SHB(GB) Grading Today

I think some of you are missing a real point here, although many are absolutely spot on. My experience there and from some info on here there were a couple of stallions gained good marks from BEF and a stallion that gained very good marks from Selle Francais studbook judges and the SHB had problems with them so there is a problem somewhere here!

The despicable behaviour I saw from the judges laughing, gossiping rather than individually assessing a stallion and then combing their marks, let alone viewing conformation and movement solely on an indoor school flooring that needed leveling ridiculous!

From my opinion the double in the loose jumping should have been a treble as in European studbooks and was clearly too long for the younger less experienced jumpers especially 3/4 year olds but nothing was done to change this to enable the horse to show his jump rather then stretch to ensure he made it cleanly which any good jumping horse will do!!

None of this requires a brain surgeon's intelligence it just takes common sense and a good basic knowledge of horses, if the SHB are only judging horses to look like show hunters than do not call yourself Sport Horse Breeding!!!!!!

I saw at least three stallions full display that passed the full grading, not all 18 were there for full grading some just for BSJA!! and I have to say I personally would not use any of them not because they had faults but I did not like their type, I have been breeding sport horses successfully and to International and would say yes they may breed some good hunter types, undoubtedly some jumpers etc, along the way, but I thought as a country we were looking to breed sport horses of the future not just show hunter types!

SHB needs to get rid of the show hunter judges and get some proper Stallion judges in otherwise by all means continue producing Show Hunter types but stop trying to assess Spot Horse Stallions please leave it to the people who know how to do this then maybe British Breeding can continue to improve!
 
Hi all new here. Just reading through all the posts, I don’t think anyone is trying to discredit any horse which has passed the grading. Every society demands different requirements in an ideal world there would be one unified grading structure for all but we don’t live in an ideal world. Every grading system has plusses and negatives but I think the points that have been raised all have meaning.
Everybody has an opinion and everybody is entitled to one.
This is my opinion -
I have known Zubin R since a foal and followed him closely as I have bred horses by the same sire and all have done well show jumping. When he attended his grading with the AES he was green and immature and this day came too soon for him. He also lacked production for the day and not many get through as a 2 year old.
I watched him at the futurity last year where he showed fantastic scope over a fence and athleticism and did very well at the awards.
After reading these posts I went and read the rule book for the futurity and the purpose is not to asses a horse as a stallion but to asses it in the category in which it is entered, so in this case he was entered as a show jumper and they assessed him as a potential athlete in this discipline.
The beginning of this year 2 show jumpers who have represented Britain went to see Zubin R both liked him and offered to take him under there wing for the young horse classes. Both these jockeys have full yards and would not take a horse that in there opinion did not have the scope to do the owner and themselves justice which then leaves us with the grading he has just attended. After attending young horse evaluations and stallion grading on the continent the emphasis is on ability to perform. As one society stated a horse with the potential ability to be better than average is harder to find than a horse with correct conformation this does not mean to say they lower there standards but if a horse showed better than average ability in a discipline they would overlook certain conformation defects if the ability out weighed them. Which shows that the futurity is working as it has found a good horse and has made this fact aware to the correct channels in show jumping which means the horse has the best window in which to succeed which is what it is there fore to promote a British bred horse ridden by a British rider then the breeding community abroad may start to take note. This makes me look at the grading Zubin R has just attended, if they think and it is only the opinion of the judges in the ring that his conformation is not correct they are within there rights to fail him. But then looking at the judges listed could they really tell whether a horse has a serious potential in a discipline. As in my opinion they are looking for horses with as correct as possible conformation to compete within there society. There society is a showing society so are they looking for conformation over ability? In my opinion the answer is yes, which then leaves the question where would a young, modern sport horse, whose ability is sort after by 2 top international jockeys go to. to gain recognition for sport above showing?
This is only my opinion but one which seems to be coming more apparent in the ever changing world of horse breeding.
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Very well put (and welcome to HHO) i totally agree, i have always looked at SHBGB as a showing stud book, maybe a change of name for them is needed and then a "sport" horse stud book opened for the non show horses
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Well said.

