Share your seller red flags!

[I'm Dun]

I like to watch from the side also to see if the horse steps shorter with one leg than the other. Your comment about listening to the beats is very apt, interestingly if you ask for a video of the horse trotting up before embarking on a 6 hour round trip the seller will often dub over the sound of the hooves with music . Same goes for ridden videos, more useful to hear if the horse is making a noise, but almost always sound tracked by irrelevant tunes.

And even if you cant see lameness well, let your eyes go soft and follow the horse while you listen. People are pretty good at picking up patterns and noticing when things are off. You will quite often get a gut feel even if you don't know where or what.

 

[Ambers Echo]

Definitely pays to be aware but you can be TOO paranoid I think! I was told there was another viewing in the morning for Dolly and I don’t doubt for a second there was. I needed to secure the sale there and then if I wanted her. The phone was ringing off the hook when I sold her on too - people who faffed missed out on an awesome pony. Bombproof is just a phrase meaning safe/not spooky despite all manner of hazards. Might not be true but certainly can be.

But in my own list of red flags I’ll add: sold from the field due to lack of time. Or even worse: lack of facilities. In a horse described as sound and ready to crack on. It makes no sense for an owner not to hire trial facilities or use sales livery. Or to spend a few weeks bringing the horse back into work given how many extra ££££ you’d get for one sold in work.

 

[Ambers Echo]

And also one viewer for Jenny was soooooo suspicious - basically communicated that she was not going to believe what I said, asked me to evidence everything, looked sceptical about some answers etc. I couldn't be bothered with that and did not agree a 2nd viewing. She will probably have concluded I had something to hide and consider that she dodged a bullet. But instead missed out on the world's coolest 13.2... As frankly i had plenty of other interest and did not need to deal with anyone awkward. Don't offend or annoy the seller is I think wise! If you have a genuinely good/safe/honest/sound horse it is still a seller's market. Personally I go off word of mouth for private sales (eg Jenny) or the reputation of the dealer (eg Dolly and Lottie). Because trust still matters and while obvious red flags are importsnt not to ignore, you actually do need to trust that the seller is describing the horse correctly. Some people just out and out lie. And are very good at it.

 

[NotInTheKnow]

So a couple weeks since I started this thread the red flags still kept coming. Some of them were mentioned here and thank goodness I was able to see right through them. So thank you to all those who kindly shared the warnings.

This time I've approached dealers/businesses in the hopes that it would be less risky given, presumably, that there is a reputation and livelihood to maintain + the consumer rights act 2015/cooling off period safety net (please correct me if I'm wrong to assume this applies to them)

And to keep the essence of my original post, here are some of my favourites!

One dealer (quite well known, lots of reviews etc) I approached for a specific horse advertised shamelessly did the textbook pressure tactic: act quick or the horse will be gone by the weekend (for a horse that has been up for sale for 10 weeks by her own admission!). Week or so later the horse is still for sale with a significant price reduction.

Second dealer - this time I asked for a match on what's available by stating my requirements. First suggestion I wasn't keen. Then moves on to suggest a second one and by some stroke of luck I've already enquired about this horse directly with the owner before putting him on sales livery with this dealer. The owner was decent and upfront about the horse's issues. When I revealed what I know to this dealer after her sales pitch, she tried to feign ignorance and made excuses that she just remembered them because "the horse literally just came in". I played it cool and she quickly tried to change the subject and suggested a third one, which is not even for sale/advertised but she'll consider selling it to me and made it sound like she's doing me a special favour.

And finally third dealer - claimed the horse is pure and registered in studbook, which is easily verifiable so I thought why would anyone lie about this or not have the correct information? Wrong! And the excuse? Misspelt the name, will check passport tomorrow. I mean, really ?!? Also, ignores my question when I asked for the name of the breeder.

End of rant.

 

[Wishfilly]

I think part of the problem is that really nice horses/ponies don't often end up with dealers etc- they are either not sold, or sold quickly by word of mouth in the local horsey community. I'm not saying you never get good horses up for sale on the open market, but for most people when they find a horse that is sound, basically sane, and is athletically capable of doing what they want to do, they will generally only sell if forced to by circumstances (or possibly outgrown/stepping up a level etc). And in this case, if the horse is known locally to be a good, sane, all-rounder, then it's very likely someone will snap it up!

