SHB(GB) Grading Today

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LLT2 I feel really sorry for you and the other stallion owners...but the majority of those pictures are shocking!!
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OMG I have never seen a professional photographer take such awful pictures! Granted they have taken a "few" good ones, but 89% of the pictures do not put the stallions in good light, and show some of them to have really bad jumping techniques, both in front and behind. .

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Yes, even the pix of Wish Upon A Star make him look plain which is pretty hard to do, so if you are assessing them having not been there then the really bad ones look even worse than they were on the day

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Am I not right in thinking that the people who took the pictures have been the focus of discussions before on their poor picture taking??? Either that or the majority of stallions forward were of poor quality...which if only 7 passed would suggest that!

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I don't think it was that photographer, it was the one used for some of last year's Futurity's -- but thankfully never again. Actually this photographer called me this morning and asked if they could do the photography for Moulton and I said we already had one (Jan G's hubby of course :-)) so that was a close call. In fact, yesterday's guy does quite a bit for Addington and they are usually OK but part of the problem was that they didn't tell him until he got there that they wanted pixs from both arenas and he had to drum someone up at short notice to do it -- perhaps he would have been better sticking to his guns and doing only one arena.

As far as the standard goes there is a problem with people in this country not being able to stand back and look at their entire horse and think about what it has to contribute/can't contribuite to the breeding herd here. One stallion forward (I think probably Volatis knows which one :-)) has been failed by me already at three separate gradings and (just to prve my point) became the only stallion I have ever seen fall over in the loose jumping lane. He did fail yet again of course!

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The only good thing is that only 7 did pass, because going by the pictures alone (and I ask readers to note what I have said here before they jump down my throat) the others were not great.

Think the SSH pictures that Opie took are by far superior to those taken at the SHBGB grading!

I am going to open up a can of worms with the following statement
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....but...call me picky but are some people completely blind as to what they would class as a decent stallion (even for those who are not looking for a world beater!). The more I see what some people put forward for stallion gradings, the more I think that the UK will never have a hope in hell in their breeding prospects for the future!

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Not a can of worms as far as I am concerned, I totally agree, but the problem is that unless people are also encouraged by the studbooks to develop their individual slkills in stallion assessment -- and I'm not just talking owners here I am talking about developing the skills of home-bred grading judges to the same level as is required of WBFSH member stallion graders abroad -- then it is even harder to progress as to be honest not a lot of them know what they are looking at or for. Whilst it is very easy to pass a stallion that is a beautiful harmonius TB with a winning record as an Advanced eventer (even f he is 14 years old) it takes a different sort of specialist skill to recognise the forced outline and in fact rtaher limited talent of a what I would describe as a 'Schockmohle-d overcooked' jumper whilst at the same time allowing for a somewhat less advanced level of work from a horse that hasn't been through that sort of forcing house but has a far better natural jump. And as for describing a horse that was a little chesty as 'back at the knee' as they did in one case, then words fail me. If being a member of the WBFSH means anything it means using its workshops, general assemblies, judging seminars etc to upgrade and harmonise the standards of the studbook and its judges and that, sadly, is something that the majority of Uk studbooks have not -- or will not -- accept.

And that is yet another long-term problem we all need to raise pressure about.

BTW, at least one horse was visibly unlevel throughout his entire ridden and loose jumping phase (looked like quite a severe pelvis problem to me). If I had been judging it in a dressage test I would have sent it out after about 3 movements but they let it carry on. Why? They could have told the owner to re-present it on another day instead of putting the poor animal under such argualble cruel amount of stress.

Makes me wish I had taken up the offer of the Danes to work in the Press office at the Danish Stallion Grading in Herning last week end instead (which I usually do) as I would really have learned something there as I do every time I go -- but I never see any other British grading judges there of course <sigh>
 
god sounds like you've been in the wars again Anastasia. I'm getting better all the time, had the bars off my teeth on Monday so waiting to hear when my next op will be for the bone graft. Ate a sandwich today which was heaven, even if chewing is a rather slow process

very interesting post Ciss.
 