My point is though that 'type' and 'conformation' are 2 very different things.
Regardless of whether the horse is a show jumper or a show horse - back/over at the knee are MAJOR conformational defects andregardless of if a judge is looking at a horse for its suitability as a jumper/dressage/show horse, then this fault must be noted as a conformational fault! I am not saying this will have an effect on the horse's suitability to discipline but a judge looking at conformation should look for the same basic things, regardless of what the horse is set to do, whether it is being graded with teh AES/SHB(GB)/Zangersheide/Selle Francais, etc. conformation should be just that and there should thus be some consistency between the judging of this if we are ever to have complete faith in the young horse approval systems such as BEF and PAVO
 
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Ciss - would you like to see something where judges have to attend training courses or have to go abroad to judge before being allowed to judge and approve stallions, almost like they have to have a licence ( I have a friend who owns Suffolk Punches and she had to do training and so many classes with guidance before being allowed to judge on her own).

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Yes, except that 'going abroad to judge' is more likely to be 'going abroad to learn how to judge' as very few people I know (perhaps 3 - 4 at the most) that are based in the counry have ever been members of grading panels abroad -- but quite a number (all ignored by 'showing' studbooks of course) have done breed famialirization/grading judge courses but tend to be rarely used except by the Futurity.

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As ken says if Zangersheide GB starts and are tougher on the gradings using experienced judges (as an example Hugo Cooreman has 40 years experience as a foal inspector and judge) as a breeder I would be more inclined to look at the stallions in that studbook as I would feel more cofident about the quality of them compared to other studbook stallions in the UK.

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And if Zangersheide starts up as a daughter studbook here (and I do hope it does) is there any chance that it would develop dressage and eventing sections too (that would raise the foal reg figures for WBFSH voting purposes :-)) and possibily conduct grading judge training courses as well Ken? If it did that would *really* set the other studbooks back on their hocks!

Just a thought ....
 
Well I am totally in agreement with a lot of the discussions on where SHB needs to improve if it is to be taken seriously as a Sport Horse Breeding studbook, but I am a memebr of the SHB and am actively looking for an SHB graded stallion to use on my SHB graded broodmare this season. But I am not blind to the faults of the SHB and I know too well that they ahve far too many hunter judges on their books and no where near enough sporthorse judges. But I think the concept/the idea of a British based sport horse stud book, that is in no way restricted by pedigree (like for example Hanoverian or Trakehner) can encompass so much of what is great about British breeding (1 capital B) is just what we need, hence why i register some of my stock SHB and why I am looking for an SHB graded stallion.

So please stallion owners of SHB graded stallions,revel in your success with your lovely stallions,. after all people are questioning why some very nice young horses didn't pass, not why yours did. But also accept that SHB still need to get away from their HIS past and truely become a sport horse society, or change their name back to HIS and stick to the show ring.
 
And if Zangersheide starts up as a daughter studbook here (and I do hope it does) <font color="purple"> that's a definate </font> is there any chance that it would develop dressage and eventing sections too <font color="purple"> definately not </font> (that would raise the foal reg figures for WBFSH voting purposes :-)) and possibily conduct grading judge training courses as well Ken? <font color="purple"> possibly/probably </font> If it did that would *really* set the other studbooks back on their hocks <font color="purple"> it's a commercial world </font>
 
Ken: Good news about the definite and the possibly/probably and pity about the definietely not -- but even a cohort of correctly trained sj grading judges would be a major step in the right direction, so really looking forward to that.

Tough for the dressgae breeders though becuase I suppose the eventers can still go to SHBGB. But perhaps the revamped/renamed BWBS will be able to take care of them?
 
LLT2 I have supported you all the way, as you well know!! You know fine well that I am delighted for you and your success with Teddy and the rest of your horses.

I only made any negative comments when I saw the pictures, and that was on the quality of the pictures and some of the stallions (which is no more or less than I would have said on any grading posted on the H&amp;H, including the SSH one recently). Plus if only 7 passed (which your Teddy was one of them!) then it shows the difference in quality anyways, and that is not negative to any stallion that passed, but positive.

As others have said, people will say a variety of things about stallion gradings, or any gradings for that matter. The AES and SSH have both had their fair share of people views and comments, so the SHBGB is not alien to this either, nor is the Futurity, that has in the past had its fair share of negativity.

I am sorry that your thread was overtaken by discussions regarding the UK grading process, and it should have been made a new post, however, sometimes posts just take off, as you well know.

However, what has really hurt is your insinuations with regards to me...
 