In terms of red flags, I would definitely google the registered name of a horse- especially if it's something distinctive. When I was looking, I did this WRT a pony I was interested in, and found that she'd been through the sales as a 3yo (only 5 when I was viewing, so recent) sold as a broodmare only due to a field injury. It's very possible the sellers didn't even know about this, and she was in light work and sound, but I didn't want to buy trouble!

I know it's hard if you don't have an "in" with the local horsey community, but if you do, I would ask around locally if there is anything potentially coming up for sale that might fit the bill for you. Otherwise, unfortunately, I do think you may have to make some compromises!

 

[Needtoretire]

Just turn up an hour earlier than the planned appointment, give a cheery hello and say the traffic wasn't as bad as expected.

I buy for people and often turn up early, it reveals all sorts of hilarious moments. Nice big grey in Derbyshire was in the paddock alongside the long drive into the yard he looked wet but the sun was out. Owner was red in the face and hot. Horse had been bathed. I asked how long they had been working it for before I arrived. Horse was caught and took an almighty chunk out of the arm of the groom leading it.

Dealer yard in Leamington Spa, 10am appointment to try a smallish cob, arrived at 9 and yard was closed. Young groom arrived and I followed her in to stable block, the cob was stood on concrete no food and no water, evidently been like it all night. Groom tells me the cob had arrived from Ireland the day before. I asked to see it ridden and groom said no chance, you will have to wait until the boss gets here.

Been to lots of 'it lost a shoe this morning so you can't try it on the road' Plenty of ACP'ed horses including a well known heavyweight show hunter who had no control of his sheath. I smiled and suggested the vendor needed to study the time lines and dosage of ACP.

A genuine vendor will just make you a cup of tea when you arrive early and truthfully say the horse is still covered in mud or eating his breakfast/lunch. I was buying for myself many years ago and arrived 6 hours late after getting stuck on the M25 due to a shed load of oil. Of course we had called the vendor who was a well known and respected dealer. He kindly arranged for us to stay in a cottage on the yard and try the horse the next day, he also cancelled the trying of the horse by someone else due to see it that morning. So glad he was honest as that horse turned into my horse of a lifetime and took me to places most people can only dream of.

 

[Flowerofthefen]

Person I know well said to me she had found a good pony for a good price. That rang alarm bells to start!! Good ponies are extortionate and if the pony had done PC then they rarely come on the market, usually are sold within the pony club. She went to see it. Apparently it was fantastic, she had it vetted, bought it. When it arrived I can honestly say I had never smelt anything like it. I understand change in feed, the move can upset the gut but Jesus, this was on another level. The seller, later transpired she was a dealer, would only take cash only. Another red flag. Buyer managed to track down previous owner from passport and found pony had history of ulcers. She also found pony had been put through the sales as where pony was previously kept it was impossible for people to view him , so they put him through sales??? If he had done pony club surely he was in an area where people could view?? Pony isn't right and imo it isn't just ulcers. He has a great home now where he will be looked after but this is a case of not looking into sellers and doing due diligence before buying. None of the 'stories' add up. Pony is very lucky to have landed where it has.

 

[starbucker]

Buying is honestly hard work I feel for you, keep going you will find one soon, stay picky but tbh the best ponies are less likely to end up at a dealer yard, unless they have issues that need ironing out.

Share on your social media that you are looking / post in local horsey fb groups. If you are lucky and the owner cares about them being settled you may get a trial period with agreement (I asked and got one and was the best thing I could have done - highly recommend atleast asking). Alot of livery yards near me also buy in a few and have them ridden and brought on for a few months then list them for sale - I see some nice ones come through mostly sold through connections or sometimes to people on the yard - because they are local they are pretty honest knowing buyers are quite often to be a livery / down the road

 

[NotInTheKnow]

I think part of the problem is that really nice horses/ponies don't often end up with dealers etc- they are either not sold, or sold quickly by word of mouth in the local horsey community. I'm not saying you never get good horses up for sale on the open market, but for most people when they find a horse that is sound, basically sane, and is athletically capable of doing what they want to do, they will generally only sell if forced to by circumstances (or possibly outgrown/stepping up a level etc). And in this case, if the horse is known locally to be a good, sane, all-rounder, then it's very likely someone will snap it up!