Not all the 19 Stallions actually went forward for grading! some were there just for their BSJA assessment!

The photos are terrible and out of the Stallions I saw none look anything like their photos, I also felt that sometimes the judges were too busy laughing and chatting and did not pay enough attention to the stallion they were supposed to be viewing, also I have never been to a Stallion grading, and I have been to a few over the last 20 years, were the horses did not seem to be assessed on a hard surface absolutely stunned by that one, all in all from what I saw a very poor show from the SHB!
 
Anastasia you are SO right the standard of horse brought forward was awful. I mean awful.Most were only nice riding types at the best.The only two i really thought had real 'stallion ' quality were the Gribaldi x Houston [WisH apon a Star] and ....runs off to find book with details in.......Champagne! He was really loose moving and boy could he jump!!!
Also saw the one that CISS saw lame behind, and he was at least 3/10's lame so quite visable.
What i thought was strange was why they said Ted was dressage passed???? Like Ciss says there is no dressage/ jumping definition in the SHB book so why did they anounce that???.If his back was bad and that distance in the grid was awful short it will take account of why poor Ted had trouble getting to that back rail in the oxer. Even the older more experienced stallions had a problem with that.The other thing was when you did the 'coarse' it was ALL off the right rein???? Whats that all about????
On the whole i was very disapointed, having had a Champion of the grading , Ramexico stood reserve so it was a pretty good year, i am worried about presenting my Special D x Lancet colt....I simply dont think they have enough knowledge in term of the needs of the sport horse on the grading committiee or a true understanding of the range of bloodlines to give a good depth to the gene pool.
Feel very deflated now how is it possible to fail a horse on being too 'Green' if you are eligible from 3 yrs then being a bit 'green' should be taken into account.... That is not a fault as such.. a training issue yes but they should be turned away , as i have seen at the Hanoverian grading and told to represent whae the horse is better prepared.
Total shambles.... SO disapointed.
 
I too agree - what AWFUL photos!!!!!

Zubin-R's failing however I know is very controversial as he was failed on conformation - apparantly back at the knee and weak in the hocks. If this is so then why on earth was he SJ champion at the BEF futurity, with an excellent conformation score!? Fair enough failing on other merits but I think this is laughable as, as I am sure Ciss and the BEF guys will agree, it makes them look like idiots if SHB(GB) say that a horse they have scored so highly on conformation is later judged to be back at the knee, etc. and thus have very poor conformation. I know the owner is apparently very disheartened and considering not bothering standing him at stud this year at all now.

Never Say No, who was the PAVO 3 yr old champion last year was also failed on conformation. This makes a mockery of our young horse approval systems such as PAVO and BEF as it is basically saying that neither of them no what a correctly put together horse looks like IMO.
 
Firstly, a huge 'Well done' to Teddy, Mat and HG.
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However, now reading the other reports and discrepencies of opinion between graders at the SHB(GB) and the evaluators at the BEF Futurity, I'm really starting to worry about whether to present my colt in the autumn or not. It is not a cheap exercise, esp as I will have to send him away to have help with the jumping side of things but I do want to be confident that he will be assessed by people who know, and care, about what they are doing.
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If he is not good enough, then so be it but it is really worrying that a horse that was Champion SJ at the BEF Futurity can be failed twice on conformation.
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Something is very wrong somewhere.
 
Hear hear Bananaman. Personally I am more inclined to go with the BEF and PAVO opinions that the SHB(GB) one at the moment. As I have already posted beforehand, SHB(GB) failed stallions such as One More Tiger on conformation as well as a lack of competition record (NOT something that should be a failable offence IMO). This stallion has gone on to prove himself in the breeding shed as he now has many youngsters that are consistently proving themselves in the show ring.