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So please stallion owners of SHB graded stallions,revel in your success with your lovely stallions,. after all people are questioning why some very nice young horses didn't pass, not why yours did. But also accept that SHB still need to get away from their HIS past and truely become a sport horse society, or change their name back to HIS and stick to the show ring.

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Hear, hear.
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I'm afraid that a stallion at public stud is a product for sale &amp; therefore customers will &amp; are perfectly right to discuss the merits of the product.

hg, from reading this thread I see little that is rude about your stallion. I am not a fan of shb, this doesn't mean I think everything that they pass is crap! It is always difficult when getting such a broad spectrum of types &amp; breeds to grade. However, I do think they are focused in general on the showing/ hunter model rather than exceptional movers &amp; it is not a studbook I would turn to to look for a dressage stallion (that doesn't mean I wouldn't use a stallion because he is graded with them though).

I wish stallion owners didn't take mild criticism of their animals so personally. I think in the UK, there is a tendency to not critically evaluate our own stallions, we are too emotionally involved in them (especially females with 1 or 2 stallions rather than the big commerical studs).

Just because Teddy isn't my cup of tea, it doesn't mean that he isn't worthy as a stallion. It's just he is not the type that I like &amp; would therefore be attempting to breed. Evidently this is a view that many people share otherwise there would not be the diversity in type &amp; breed in dressage stallions today,

I always have a lot more respect for stallion owners who can offer constructive criticism of their own animals, &amp; suggest what mare types should not be used with their boy for optimum results. Scott Hassler in the US has always impressed me in this respect, first at Hilltop &amp; now at Hassler Dressage. The ultimate professional in picking &amp; producing stallions (just look at the results rousseau is getting now) as well as advising mare owners as to which stallion is best used to complement their mare.
 
PMSL... Good on Rafi, must stick up for his little (literally) brother
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I'm afraid that a stallion at public stud is a product for sale &amp; therefore customers will &amp; are perfectly right to discuss the merits of the product.

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That would be fine, if that what was happening in this thread but it wasn't... basically the SHB were being ripped apart which basically devalued the merit of being graded with them and makes you wonder why you bother... the UK breeding industry would move forward alot better if people spent less time ripping apart what we have and spent more time thinking of ways to improve it and acted upon it rather than sit back and slate it!

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hg, from reading this thread I see little that is rude about your stallion.

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I never said anyone was rude, I said that by trashing the studbook you are trashing the stallions that passed...all of them! My point was as above by slating the Studbook you devalue the stallions that have passed (all of them... I wasn't just referring to my own!)

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I wish stallion owners didn't take mild criticism of their animals so personally

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I have always been open to constructive critism as many people will tell you and I know my horses strong and weak points and have openly discussed them with many people! I don't find it necessary to rip into something or slate something to the extent that has been... as I have said before, far better if less time was spent slating thing and more time was spent on trying to improve things!

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(especially females with 1 or 2 stallions rather than the big commerical studs).

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You have no idea of how many stallions I have or have not owned...

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Just because Teddy isn't my cup of tea, it doesn't mean that he isn't worthy as a stallion. It's just he is not the type that I like &amp; would therefore be attempting to breed. Evidently this is a view that many people share otherwise there would not be the diversity in type &amp; breed in dressage stallions today

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I don't think Teddy is everyones cup of tea far from it but he has his place and has earnt his right to keep his balls by passing his grading... people critise when stallions aren't graded and say you shouldn't use a stallion unless it's graded and then when they are graded they slate the system they are graded through, therefore devaluing the point of being graded... as said before, a little less of the ripping apart and slating and abit more of the looking at ways to improve things and things could get improved, why slaughter what you have, when you should be looking at ways to move forward and improve it!

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I always have a lot more respect for stallion owners who can offer constructive criticism of their own animals, &amp; suggest what mare types should not be used with their boy for optimum results.

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Probably the same as I have more respect for people who look for ways to improve on what they have and what they have got in place rather than sit back and slate it...

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I'm afraid that a stallion at public stud is a product for sale &amp; therefore customers will &amp; are perfectly right to discuss the merits of the product.

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That would be fine, if that what was happening in this thread but it wasn't... basically the SHB were being ripped apart which basically devalued the merit of being graded with them and makes you wonder why you bother... the UK breeding industry would move forward alot better if people spent less time ripping apart what we have and spent more time thinking of ways to improve it and acted upon it rather than sit back and slate it!