In terms of red flags, I would definitely google the registered name of a horse- especially if it's something distinctive. When I was looking, I did this WRT a pony I was interested in, and found that she'd been through the sales as a 3yo (only 5 when I was viewing, so recent) sold as a broodmare only due to a field injury. It's very possible the sellers didn't even know about this, and she was in light work and sound, but I didn't want to buy trouble!

I know it's hard if you don't have an "in" with the local horsey community, but if you do, I would ask around locally if there is anything potentially coming up for sale that might fit the bill for you. Otherwise, unfortunately, I do think you may have to make some compromises!

Thank you for pointing this out, this is helpful for the morale -- to accept this is just simply the nature of beast.

 

[NotInTheKnow]

Buying is honestly hard work I feel for you, keep going you will find one soon, stay picky but tbh the best ponies are less likely to end up at a dealer yard, unless they have issues that need ironing out.

Share on your social media that you are looking / post in local horsey fb groups. If you are lucky and the owner cares about them being settled you may get a trial period with agreement (I asked and got one and was the best thing I could have done - highly recommend atleast asking). Alot of livery yards near me also buy in a few and have them ridden and brought on for a few months then list them for sale - I see some nice ones come through mostly sold through connections or sometimes to people on the yard - because they are local they are pretty honest knowing buyers are quite often to be a livery / down the road

Thank you, I haven't thought about this possible pitfall when buying from a dealer and this absolutely makes sense. Good/nice horses always sell so long as demand far outstrips the supply as pointed out by @Wishfilly and logically there would be no need to involve a middle man. So the presence of one does bring that into question!

 

[ycbm]

Thank you, I haven't thought about this possible pitfall when buying from a dealer and this absolutely makes sense. Good/nice horses always sell so long as demand far outstrips the supply as pointed out by @Wishfilly and logically there would be no need to involve a middle man. So the presence of one does bring that into question!

Good horses are sold by dealers all the time. Dealer sales are much better covered by the law than private sales, especially if the dealer owns the horse.
.

The selling process is a real pain for private sellers for numerous reasons.

Liveries gawping at your buyers and putting them off.
Inability to book the facilities for your viewers.
Viewers booking and not turning up.
Viewers turning up who can't ride as well as they say they can.
Viewers who won't make up their minds and want multiple visits.
Seller who is too anxious to do a good job presenting the horse.
Seller who is desperately upset about selling, and must, but finds it too painful to manage it themselves.
Seller who has overhorsed themselves and accepts that.
Seller who knows the dealer will get a better price than they can.
Seller who has no facilities to show the horse.
Seller who hasn't time to show the horse when viewers want to view.
Seller whose personal circumstances mean they need a quick no-comeback sale to a dealer.
Etc.


I have sold 2 good horses, one through a dealer and one to a dealer for some of these reasons.

 

[SilverLinings]

Brilliant, thank you! And always have a second pair of eyes.

Even taking someone who isn't particularly horsey can help. I have taken my mother a few times in the past, she can ride (to a fairly basic level), handle and look after a horse, but doesn't know about conformation and couldn't spot a subtle lameness or other issue. I introduced her to the sellers but didn't tell them the decision was up to me or that she was fairly novice. It is far harder for a seller to hide something, distract you or change the subject when there is a second pair of eyes, and we found that when I rode the sellers would get into conversation with my mother and tell her all sorts of things to fill the silence. My mother knew to play along and did a very good job of convincing them she was an experienced expert despite saying very little aside from general pleasantries!

Further to @Ambers Echo comment about the 'sold from the field' or 'lack of facilities' excuses for not showing the horse off or allowing the buyer to ride: I have bought and sold some very good horses from the field (no school, road hacking) and had no problem. They were for PC/RC area level so not looking for a professional's horse, but one went on to SJ very successfully. Back in the 1990s and earlier the vast majority of horses were sold from fields, maneges (and transport) were few and far between, and buyers and sellers just cracked on and made the most of it. The lack of facilities would only deter me if I needed to see the horse doing something specific that was not possible in the field (e.g. jump coloured fences if the seller had none) and the seller wasn't willing/able to transport them.