This SHB(GB) grading has only served to further prove (to me at least) of the dire need in this country for some sort of longer term grading system – maybe not a 70 or 100 day tst but something like a 30 day test as it will give the stallions more opportunity to prove themselves
 
Am going to try and pick up on a few things said:

CISS - I think that British graders need to do a lot more judging before I would class a lot of them as competent stallion graders!! This is why I would only put a stallion to a grading that has European judges, as these guys have to go through years of training and they have a comprehensive system in place for moving up the ladder (so to speak) to eventually having the knowledge base to grade stallions that will hopefully produce the next generation of sport horses. Even have to do the same for the mares and foals.

I feel I have learned so much more by having the unique opportunities of standing alongside these judges whilst gradings foals, mares and stallions. The Hannoverians have the right attitude in Germany whereby they do lots of Breed Orientation Courses to allow breeders to grade horses alongside their best judges, and this is what I feel the UK seriously lacks!

VOLATIS -
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what helps is that I have such a sympathetic hubby (NOT) who was shouting at me in the airport asking why I was on the deck....LOL...I think he knew by the look on my face that he had just asked the most stupid question!
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Glad to hear you are making progress, it must have been an awful few weeks for you, but am hoping you now see light at the end of the tunnel although the progress has been slow for you.

PARTOOW - Have you thought about grading your guy with the "former" BWBS or even the SSH? Both are using foreign judges. Think the BWBS still uses Dr Senckenberg who is a superb chap with a lot of knowledge! Stallions should be judged according to age. You cannot expect a 3 year old to be in the same category as a 6 year old, as I would be expecting a lot more from the older stallions than the younger ones.

HORSENUT - another of the stallions on the Brightwells list did not fair so well at the gradings, so huge amount of moneys does not necessarily mean grading success. In fact a stallion forward at the SSH grading this year was purchased for a huge sum of money as a foal in Holland, but he failed on poor conformation.

ALSO and again I am going to be jumped on for saying this, but the reason Brightwells sell most of these stallions over here is because they have not been deemed good enough for the Continent!

EVENTRIDER23 - I think what you need to think of is that a stallion grading has to be looked at entirely differently that a dressage competition (which the PAVO is) or other show (which basically the futurity is). For instance a horse can have poor conformation (i.e. small feet, back/over at the knee, toed in/out, sickle hocked etc) but go on to be a good sports horse, but you would not want to breed from it because of the conformation faults. There were several stallions that had really poor conformation faults at the SSH, but the judges did say that they would go on to become good sports horses, but they did not have the qualities to be breeding horses.
 
Anastasia: I realise that different societies will judge differently, etc. however, the one thing that should be in certain respects similar is the conformation judging. I am sorry but if a horse receives a 9.5 or 10 for that in one society then it should stand to reason that it will NOT be over at the knee, sickle hocked, etc. I am sorry but regardless of a horse’s suitability to a sport, these are major conformational faults and should be judged accordingly. It’s suitability to its chosen sphere should then be judged separately. Therefore, it stands to reason that a horse, regardless of whether it is a SJer, show horse, eventer, whatever, that has a high conformational score with another reputable (albeit not stallion grading) society, then that horse should get a reasonable score on a conformational front with other societies. That is to say this will be the case if we are to ever be able to have confidence in our judging/grading societies in this country. BTW I meant the eventing section at PAVO with Never Say No…not the dressage 

Of course I appreciate that a horse’s suitability to a sport and whether it is good enough to breed from are 2 very different things…..I mean would you breed from a gelding like Ringwood Cockatoo based on conformation….but this doesn’t affect his ability. However I do think that conformation judging needs to have SOME conisistency….a horse that receives a 9.5/10 somewhere, regardless of it’s competitive sphere should not under any circumstances be back at the knee as this is a major fault in any conformational view, regardless of a horse’s ability in a sport.
 
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Am going to try and pick up on a few things said:

CISS - I think that British graders need to do a lot more judging before I would class a lot of them as competent stallion graders!! This is why I would only put a stallion to a grading that has European judges, as these guys have to go through years of training and they have a comprehensive system in place for moving up the ladder (so to speak) to eventually having the knowledge base to grade stallions that will hopefully produce the next generation of sport horses. Even have to do the same for the mares and foals.

