Shame on you H&H!

_JH_ said:
Yes sounds like some would rather the jockeys carried carrot sticks as opposed to whips ;)
Click to expand...

Well I certainly wouldn't. And those of you who know me know that I'm certainly not opposed to giving a horse a good crack where it's warranted.

I think what many of us are in fact saying is that these horses run for fun - they love it - and I certainly worry about the fairness of hitting a horse that is allready giving you 110%. You can encourage it with your hands and heal. I hold up my hands though and say that the reality is I only know about racing what I see on the box etc. and have no insider knowledge on how these horses should be ridden. My opinions are only based on what I see.

Anyway - feelings run strong on this subject. However, I think I would probably prefer a whip to a carrot stick if pressed........:rolleyes::p:D
 
teagreen said:
You're funny :D You also seem to have absolutely no idea about racehorses or racehorse training. Therefore I'm not going to even try to explain anything else to you because you have no idea what we're talking about, sorry!
Click to expand...

If you say so. You obviously have little conviction in your point of view compared to mine, if you cant be bothered to explain and try and get me to understand. Now i see why you used the whip on your horse like you did.

One of the best trainers in the country thought differently to you as he headhunted me and offered me a job as his assistant once :p Racing isnt for me though, due to the way many of the horses are treated for human gain. Im not anti-racing per se but it does create alot of welfare issues that i dislike immensely.
:)
 
teddyt said:
Racing isnt for me though, due to the way many of the horses are treated for human gain. Im not anti-racing per se but it does create alot of welfare issues that i dislike immensely.
:)
Click to expand...

And of course all other horse sports are squeaky and shiny and have no human gain.....

Racing is only different in that EVERYTHING is out there in the public eye.
 
Caledonia said:
And of course all other horse sports are squeaky and shiny and have no human gain.....
Click to expand...

I know you are being sarcastic but not at all. Even outside of sport there are far too many issues with horse welfare due to human selfishness. But this conversation is about racing.

Racing is only different in that EVERYTHING is out there in the public eye.
Click to expand...

I quite agree.
 
I'd rather not say tbh. Although it was ten years ago i wasnt exactly truthful about why i didnt want the job. I couldnt exactly tell him its because i dissaproved of the way he did certain things with the horses! And you never know who reads this forum. All i will say is that he was very successful, he had alot of horses and trained from a multi million pound purpose built yard. It just wasnt for me.

(I had worked for another yard nearby whilst i was a student and he tracked me down from there. He wanted someone practical but with scientific knowledge too and i had done an Equine Science degree)
 
Ignition said:
Interesting. This comment shows you to be ignorant about racing, yet you still found reason to comment on this thread about the important issue of whips - a subject probably best left to the more knowledgable. Stick to your parelli, AmyMay.
Click to expand...

That's extremely rude!

Everyone has the right to an opinion, and it is no business of your to tell people where to post. Personally, I think fair play to AmyMay for admitting she didn't know something.
 
I do think that bans should be handed out from the day they commit the offence for x amount of days, that way jockeys would be far more carefull about the use of the whip. For example a 3 day ban handed out on day one of the Cheltenham Festival would have far more impact than a 3 day ban starting in a few days time.

That would mean that Walsh would have been banned from riding today therefore not allowing her to win today at a top class meeting, so far more impact and they would hopefully ride with a little more thought and consideration for both their careers and their mounts rather than after that one win.

On a totally different point, the argument that the new race whips dont hurt as they dont leave a mark, if a horses skin is that sensitive it can feel a fly land on it, then of course they can feel a whip hitting them time and time again.

I would love to see whips banned totally, then we will truly see who the great jockeys are. My love of jump racing is to see horses running and jumping, because they want to not because they are bullied into it.
 
scally said:
I would love to see whips banned totally, then we will truly see who the great jockeys are. My love of jump racing is to see horses running and jumping, because they want to not because they are bullied into it.
Click to expand...

That would be interesting, and I also like to see horses doing a job they love.

Perhaps I have been very lucky, all the horses and ponies I have had have been keen, busy, whizzy types that always gave their all every time, so if they slowed up, it was because they were genuinely tired and hitting them would not have got me anything other than an upset and insulted horse!