DQ
- a studbook is even more of a commercial product than a stallion &amp; I think we should all question the merits of the different studbooks, get involved with them &amp; push for change to improve them, to further the british breeding industry. There has been a lot of suggestions as to how the SHB could improve in this thread - more sport horse judges rather than showing people, judge education abroad, careful consideration of the importance of conformation vs performance etc. so I didn't see the need to repeat it in my post plus others such as ciss know much more than me about it. From a personal POV, I wish the SHB was better at PR, a bit friendlier on trade stands &amp; better updating of the website would be a help.

As a stallion owner who has put a lot of work into producing your boy &amp; paying large sums to the studbooks for his grading, reg &amp; mare &amp; foal fees, you have every right to question. All the best organisations are constantly looking to improve &amp; criticism of the existing status quo is a key component of this. Look at how the Hanoverian stud book has changed it's rules lately.


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hg, from reading this thread I see little that is rude about your stallion.

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I never said anyone was rude, I said that by trashing the studbook you are trashing the stallions that passed...all of them! My point was as above by slating the Studbook you devalue the stallions that have passed (all of them... I wasn't just referring to my own!)

DQ -
Show me the post where people said that SHB pass crap (I hear that a lot about another warmblood studbook but...). I think a lot of people were questioning whether their old fashioned approach is missing out good stallions, such as Nibeley Union Jack who was another controversial fail a couple of years ago. It is also confusing to the layman to see a horse getting really excellent marks for conformation in one official scheme such as the BEF, but then failing a stallion grading on it.

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I wish stallion owners didn't take mild criticism of their animals so personally

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(especially females with 1 or 2 stallions rather than the big commerical studs).

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You have no idea of how many stallions I have or have not owned...

DQ
This was a general comment, from my experience of the bulk of the UK market at the moment. It wasn't aimed at you, in fact I have no idea if you are male or female &amp; it is not really relevant to this discussion. I apologise if that remark was a little flippant, perhaps a better way of phrasing it would have been people who really love their individual stallions rather than treating them as a figure on a company balance sheet. It is always difficult to be impartial about something you care strongly about (as this thread shows
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Just because Teddy isn't my cup of tea, it doesn't mean that he isn't worthy as a stallion. It's just he is not the type that I like &amp; would therefore be attempting to breed. Evidently this is a view that many people share otherwise there would not be the diversity in type &amp; breed in dressage stallions today

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I don't think Teddy is everyones cup of tea far from it but he has his place and has earnt his right to keep his balls by passing his grading... people critise when stallions aren't graded and say you shouldn't use a stallion unless it's graded and then when they are graded they slate the system they are graded through, therefore devaluing the point of being graded... as said before, a little less of the ripping apart and slating and abit more of the looking at ways to improve things and things could get improved, why slaughter what you have, when you should be looking at ways to move forward and improve it!

DQ -
again, I don't see anyone saying teddy shouldn't be standing at stud or that SHB grading is not a good thing to have? I think you were spot on with your assesment of his market &amp; that he has a constructive part to play in the british stud scene.

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I always have a lot more respect for stallion owners who can offer constructive criticism of their own animals, &amp; suggest what mare types should not be used with their boy for optimum results.

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Probably the same as I have more respect for people who look for ways to improve on what they have and what they have got in place rather than sit back and slate it...

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DQ -
see above - but there has to be awareness &amp; acknowledgement of a problem before you can start considering effective solutions surely
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Horsegroupie a lot of studbooks get slated across a multitude of forums worldwide, the HHO is only a small fish in a rather large pond! The AES used to be top of the list for slating, the SSH and AES have both had there fair share (with some dodgy decisions), as has the other European studbooks. Somebody will always have something to say about something.

One just has to read Eurodressage after some of the decisions at stallion shows, but you dont see stallion owners then saying that their stallions are under valued because of it. They just get on with it. If anyone has a stallion of any worth then their performance and progeny will speak for themselves.

Also if people are going to post on public forums about stallion results at a grading then expect there to be a variety of comments. Your post starts "SHB(GB) Grading Results!" (quite a general heading), perhaps if you soley wanted to speak about your own stallion it would have been a little more prudent to post something like "Teddy's Grading Today"...thus making it more personal. The HHO is like any public forum and you cannot expect everybody to agree with you, as there are far too many individuals on here for that to happen.