 

[Patterdale]

If it helps, I have been buying and selling horses for many years and I have NEVER known the market like this. SO many horses and ponies are ruined and/or lame, and SO many sellers are behaving very badly.
They used to be the exception - now it seems they are the rule.

I have been looking for a 128 pony for several months, and have now admitted defeat and bought a 4 year old direct from the breeder, to do the job ourselves. Seems quiet enough so hopefully we’ll get on ok.

 

[nutjob]

If it helps, I have been buying and selling horses for many years and I have NEVER known the market like this. SO many horses and ponies are ruined and/or lame, and SO many sellers are behaving very badly.
They used to be the exception - now it seems they are the rule.

My experience exactly - although I'm looking for a horse not a pony. The whole experience is absolutely demoralising.

 

[FitzyFitz]

Buying AND selling is a nightmare experience imo last one i bought was a pretty straightforward experience but a few of the ones I viewed before seeing her weren't so good. One I turned up and they said it had just seen the farrier the day before and it was quite clear its feet had been a very different shape before that visit, lots taken off at the toe. Several where viewings were cancelled last minute or were different heights/sizes/ages than expected. One that nearly kicked me across the yard when I went to pick feet up. (had been tacked up when i arrived. Can't think why...lol)
The one I bought hadn't been out of a field pretty much ever, and had long back feet as they'd struggled to get it trimmed regularly enough, but they were truthful and gave me free rein of the yard etc to muck about with the pony and get a good idea of its temperament so when she passed the vetting I got her. Despite being 8yo and a bit feral!

I backed and sold a couple of broodmares for a breeder I know last year, the selling process was bloody miserable. A lot of people didn't want to know as soon as they found out I wasn't the owner, even though they could contact them, and the owner before that for one of them. Unsurprising in a world where everyone is worried about dodgy dealers I suppose.
The thing that annoyed me more was talking to someone, sharing all the info and videos, then they go "oh well she's a bit older than I want" THE AGE IS ON THE ADVERT and I showed you the passport what do you want me to do?? Hop in my TARDIS? Or oh she's a bit green. Yes, the advert says newly backed ex broodmare. I showed you the video of me sitting on her for the first time, dated at xmas time. Also showed video dated last month (june) of her hacking out solo past a tractor and doing an intro dressage test, so you can't say you don't know what stage she is at.
Only plus side is i didn't have to get through too many viewings because when anyone actually showed up I think it was fairly obvious the mares were in fact as described. I always pulled them muddy out of the paddock in front of the viewer, took plenty of time over it and showed them everything I could think of, and generally one of my family members was around also chatting about said horse and our stories always lined up cause they were true, so both found good homes easily once people actually came and looked!

The market is mad though, so many adverts I see that can't possibly be true, or maybe they are true but misleading eg all those angelic 4 years olds that are absolute hellions when they turn 5. Maybe they ARE lovely right now but doesnt mean they' d actually be suitable for everyone. I'm planning on looking for a youngster for my next one, can actually afford it, and sure, it might break before i get a chance to ride but at least the only person screwing it up training wise will be me. Not an option for everyone though I appreciate!

 

[MiJodsR2BlinkinTite]

Don't buy a horse in November and find out its a headshaker in April!!

^^ Ditto sweet itch. Very easy to palm one off during the winter months, then you find come Spring that you've got a problem.

 

[NotInTheKnow]

My experience exactly - although I'm looking for a horse not a pony. The whole experience is absolutely demoralising.

I can't help but wonder, can you throw money at it? Is there a minimum threshold budget wise that kinda tips it over to a less dodgy experience? Would someone who has a £10k or less versus £100k have a vastly different experience?

 

[ycbm]

I can't help but wonder, can you throw money at it? Is there a minimum threshold budget wise that kinda tips it over to a less dodgy experience? Would someone who has a £10k or less versus £100k have a vastly different experience?

I'm not sure. I had a friend with a £30k budget 10 years ago who had 2 vet failures before she bought, and an acquaintance selling a £40k horse 4 years ago that failed the vet.