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Abslutely right :-). The sad thing is that those of us who have done that sort of thing (I did it mainly with DV) are by deinition usually out of the GB studbook system becuase we want to learn / use our skills and no UK studbook normally wants to use them -- eitehr becias ethey are diaghter studbooks which cannot or UK studbooks which have no way of developing home-bred judges in any effectiev way and ae afraid to judge judges thta might have received their training elsewhere (ie who would threaten their comfy inward looking world view)

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I feel I have learned so much more by having the unique opportunities of standing alongside these judges whilst gradings foals, mares and stallions. The Hannoverians have the right attitude in Germany whereby they do lots of Breed Orientation Courses to allow breeders to grade horses alongside their best judges, and this is what I feel the UK seriously lacks!.

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Absolutely right -- the only wya to learn but I can think of at least one studbook to which it would be a complete anathema <sigh>

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ALSO and again I am going to be jumped on for saying this, but the reason Brightwells sell most of these stallions over here is because they have not been deemed good enough for the Continent!

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Not by me you are not. Aghain spot on and had to be said.

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EVENTRIDER23 - I think what you need to think of is that a stallion grading has to be looked at entirely differently that a dressage competition (which the PAVO is) or other show (which basically the futurity is). For instance a horse can have poor conformation (i.e. small feet, back/over at the knee, toed in/out, sickle hocked etc) but go on to be a good sports horse, but you would not want to breed from it because of the conformation faults. There were several stallions that had really poor conformation faults at the SSH, but the judges did say that they would go on to become good sports horses, but they did not have the qualities to be breeding horses.

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Actually I am afraid your conception of the Futuirty is wrong here. What it absolutely is not is 'just another show'. The evaluators (unlike some stallion graders in the UK can I could think of) have almost all done either breed familiarisation/grading judge courses and some are actually graders for other WBFSH members abroad (prophet in home land stiff etc). Evaluators thereofr eregard correct conformation as absolutley uppermost for long-terms oundness in the horses before them (why train a horse to say GP and then have it break down beciase of a fault that was there all along) and the only thing that is not atken account of is masculinity/feminity as this is a factor in grading but has nothing to do with success as a competition horse. Severla high-scoring colts with the Futurity have faiekd grading becuase they were not masculine enough and no one would have a problem with that (except the woners presumably who couldn;t see the problem until it was pointed out to them) but that is another issue.

It is all down to education, edication, eductaion but iof people or organisations consier themselevs too grand to learn (and don;t even ever send any reps to WBFSH jude seminars) then what progress cna we hope for?
 
Ciss - really interesting to see your responses, and as someone who will have the first time experience of presenting our yearling at the Futurity evaluation in July, I would feel much more confident in have him evaluated by judges who, as you say, have done breed familiarisation and judging evaluation courses and (hopefully) will have had experience of WBFSH abroad.... The professionalism of the judging at the Zangersheide stalllion approvals in Lanaken in February was outstanding, didn't see any conferring during the actual presenting, totally focussed on the horses, and the idea of the judges "gossiping and laughing" is just inconceivable!!! They were very tough, but it also felt like a very fair process.

And it is difficult for the amateur breeder to understand why Zubin should have failed on conformation when he gained a 9.5 in the Futurity .... So keep pushing for more professionalism, consistency across the judging process, and a clear training ladder for judges, Ciss, i'm sure that it will happen in the end - its just that (sorry being controversial here) I think that in the UK we are often too attached to the "gifted amateur/who you know" approach, and also just absurdly suspicious of and reluctant to learn from others - especially from the continent! ** ducks to avoid incoming missiles**
 
Totally agree with you Ciss. I personally am putting my youngsters forward to the futurity this year as I think that there are some amazing young horses coming up that have come through the BEF ranks. It now just remains for the UK societies to get their heads and judges out of the dark ages and thus judge the horses accordingly and correctly!!! The biggest problem with these judges now in this particular instance IMO is that their lack of knowledge has now led to a ‘black mark’ on these very nice and IMO suitable stallions heretofore unblemished records. The fact that this society has previously failed gradings due to lack of competition records (at 3 and 4 yrs old!) is just laughable. I am sorry but I personally would not expect any 3 or 4 yr old to have any big competition record. None of the (much stricter and more reputable) European societies consider age and record to be a deciding factor.
 