As for changing the systems, well that is all well and good as long as those on the committee's welcome the change, or listen to their breeders, but that is no easy feat. They may think that their grading is one of the best
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The HIS/SHBGB has a long standing reputation for being showing orientated (as DQ1 pointed out), hence why half the time you cannot get into any showing classes unless your horse is with them.

Nobody else has said that they are slating the stallions barring yourself, so unfortunately you have made this become the issue, which if you read the posts correctly, it had nothing to do with it.

My suggestion is that you get on with your stallion and as I said above, his performance and future progeny should speak for themselves, so why worry about what people think of the society, because I dont see any of the other entrants doing that.
 
I didn't say my stallion was under valued because of it, I said it devalued the meaning of being graded with them... a slight difference... and there was someone else that said they felt the same... I am well aware all the studbooks get slated... I just find it unnecessary to slate them so heavily when that energy could get put into looking into ways of improving the system and people can only improve the system if they keep trying to do so, keep banging on the door so to speak, its all too easy to sit back and slate things but if people feel so strongly they need to get out there and keep trying to make the powers that be listen! and my post actually started with SHB(GB) Grading Today (Most reports start similarly ie SJ report usually starts... West Wilts BSJA Today!) and the only reason it changed to results is because someone asked which other stallions passed which I found out for them and I added the results so they knew I had put them on there for them!
 
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That would be fine, if that what was happening in this thread but it wasn't... basically the SHB were being ripped apart which basically devalued the merit of being graded with them quite! and makes you wonder why you bother... totally agree the UK breeding industry would move forward alot better if people spent less time ripping apart what we have and spent more time thinking of ways to improve it and acted upon it rather than sit back and slate it

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However.............

http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2319949/an/0/page/17

The comments passed on the thread above purposefully undermine the status of the AES and in exactly the same manner undermines the stallions graded with that studbook!

People do it all the time........... especially when they are pro and anti something ............

The British Studbooks all have their strengths and weaknesses and if there is one thing that I think everyone agrees on is that they all have room for improvement.

A studbook should be a work in progress and can only evolve by listening to constructive critisism, listening and learning.. the UK studbooks need to remain open to new ideals and concepts but sometimes progress is retarded by objections from its members moreso than those that manage them...

Introducing passports, compulsive micro chipping, DNA testing, X-RAYS, fertility testing and scoping all increase costs upon breeders &amp; stallion owners and its often a softer blow to introduce them one step at a time to appease.

Who knows perhaps one day we will have a UK studbook that includes stallion performance testing, a studbook that matches all the requirements of the EU studbooks, but in the meantime, progeny assessment and competition results are the only measurable methods of accurately evaluating a stalllions success as a reprocutive sire in and out of the UK............ regardless of a stallons "graded" status...... let the horses do the talking.........

In this particular scenario both the failed and successfully graded stallions are more than likely to breed anyway, as well as have the oppertunity to compete, I think it will be interesting to see what the outcome is five years down the line........ let the horses do the talking............
 
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By trashing the SHB grading you are trashing the horses that passed...all of them! If the system isn't good enough, then it implies the horses aren't either...

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don't just sit back and b*tch about it and slate it!... I won't say anymore... work to done!

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Your own quotes, and the first that mentioned "trashing the horses"
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Yes I noticed somebody else post about their already graded stallion, but not any of the other entrants, and the reason why is because a lot of stallion owners do not post on public forums because sometimes it is better to say very little and let your horse and stock do the talking when they are in the public domain.
 
I actually agree with you Opie and it would be lovely if we could all move forward to improving the system in this country to get to that point!

and for the record... I never slated the AES... my only comment was that the SHB were superbly organised, which for running to time and having enough people stewarding they are, the grading runs very smooothly and it makes the stallion owners life alot easier when they know where to be and at what time... and I gave the dates of the next grading... I do try not to slate the studbooks and other peoples stallions... people have worked hard in both but no one is perfect
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That would be fine, if that what was happening in this thread but it wasn't... basically the SHB were being ripped apart which basically devalued the merit of being graded with them quite! and makes you wonder why you bother... totally agree the UK breeding industry would move forward alot better if people spent less time ripping apart what we have and spent more time thinking of ways to improve it and acted upon it rather than sit back and slate it

[/ QUOTE ] couldn't have said better myself

The British Studbooks all have their strengths and weaknesses and if there is one thing that I think everyone agrees on is that they all have room for improvement.