I think it's easier because the pool of potential horses is so much smaller, maybe.
.

 

[Flame_]

If, when you mount, they hold it in a death grip facing a high fence or wall, it might have a mounting/madness issue.

 

[ycbm]

If, when you mount, they hold it in a death grip facing a high fence or wall, it might have a mounting/madness issue.

A friend went to try one once. When the girl who showed it off got on two people held it as it tried to back away and as soon as they let go it marched off. I said to them "I hope you're not going to tell me that's normally how she gets on? " and they looked at me completely blank.

The horse seemed sound enough but looking at it later on video it was dropping a hip badly.
.

 

[Lois Lame]

Just turn up an hour earlier than the planned appointment, give a cheery hello and say the traffic wasn't as bad as expected.

I buy for people and often turn up early, it reveals all sorts of hilarious moments. Nice big grey in Derbyshire was in the paddock alongside the long drive into the yard he looked wet but the sun was out. Owner was red in the face and hot. Horse had been bathed. I asked how long they had been working it for before I arrived. Horse was caught and took an almighty chunk out of the arm of the groom leading it.

Dealer yard in Leamington Spa, 10am appointment to try a smallish cob, arrived at 9 and yard was closed. Young groom arrived and I followed her in to stable block, the cob was stood on concrete no food and no water, evidently been like it all night. Groom tells me the cob had arrived from Ireland the day before. I asked to see it ridden and groom said no chance, you will have to wait until the boss gets here.

Been to lots of 'it lost a shoe this morning so you can't try it on the road' Plenty of ACP'ed horses including a well known heavyweight show hunter who had no control of his sheath. I smiled and suggested the vendor needed to study the time lines and dosage of ACP.

A genuine vendor will just make you a cup of tea when you arrive early and truthfully say the horse is still covered in mud or eating his breakfast/lunch. I was buying for myself many years ago and arrived 6 hours late after getting stuck on the M25 due to a shed load of oil. Of course we had called the vendor who was a well known and respected dealer. He kindly arranged for us to stay in a cottage on the yard and try the horse the next day, he also cancelled the trying of the horse by someone else due to see it that morning. So glad he was honest as that horse turned into my horse of a lifetime and took me to places most people can only dream of.

 

[dapple_grey]

I've been searching for a few months and there are a few red flags I've experienced in that time:

Horse 1: Asked owner to send videos of a black horse trotting up. Owner sends videos of it against a black background. Horse is lame behind but the backdrop does a good job of hiding it until you zoom in

Horse 2: 5yo, not been ridden for a year. Turns out the owner had broken her back a year ago - but from another horse not him! (call me cynical). Told that he's cheeky but was an angel when her daughter rode him. Asked why daughter hadn't ridden in the past year. Oh because she's off to uni. Makes sense?!

Horse 3: Noticed on a photo it looks like one foot is turned out. Owner assures me it's just the way she's stood in the photo. Pushed for some videos of her trotting up on the hard, and not only does she have a toe out but the whole limb rotates outwards with each step. Questioned this to the owner, no answer!

Horse 4: Advert describes horse as 'straight and correct', sends photos of horse from behind and she is in fact cow hocked and extremely turned out on both hinds. Off fore also turned out considerably

Horse 5: Horse described as losing the love of XC (a term I'm also cynical about) and he's been stopping after a few fences. The red flag for me would be why not investigate/have a loss of performance work up rather than selling as a hunter. Would potentially have taken a punt if it was cheaper but he was 5 figures.

Also noticed a lot of 5-figure horses that are 'cold-backed' and have vices like wind-sucking - one recently had both

 

[Irish-Only]

I’ve been around horses all my life (in my 60’s now), have bought and sold, stood a stallion for years and bred our own and sold the youngsters to lovely people who still keep in touch and share photos etc.
I have one homebred now who is in her teens so have been looking for 18months for a 2nd ridden horse.
I’ve given up and am getting a youngster

 

[starbucker]

I’ve been around horses all my life (in my 60’s now), have bought and sold, stood a stallion for years and bred our own and sold the youngsters to lovely people who still keep in touch and share photos etc.
I have one homebred now who is in her teens so have been looking for 18months for a 2nd ridden horse.
I’ve given up and am getting a youngster

I accidentally ended up with a youngster too after months of looking

 

[onemoretime]

Think twice if the horse is under lights or has sweat marks from recent exercise when you arrive unless you are told that the horse has already been viewed by another purchaser today.

