every stride, and they are not hit hard enough to mark. Frequently, they only race maybe six times a year.

Horses subjected to rollkur are forced into unnatural and uncomfortable positions day in day out, often for 45 minutes or more, if some of the training videos are to be believed. Their mental and physical well-being is compromised.

If you cannot see how far apart these two aspects of the horse world are, then I doubt your understanding of horses entirely.

I'm not arguing my point, btw, I'm pointing out you don't have one. What you are saying holds the same logic as ''If the grass is green, everything that's green must be grass........''
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hahaha - ah the inconvenient truth.

When I finally read all through your blah blah blah you've missed my point. But that okay I don't expect you to understand the complexities of it.

So i will spell it out for you. You say that using the whip is one part of racing. I'm saying using rollkur is one part of dressage. Just as you and others can justify the use of the whip, dressage can justify the use of rollkur. End of.
 
marmalade76 said:
Well said Scally, totally agree!

Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!

Interesting to read that post about AP being sent back to the racing school, I didn't know that, but have always had him down as a 'win at any cost' type.
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http://findarticles.com/p/news-arti...8_Nov_17/jockey-club-jump-mccoy/ai_n35855979/

If you google A P McCoy whip ban you will find an astonishing number of references

e.g.
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...-hitting-mount-50-times-with-whip-578181.html
 
People jumping on McCoy is like people jumping on professional showing producers :rolleyes: Some people just love picking faults in people who do a lot of winning. In his younger days, McCoy's resolution to win got him into trouble with the stewards. There is the important bit - he DID get punished, they didn't ignore him and say "Oh well, you're the champ, we'll let you off", they punished him like they do with any jockey who overuses the whip. He's without a doubt the greatest jump jockey we have seen for many years, perhaps ever, an expert horseman and a fantastic tactition - anyone who says McCoy doesn't care for the horses is an idiot. Simple. Did you see his clear love for Binocular winning the Champion Hurdle on Tuesday? Jockeys are often put between a rock and a hard place, as was the case for McCoy on Deenos Beano - if you don't push hard, you get into trouble with the owners and trainer. You might get jocked off the horse next time - do remember that being a jockey is a profession and whilst jockeys should always be exercising caution in their use of the whip, they desperately want to win and if there is that possibility at a massive festival such as this, they will sometimes push a bit harder. It's the emotion, the desire, you are so close to winning yet could be so far - wouldn't you push a bit further in the heat of the moment? And if they do, they ALWAYS get punished for it. Getting a 4 day ban for jockeys is not just a holiday - it is their job and it is 4 days of losing money for them.

As I said, I don't think it's right to overuse the whip AT ALL. But the whip DOES NOT hurt the horses - it is used as an encouragement, not to hurt the horses into running faster. Look at these whip regulations from the BHA:
Maximum length, including flap, of 68 cms;
Minimum diameter of 1 cm.

The only additional feature which may be attached to the whip is a flap. If a flap is attached it must fall within the specifications below:


A maximum length of flap from the end of the shaft of 10 cms;
A maximum width of the flap of 4 cms, with a minimum width of 2 cms;
The flap from the end of the shaft must not contain any reinforcements or additions.
There shall be no binding within 23 cms of the end of the flap;
The contact area of the shaft must be smooth, with no protrusion or raised surface, and covered by shock absorbing material throughout its circumference such that it gives a compression factor of at least 6mm;
The flap must have similar shock absorbing characteristics to that of the contact area;
The weight must not exceed 160 gms.
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Now, your average stick sold at the local tack shop will be FAR harsher than that described above, and will be used FAR more often and with greater force than jockeys use on the horses. How many times have you been at an event or a showjumping competition and seen a horse refuse, then get 3 sharp cracks behind for doing so? You will not find safer, more humane sticks anywhere than an on racecourse - so whilst they should still be used with caution (and they are, or the jockeys get punished), they are not hurting the horses to the extent to which some people seem to think. You think a racehorse in full flight really feels the sting of a whip? No - it's an encouragement, not a punishment or a tool to inflict pain. I think out of all the issues in racing, the whip is now a very small one.

You want to see whip abuse? You should look at some of the flat races in America, but that's a whole other story.
 
marmalade76 said:
Racehorses are allowed to show far more natural behaviour than dressage horses, their job is running in a herd. I'd be willing to bet there are far more happy racehorses than dressage horses!
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I don't think they are necessarily allowed to show 'far' more but I take on your point and agree there is a degree of more natural behaviour. When I rode work for a national hunt trainer he was one of the very very few who used to actually turn his out his horses during the season at all. Nearly every other yard had them stabled 24/7 with only an hours exercise. A few yards gave them holidays for a few weeks but this was more for economic reasons that for welfare ones. This could have totally changed though since I rode.

But if you look at horses that race (at all levels) I'd say that most of them still have predominantly stabled lives with very little natural behaviour other than when they are being exercised or raced - apparently only 6 times a year. (our race schedule was much heavier than that). And yet I'd also think that it would really only be the top 20/ 30% of horses that are kept for dressage who lead more restricted lives - limited turn out / limited interaction with other horses etc.

I've worked in racing and all I know of dressage is what my mate tells me (who does dressage on my horse). My original point is that just as people feel that using the whip is an acceptable part of the racing sport I suspect there is an equal number of people who feel that using rollkur is an acceptable part of the dressage sport. Thats all. I wasn't saying one was right and one was wrong. Just that everybody can find reasons to validate their opinions on what they do and don't do with horses. Some people find the use of the whip offensive but hate rollkur and visa versa.
 
teagreen said:
I don't advocate hitting the horses.
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Then you wrote
Yesterday my horse refused to go through the gateway, so he got several large cracks on his bottom with a normal stick - am I now crueller than those jocks?
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As you asked, the answers yes. Violence just to get a horse through a gate shows a lack of understanding of horse behaviour and no respect for a living creature.