A studbook should be a work in progress and can only evolve by listening to constructive critisism, listening and learning.. the UK studbooks need to remain open to new ideals and concepts but sometimes progress is retarded by objections from its members moreso than those that manage them...


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I agree with some of your post above Opie, and anyone who is a member or pays to register stock with a studbook is a stake holder &amp; a customer &amp; therefore has right to comment on how they think the studbook is being run.

The difficulty in sticking one's head above the parapet &amp; to suggest/criticise directly to the studbook management is political &amp; I would think that it is naive to think that politics is not a big factor in studbooks (UK &amp; Europe)

more &amp; more EU studbooks are setting up in the UK &amp; offering stallion gradings. Owners can vote with their feet, but wouldn't it be nice if the studbooks conducted some research with their members &amp; the sport horse industry at large to see what it is that British Breeders actually want. If this happened, I'm sure less people would be "slating" the studbooks or simply using foreign books.

I've always been surprised that there isn't an independent association of stallion owners in the UK. As a group, you could exert a pretty powerful influence on any of the UK studbooks
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I've always been surprised that there isn't an independent association of stallion owners in the UK. As a group, you could exert a pretty powerful influence on any of the UK studbooks
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I actually think that is a very good suggestion, if set up and run correctly would be a great thing to happen
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I've always been surprised that there isn't an independent association of stallion owners in the UK. As a group, you could exert a pretty powerful influence on any of the UK studbooks
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I actually think that is a very good suggestion, if set up and run correctly would be a great thing to happen
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there would be a lot of benefits apart from the political weight throwing
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buying co-ops for stud related products, shared advertising &amp; promotions e.g. stand at HOYS, glossy website directory with regular updates &amp; progeny showcases...

organising it though - I think it might be easier trying to sort out peace in the Middle East
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yes HG I noticed... :-) others were a tad more opinionated......
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It's interesting listening to everyones points of view and can see it from all sides, it has made some good reading nonethless, just a shame that Teddy was caught in the middle of the thread.....
 
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yes HG I noticed... :-) others were a tad more opinionated......
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Alas I can not be responisble for other people, I have enough trouble keeping myself out of mischief
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It's interesting listening to everyones points of view and can see it from all sides, it has made some good reading nonethless, just a shame that Teddy was caught in the middle of the thread.....

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Yes well... trust me to cause a long thread, mind you I have managed to stay out of trouble for quite awhile... it was only a matter of time before I cause a ruckus
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It was frustrating because it was abit like getting your party poppers out of your bag and finding your carton of drink has burst and made them all soggy
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You know what they say... todays news... next weeks chip wrapper (or something like that)
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Personally I would like to see all of the British studbooks working together, one standard protocol of grading to start with, but as quoted that would probably be as complicated as sorting out the problems in the Middle East........
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the main problem being that some would be worried about what the others would be gaining........... as opposed to recognising that pooling togther and singing the same hymn could put British Breeding on the map.
 
Interesting thought... As a mare owner I'd say you would run up against the problem of INFORMATION versus PROMOTION, though; without wishing to imply dishonesty, in a commercial world, stallion owners need play up the stallions' good qualities and to conceal or play down a horses' faults -or they just won't get takers in the horse's crucial early years at stud. Mare owners, ( and "breeding" in a general sense) on the other hand, need to expose the faults and balance them against the good qualities to judge whether or not to use the stallion... An organisation actively PROMOTING stallions would almost have a duty to play down the negative.

I found that when I was videoing horses; there was a real conflict between what I wanted to show- honest &amp; accurate information- and what the horses' owners wanted me to show; the horse at its best.I compromised by leaving in a "hint" of the fault; just a glimpse, thinking anyone wise enough to spot it would also be wise enough to give the horse credit for his good points; but I did feel my honesty just a bit compromised...and these were good stallions; the worst offender was a graded horse with huge, proven ability- and a rather gob-smacking conformational fault.

Edited to say this is re the stallion society idea. Wish I could type a bit quicker...
 
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