Walk away if a blood test is refused no matter how good the excuse sounds.

Don't take bagged food they give you "to make the changeover slowly".

Ask to tack up the horse yourself.

Never get on before seeing someone else get on.

Agree with all of this especially the bagged food. I had this and the 6 bags of food were all laced with bute!!

 

[onemoretime]

I went to see a potential riding school pony advertised as having very mild, easily controlled sweetitch. When we arrived he had huge red raw, rubbed patches all over his body, the sellers explanation was that their friend had added tumeric to his feed and he must be allergic to it. The other weird thing there was there were hundreds of teabags lying in the field, they told me it was to kill ragwort - I certainly hadn't heard that one before!

The witholding water is an age old trick used to calm horses. The other thing that seems to be on the rise is dealers offering horses for sale then when things go wrong claiming they were selling on behalf of the owner so you have no come back on them.

The dodgy Scottish dealer who caught me is into that one and has caught people!

 

[onemoretime]

Ask to see the horse tacked up, watch carefully when the tack comes towards it and when the girth is tightened.

Check the seller has not taken water out of the horses field/stable as dehydration makes a horse sleepy.

Check the horses stable for signs of crib biting/windsurfing and check it doesn't weave.

Film the rider riding the horse and have a conversation with the seller, asking each question, does the horse load, does it buck, does it rear etc. You then have evidence on tape.

Drape a jacket over a pole, on the floor randomly or on the side of a fence and watch the horses reaction to it.

Make sure you have the horse vetted, although in my situation it was pointless doing so, as it later transpired that the horse should never have passed the vetting in the first place.

And when the horse acts like a rodeo horse and they say "ooh he's never done that before" take it all with a pinch of salt! I do love the face I'm pulling on the last photo!

I love the "he's never done that before" one!

 

[GTRJazz]

You can never buy your perfect horse but you can make them over the years

 

[NotInTheKnow]

So I'm still looking for my impossible horse.

A recently discovered red flag is the seller's lack of good quality images and videos of the horse in their advert. It tells you there is no genuine desire from the seller to showcase the horse properly considering most buyers will have to travel great distance and carve out time to view them.

I am genuinely baffled by the poor quality videos especially (if they even have them at all) presented by most sellers when advertising horses online. One would think that advertising a horse for sale without a decent quality video in this day and age of smartphones is inexcusable.

In an ideal world, I think these 3 videos should be readily presented: 1) to show conformation at a 360-degree angle without tack 2) being ridden in 3 gaits and lateral movements in both reins 3) being trotted on hard and flat surface in a straight line both towards and away from the camera. At a minimum. I'd even go as far as how they are when being groomed, loaded and turned out.

Whenever I have to ask for these or any one of these, which a buyer shouldn't really have to, the vibe I usually get makes you feel like you've just asked the seller for their kidneys.

And who thought it was a smart idea to mask the audio with some catchy pop music? This has to stop. I'm not looking at these videos to be entertained! I'd like to hear the horse not just see it move even if it's not as accurate as seeing it live but at least it gives me some idea. You'd think people selling these horses don't need to be reminded of that.

Truthfully I see better quality online images and videos of used cars! And that is such a depressing thought.

All these intel being withheld will eventually come out one way or another during viewing and vetting anyway. So why not put these cards on the table now and save everyone involved the time, expense and hassle.

And this goes for a range of them, dealers, private sellers to well known breeders/studs, most of them don't do it.

Is this a 'dodgy' tactic? Are there actually genuine sellers of good quality horses who for whatever reason can't be bothered to take decent quality videos in the name of transparency?

 

[southerncomfort]

To be honest, unless the horse was a fair distance away (and these days I won't travel very far anyway), I'm not fussed about videos.

Video's can easily be misleading, and I'd rather see the horse in the flesh and make my own judgement.

One short video showing the horse in walk, trot, canter and popping a small jump is more than enough I would have thought.