Huge well done HG
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I dont rate any of the UK stud books much at all except the Hann one which has German judges and what most of you are saying on here is what my hubby has said for years about the UK (he lived and trained in Germany for 9 years) Someone asked on here the other day why wouldnt i use a stallion outside of my 2 stud books (Hann and Old) and all above explains perfectly why! If i ever breed a horse good enough to grade it will be sent to Germany. I have no idea why people think their Geese are Swans... but i guess there is always someone with a Goose of a mare to use it on!!!!!
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Hmmm not great pic's at all but to give the photographer a break, very hard to get a nice pic of a horse stuck on the forehand which everyone of those horses were!!! I wouldn't have given 30p for one mentioned earlier!!! Me thinks the riders could have done better too!!!


Runs and hides..........
 
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ALSO and again I am going to be jumped on for saying this, but the reason Brightwells sell most of these stallions over here is because they have not been deemed good enough for the Continent!

i agree
 
Am I missing something or is the GELDING Accord O that heads the Brightwells sales list uncommonly like the STALLION Accordo that did so well at the SSH grading?

(Not meaning to imply in following on from horsenut's post, that he is any way a reject; in fact I really rather like him. Or them. )

As for the poorer quality horses appearing at auction here- no-one is being forced to buy them. Maybe we should give the judges a break and start using & cultivating our own judgement. There are plenty of quality animals in this country AND abroad; no-one is forced to buy or use the poorer ones.

I can't help wondering where the bad warmbloods come from, if foreign judging is so effective. I would hate to be a judge; it must be one hell of a difficult job and a thankless task; and if I WERE a British judge I think I'd sling in the towel at the suggestions on here that only the Continentals can do it right.

I have seen what I would class as very faulty horses graded, however attentively and earnestly, by foreign judges; horses that I would NOT use on my (imperfect and to many people, perhaps ordinary) mares; because far from improving on the mare they would detract from her own good qualities, IMHO.

Presumably the judges saw something in these animals that I was not seeing or was not considering important; if so, their assessment must have been effectively performance based rather than conformation based (in that the horse could move or jump or had this quality of "masculinity" which no-one has been able to define yet), but choosing a sire for what it can do rather than how it is made was something criticised in earlier posts, although I can't see how, if we're breeding sportshorses, we can actually escape the need for this.

If you doubt this, have a look at - just as an example- the latest Zangersheide catalogue. Have a look at the shoulders, hocks and forelegs and general harmony of some of those horses, and go figure. Just going by the catalogue and DVD, they have huge ability, they can certainly jump, they seem to be right in their heads, they are beautifully presented; certainly wouldn't say "don't use"- but there are conformation faults there that if passed by a British judge, without the glitz and good presentation, in a too-small ring with an audience of British Breeding people filled with typical British low self esteem, would spawn YARDS of criticism on here. (Or should that be metres?
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Interestingly, the Z stallion most people drooled over on an earlier post was one who had better conformation than most of the others, including (what always looks good)- a really good shoulder. A good, old-fashioned, well-laid-back BRITISH sort of shoulder.
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Was just reading through the forum, and felt that I had to write a comment, we were at the grading on Monday, and watched all the stallions, I cannot believe that Zubin r failed, for us he was one of the best and had everything that is desirable in a stallion, movement, conformation, scope and technique over a fence and presence. But then these qualities made him BEF champion. Surely if his conformation was bad enough to fail him, then the faults would have been picked up by BEF as earlier said. I feel the trouble is that the SHB are looking to breed country standard show horses, not the next Olympic horse, and that is why most people look abroad for good showjumpers/dressage horses. I also feel very sorry and disgusted that one of Britain’s best young stallions is unable to be used due to what seems to be politics in breeding. A very sad time for British Breeding.
 