And, FWIW, I do not approve of Parelli at all.
 
scally said:
I do think that bans should be handed out from the day they commit the offence for x amount of days, that way jockeys would be far more carefull about the use of the whip. For example a 3 day ban handed out on day one of the Cheltenham Festival would have far more impact than a 3 day ban starting in a few days time.
Click to expand...
Which then means that they have no right to appeal, and the next few days totally hang on a couple of stewards??!! Right. So the local bobby should also be able to hand out jail sentances, no need for judge and jury.
The stewards review the tapes, they hand out what they consider to be appropriate. They can also refer the incident to HQ, who will deal with it. And the jockey/trainer can appeal, and occasionally win, as other evidence can come to light. For instance, a ban for a horse interferring can be overturned because the horse had a leg and was leaning that way.
This is the correct legal process, luckily sense prevails. And you'll find that any ban, to most jockeys, will be a pain in the butt and to be avoided. It's very hard to stay sensible in the heat of the moment.


An earlier comment, that I can't be bothered to go back and quote, stated the amount of losses on the track. The poster's signature then states repeal of the ban, so they are a hunting enthusiast. Perhaps it's a good thing the losses out hunting are not recorded, as they are many. Racing is in the eye, hence a target. All data is available. Racing has become safer, but it could never pretend to be a safe sport. But as long as the horses a keen so am I.

Well done Katie BTW, a good rider who deserved her wins. Hopefully experience will help her to not overstep the mark again.
 
I can't believe what drivel I've seen from some in this thread and from those I didn't expect it from too but suffice to say I congratulate Katie on her wins, they were both well deserved. The girls will have learnt their lessons and be more careful in future but they are both brilliant riders and they deserve their successes, I know how hard they work for them.

As to the rolkur/racing analogy, absolutely laughable. How can you equate less than five minutes in a race very few times a year to being trained in rolkur many times a week and for very much longer at a time? Short answer, you can't and I certainly know which I wouldn't use.
 
Good point Duggan, I did not think about their right to appeal. This just shows how hard it is to get things right in everyones eyes.
 
duggan said:
Which then means that they have no right to appeal, and the next few days totally hang on a couple of stewards??!! Right. So the local bobby should also be able to hand out jail sentances, no need for judge and jury.
The stewards review the tapes, they hand out what they consider to be appropriate. They can also refer the incident to HQ, who will deal with it. And the jockey/trainer can appeal, and occasionally win, as other evidence can come to light. For instance, a ban for a horse interferring can be overturned because the horse had a leg and was leaning that way.
This is the correct legal process, luckily sense prevails. And you'll find that any ban, to most jockeys, will be a pain in the butt and to be avoided. It's very hard to stay sensible in the heat of the moment.
Click to expand...

Totally correct.

Added to which, the declarations are made for races the day before, so whilst you inconvenience a jockey, you may well screw up plans for other trainers and owners not remotely connected to the incident. Jockeys are not plucked out of the air, a regular jockey ban creates significant headaches for stables even when given time to rearrange their riding plans.
 
Ignition, I just happened to come across this post. Saying "stick to your parelli" is a very pathetic remark. I am against the use of whips in such a manner. Am horrified you accept it so readily. Doesn't mean Im into Parelli however...
 
Cazee34 said:
QR What I did see when Katie won on Poker de Sivola was a very talented young jockey living the dream at Cheltenham. Nina is the same, a very talented young female jockey.
Christ women can never do right can they? Women jockeys are considered to be weaker at race-riding than their male counterparts in some quarters and yet in the amateur race both the female jockeys showed their male colleagues a thing or too.
Now say for instance that both jockeys had failed to use their whips and not ride out at the finish, would they have been slated for then being weak at the end of the race, if their mounts had not finished first and second.All I can say is well done Katie and I wish I had been on at the price :)
Click to expand...

So what are you saying - women don't have the talent to be able to win, and have to rely on illegal, cruel painful measures?


It doesn't matter whether they were male or female, stop being so sexist. Beating a horse is wrong. Plenty of people win at the top levels without smacking, beating or abusing their mounts. And the person who said they smacked their horse several times - I hope you don't have children.

I'm not anti-whips at all, when they are fairly used, efficient and don't cross the encourage-abuse line. Hence why there is a rule for the excessive use of the whip. I don't see why people resort to beating up their animals anyway - you never see a F1 driver getting out a stick and smashing his car up...

ETA - this isn't about this particular rider, just a general take on the "you don't understand what it takes to win in racing" stance in the earlier pages of this post. I don't know much about Katie, so if she has learnt from this, and it was just a "heat of the moment" thing, then good luck to her.
 
Last edited:
Tongue in cheek, my dear....