Can't you be happy that they actually GOT a ban - they were punished for their oveuse, you'd have been damn unhappy if they hadn't been. It was an incredible achievement for Katie to win, you could see how emotion she was as it's actually rather a big thing to win at the festival. People can never be happy for people can they, there is always a grumble :rolleyes:

I thought it was a marvellous ride to get him home and a very well deserved win. Well done Katie!
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I would be more than happy, if it meant that the horse wasnt whipped for human gain. However if a win has to come with infliction of pain on the horse then no, its not deserved.

Padded or not, its still a whip. Why cant the winner be decided through fitness, management and skill- instead of by beating the horse?
 
teddyt said:
Then you wrote


As you asked, the answers yes. Violence just to get a horse through a gate shows a lack of understanding of horse behaviour and no respect for a living creature.



I would be more than happy, if it meant that the horse wasnt whipped for human gain. However if a win has to come with infliction of pain on the horse then no, its not deserved.

Padded or not, its still a whip. Why cant the winner be decided through fitness, management and skill- instead of by beating the horse?
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No respect for a living creature :rolleyes: I'm not going to even begin to explain to you how I treat, ride and manage my horses, but believe me, they couldn't be more well cared for and respected.

I regard myself as experienced enough to know when a horse doesn't want to go through a gate because it is in pain, it is scared or worried or because it's being plain naughty. I asked nicely twice, I got no reponse, so I asked harder. Half the people who complain about whips in racing are the type who say 'Oh my goodness, Dolly won't go through the gate when I ask...well if there is nothing scary there then he must be in pain! Quick, call the dentist and the chiropractor!" I'm not that type of horseperson. Do tell me, what do you do when you ride a naughty horse who won't go forwards?

The horses you see at the festival are at 100% fitness. But they do not always run flat out - they often need encouragement to do so. A jockey will get a horse as close as possible through skill - you don't see them hitting them are the start to get them to the front. But they can barely use their legs, pushing only has so much effect - so surely a few smacks with a padded stick does no harm? They don't beat the horse :rolleyes: And how on earth do you mean 'decide the winner through good management?'
 
_JH_ said:
... and she's won a 2nd! Good on her!
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Fantastic! Good on you girl, right up there in the top festival jockeys! Way to go Katie!

But as she didn't do it using natural horsemanship methods, I'm sure some people will have something to say :cool:
 
The bans don't come into play immediately, Amymay.

What a brilliant ride she gave this horse........ cool as a cucumber.
 
teagreen said:
Do tell me, what do you do when you ride a naughty horse who won't go forwards?
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I work out why its being 'naughty'. Most of the time its not actually being naughty, its trying to communicate that it is uncomfortable/worried/insecure/stressed or whatever. By the time its refusing to move you have missed several signals and the horse has to resort to stopping to make itself heard. I certainly dont give the horse 'several large cracks' as you put it. Totally OTT and unecessary IMO. I always carry a whip but it is never used out of temper, frustration or as a shortcut for correct understanding and training of the horse. Also, if you have got to the point where a horse is communcating through behaviour in an equine equivalent of shouting then you have either asked too much of the horse or the horse doesnt trust you enough to do as you ask. Either way, it is the rider that needs to address their knowledge, understanding and communication skills, NOT a quick fix by 'several large cracks' with a whip and forcing a horse to do something through pain (or fear of pain).


And how on earth do you mean 'decide the winner through good management?'
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Im amused. Management = routine, environment, nutrition, tack, care after exercise, bedding, turnout.... They all affect how well a horse can perform. You could have a genetically superior horse, trained by the best trainer and ridden by the best jockey but if you feed it mollichaff it wont perform at its best. A bit like trying to run a formula one car from a back street garage on standard petrol from the station up the road.

Management influences success. At a different % of influence than genetics and fitness but incredibly important nonetheless.
 
teagreen said:
But as she didn't do it using natural horsemanship methods, I'm sure some people will have something to say :cool:
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For the record- im not into natural horsemanship
but i am into training and understanding the horse, not just getting results by being selfish or through pain, fear, force or bullying :)
 
teddyt said:
I work out why its being 'naughty'. Most of the time its not actually being naughty, its trying to communicate that it is uncomfortable/worried/insecure/stressed or whatever. By the time its refusing to move you have missed several signals and the horse has to resort to stopping to make itself heard. I certainly dont give the horse 'several large cracks' as you put it. Totally OTT and unecessary IMO. I always carry a whip but it is never used out of temper, frustration or as a shortcut for correct understanding and training of the horse. Also, if you have got to the point where a horse is communcating through behaviour in an equine equivalent of shouting then you have either asked too much of the horse or the horse doesnt trust you enough to do as you ask. Either way, it is the rider that needs to address their knowledge, understanding and communication skills, NOT a quick fix by 'several large cracks' with a whip and forcing a horse to do something through pain (or fear of pain).




Im amused. Management = routine, environment, nutrition, tack, care after exercise, bedding, turnout.... They all affect how well a horse can perform. You could have a genetically superior horse, trained by the best trainer and ridden by the best jockey but if you feed it mollichaff it wont perform at its best. A bit like trying to run a formula one car from a back street garage on standard petrol from the station up the road.

Management influences success. At a different % of influence than genetics and fitness but incredibly important nonetheless.
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You're funny :D You also seem to have absolutely no idea about racehorses or racehorse training. Therefore I'm not going to even try to explain anything else to you because you have no idea what we're talking about, sorry!

JH, you're completely right :D
 
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