Yes but EVENTRIDER zubin had failed one grading prior to this grading anyway and you must remember the futurity is about their potential in a sphere not the potential as a stallion
 
Im sorry, im new to this, so TFS are you saying that the BEF are not judging comformation correctly, surely if a horse has a 9.5 at BEF then the comformation of the horse be it stallion, mare or gelding should be good, whether you are judging for breeding purposes or for top level competition.
 
well yes there should be some comparison between the two marks but i beleive the stallion grading must be more stringent (Sp??) as obviously they dont want conformation weaknesses being passed on to youngstock
 
Firstly, congratulations on Teddy passing!
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I agree with a lot of what anastacia and springfall say. The continental breed socs are a LOT more stringent in their requirements. It is often the case that failed stallions or inferior quality stallions are put forward for grading with socs such as SHB(GB), the AES etc which are based on a 1 day show with no performance test. I know pics can be deceiving, but many of the stallions in the SHB(GB) pics didn't even look like they'd make nice geldings never mind being stallion prospects
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I was also horrifed by some of the stallions in H&H's breeding issue - many were ghastly and expensive to boot: pets that someone has jumped onto the stallion bandwagon with due to sentimental reasons and the ego boost of owning a stallion
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Personally I view warmblood stallions registered with UK breed socs such as AES with suspiscion, asking why if they are of stallion quality have they not been graded with their parent warmblood studbook? Did they fail their grading for example? Even when buying a gelding I would prefer to view a KWPN/hann/trak as opposed to one reg with SHB(UK), AES etc. The reason being I can check out so much more about that geldings bloodines, how that family performs, what their strengths and weaknesses are etc.

The only exception I would make as regards a warmblood reg SHB(UK), AES etc would be the offspring of a stallion I knew personally and then it would be down to my own impressions of him and his offspring. It isn't a perfect world and there are many amazing stallions that are not graded KWPN/hann etc for perfectly valid reasons.

I know this sounds very snobby and in no way am I putting down the quality stallions graded into SHB(UK), AES etc but as a person who can only afford one horse and who is not an expert like many of the breeders on ths forum, I have to use a stallion where I feel confidence in the studbook which has graded him and where the foal would be more likely to realise a good price.
 
Alleycat - just to add further to the debate! - we were at the Zangersheide Open Days in February, and watched the stallion approval process over two days. There were something like 57 presented, of whom 15 were approved; many of those who were recommended to represent, or who didn't make it to the second day, were Z breeding. I agree that in the catalogue and DVD some of the stallions look weaker on conformation than they do "in the flesh", but I have to say that all the stallions that we saw on the Open Day were incredibly impressive. Some of that is training and presentation - well, we can do that here! - and some of it quality of horseflesh - I think that we are begining to work really hard at that over here, and there are some really impressive stallions standing in the UK. We are probably more willing to use a greater range of type (WB/ISH/TB/etc) than on the continent, and I think that this can only be healthy for the future, if we are picking quality at the same time. But I guess that does make it difficult for the judges ... no-one is underestimating the difficulty of the task that they have! What we should be aiming for is greater consistency, transparency, quality of training for judges, and greater professionalism overall. Not much then!
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"but choosing a sire for what it can do rather than how it is made was something criticised in earlier posts, although I can't see how, if we're breeding sportshorses, we can actually escape the need for this.

If you doubt this, have a look at - just as an example- the latest Zangersheide catalogue. Have a look at the shoulders, hocks and forelegs and general harmony of some of those horses, and go figure."

Correct. Zangersheide is a performance stud book NOT a beauty pagent. If British breeding concentrates solely on looks, we're knackered.
 
Alleycat the gelding is in fact a stallion...
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The Continentals must be doing something right in their selection (or a damm sight better than we do over here)...just look at the leading Studbooks in the dressage and showjumping.