Far be it for you to assume noone matches upto your superior intellectual levels, BUT some of us also manage to occasionally stop banging rocks together to make a joke.
 
BrambleandMonty said:
So what are you saying - women don't have the talent to be able to win, and have to rely on illegal, cruel painful measures?
Click to expand...
Using the whip isn't illegal. Nor is it cruel or painful - the horses weren't marked. It is used as an encouragement. I'm sure they feel it, but it won't be as painful as the average smack a horse gets at home.

Plenty of people win at the top levels without smacking, beating or abusing their mounts.
Click to expand...
And there are plenty of people who do. If you happen to attend competitions, both major and minor, in any area of equestrianism, you will see this. Jockeys are not abusing their horses :rolleyes: I have seen much worse at showjumping and dressage events.

And the person who said they smacked their horse several times - I hope you don't have children.
Click to expand...
Er, what does that matter? How I ride my horses or parent my kids is none of your business - my horses are extremely happy, pain free and respectful and you, as a mere forum user, have NO way of telling otherwise!

I don't see why people resort to beating up their animals anyway - you never see a F1 driver getting out a stick and smashing his car up...
Click to expand...
a) That's ridiculous :D
b) The jockeys are not 'beating there horses up'. I have seen several showjumpers give their horses many cracks behind for refusing - that is beating. Giving a racehorses a smack with a racing whip - not beating.

If you watch racing, you will probably see quite a lot of whip action. But if you actually watch what they do with the stick, you will see it is mostly used for encouraging them forward and keeping them straight without hitting the horse.

In this case, Katie Walsh DID hit the horse too much. So she was punished. But she didn't hurt the horse, she didn't beat it up like you see so many domestic horse owners/competitors do and I'm sure it was completely unfazed and unaware of what happened after the race.
 
We're trained, as jockeys, to 'show the horse the whip'. This means moving the whip forwards and backwards in rhythm to the stride, every third stride at most you can use the whip across the quarters. At this point you can't put pressure on the whip, it's more of an encouragement. A showjumper that pulls the horse up, turns the whip over and gives it a crack will exert more pressure than a jockey in a race.
Go and stand by the track, especially at a point, out on the back straight. The slap slap of the whips is normal, and you wouldn't know from the sound which horses were being encouraged down the neck and which are getting reminders. None are being 'beaten up'.
When you are riding forwards in a finish you cannot turn your body round to put pressure and weight behind the stick.
If you have a 'Harchibald' kind of horse you can make it all look easy and win on the bridle. But there are few of those around. Look at little Pigeon Island in the last, push shove, encourage, shove, slap, push. All to keep him trying and motivated. Que one smug looking horse, ears pricked, knowing full well he got there in time and gets all the attention. Fantastic to watch, brave little horse.

On one of my courses they sat me on the equicisor and told me to show the horse the whip, i did as was told, but whilst the darn machine was flying and i was showing away I informed him there was no point - my horse was wearing blinkers. Instructor rolled his eyes and shook his head. Troop wore blinkers all the time, i encouraged him with the whip, my voice and on one occasion I threw the kitchen sink at him too! Cruel woman.

Roll on Aintree!
 
Innocent until proven guilty doesn't apply to internet forums!
What I did consider, once away from the pc, is that the point I was making was it's hard to see when the whip is making contact, and when it is being shown. So there can be a lot of waving and little smacking. A good jockey knows that hands and heels can result in more effort, especially on a tired horse. But in the heat of the moment, at the meaty end of the race? Well, sometimes we get excited.
And talking of beating cars up, Basil Fawlty did once, it was hilarious!
 
scally said:
On a totally different point, the argument that the new race whips dont hurt as they dont leave a mark, if a horses skin is that sensitive it can feel a fly land on it, then of course they can feel a whip hitting them time and time again.
Click to expand...
But I can feel a fly land on me,it takes quite a bit of force for it to hurt......and as a human,I dont have a coat in the way ;) .

I once was unfortunate enough to see a horse hit so hard it hurt it-the reaction was,to say the least,explosive and the rider was left in no doubt they had gone way too far.
I would expect the reaction from a thin skinned TB to be pretty fierce,yet have not seen or heard of a racehorse reacting to the whip with anything but the desired effect.


Racing is so high profile and so much in the public eye that every move made is under the microscope.
If they dont use the whip,punters are screamign for blood because they lost money due to the jockey not trying.
Use it and they are cruel.....
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top