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I can't help wondering where the bad warmbloods come from, if foreign judging is so effective

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Taken from the KWPN covering stats only for 2007:
Canturano - 307
Dreamcatcher - 208
Indoctro - 342
Johnson - 296
Lord Leatherdale - 171
Numero Uno - 225
San Remo - 207
Verdi - 314
Warrant - 220

Just a handful covering over 2,000 mares, so naturally if stallions are covering that amount of mares not all the offspring are going to be Olympic standard...
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Nobody is saying the UK cannot breed good horses, we are one of the leaders in the TB industry, but again this is through selective breeding, using some very top class stallions. And some of the European studbooks are trying to get more TB stallions through their breeding programmes.

The UK also do well in producing breeds like the Irish Draught or Cleveland Bays etc, with many crossing these with TB or WB to produce more of a sport horse, that are doing well in sport. Or the majority of the pony breeds all decend from the UK.

The Irish are also very well known for producing high level showjumpers, as are the French, but again they pay attention to what they are using. I also see that the Irish are pulling in more and more Dutch stallions to put onto their Irish mares. In fact one of the KWPN dressage stallions has just been purchased by an Irish Studfarm.

I am sorry but unless a judge has many many hours of judging a horse then I will always be sceptical on their experience. The UK is not grading enough for British judges to get this kind of experience (unless they spend more time going to other gradings, or the UK grade a much higher number of horses per year). The Hanoverians, Oldenburgs, Trakehners, KWPN etc are viewing hundreds and thousands of horses each year.

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but there are conformation faults there that if passed by a British judge, without the glitz and good presentation, in a too-small ring with an audience of British Breeding people filled with typical British low self esteem, would spawn YARDS of criticism on here. (Or should that be metres? )


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Am sorry but I would disagree with you here. I was at a top dressage yard in Holland last week where one of the best young dressage stallions over there was shown to me, in a small area, with no glitz or glamour...and he was amazing. He did not need a 20 x 40 arena to look good, as the natural ability was there for anyone to see.

I am also not saying that the UK does not have some fantastic studfarms, as there are many who are producing superb young horses. Many going un-noticed because people go abroad to buy from there because there is "more selection" or "cheaper horses" (as I have heard many times on forums). I, for one, would LOVE IT if we had many many more, as I want to promote horses that are bred in the UK, and say we are producing the same or better than the continent.

I would love to breed a horse that reaches the highest level, but I also get great enjoyment out of hearing how any of our youngsters are doing regardless of their sporting achievements.

I am also not telling anyone that the only decent stallions are abroad, that is not correct as there are many in the UK as well. I also own a stallion and breed my own foals (like many on this forum), so of course I am hoping that many people in the UK will use British based stallions.

All I am trying to say is that the continentals have years of experience in producing and grading sport horses. I am also not adverse to the fact that sometimes they get it wrong.

Many many years ago there were a good lot of British bred horses on both our showjumping and dressage teams, but we are seeing this less and less, which is sad. So unless we "try" and produce better horses by not only using good stallions, but putting a big importance on the mares, then this will never happen. Although I am seeing more and more better quality horses being produced now, and people putting more importance on their mare and stallion selections, so we are heading in the right direction.
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Ciss - I have a question for yourself. Why do the BEF not advertise their list of judges with their experience?? Also my apologies for picking up wrongly about the Futurity...having not entered before I obviously picked this up wrong.
 
Rufusbluemoon thanks for sharing that, and many good words there. Ken I agree on what you are saying also.

On the looks point of view, if you have an ugly stallion then by goodness it (or its offspring) would have to do exceptionally well in sport, because everyone likes a pretty horse do they not
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......as the chances of selling an ugly foal are always harder.....
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And lets not forget a............CHESNUT foal.....I know I know....scary thought for breeders in the UK....
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Lord...let me have all black foals pleaaassseeee......
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[ QUOTE ]
And lets not forget a............CHESNUT foal.....I know I know....scary thought for breeders in the UK....
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Lord...let me have all black foals pleaaassseeee......
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[/ QUOTE ]

PMSL!! I distinctly remember asking you this about Vision
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