Sheep worrying

[Bellasophia]

Moobli ..can you do a separate post on non chase training?...I would love to know how you achieve that.
We live with herons on the fields,sheep round every corner..wild boar on the wooded hills..so I always keep my dogs on lead in these areas..I’ve probably trusted only two out of my last five dogs in this situation( my dogue de Bordeaux and my German bred poodle..working line)..I know your dogs are working dogs,plus the breed counts for a lot,but I’m very interested to hear more about the training that goes into this.
If you don’t have time for this..no problems as I know you live a busy working life.

also a quick qtn...does your gamekeeper go on horse back over the hills or on motorbike as many do today?I had this image of him galloping after the pointer dogs to bring justice to the sheep.

 

[palo1]

Genuine question (as someone with a dog that would chase sheep/pheasant/deer/boar given half the chance), how many dogs that chase actually attack? Don't get me wrong, chasing is just as dangerous especially if they are pregnant, but I keep seeing pictures of sheep being actually attacked and I can 100% say Daisy is only in it for the chase so I'm slightly curious as to what separates chasers from attackers.

I think it varies enormously; sometimes it is just luck that the sheep can keep running so it continues to be a 'chase'. Some dogs won't know how to 'attack' if a ewe is cornered tbh but that first time might be an opportunity for them to experiment with biting etc; I think that tends to be more likely if more than one dog is running sheep. Some dogs probably won't bite/attack but tbh the adrenaline and excitement of the chase makes an attack so much more likely. It is not something I would ever feel confident to predict and I would always assume that chasing is most likely to be followed up, where it was possible, by an attack Grim, just utterly grim.

 

[Moobli]

Moobli ..can you do a separate post on non chase training?...I would love to know how you achieve that.
We live with herons on the fields,sheep round every corner..wild boar on the wooded hills..so I always keep my dogs on lead in these areas..I’ve probably trusted only two out of my last five dogs in this situation( my dogue de Bordeaux and my German bred poodle..working line)..I know your dogs are working dogs,plus the breed counts for a lot,but I’m very interested to hear more about the training that goes into this.
If you don’t have time for this..no problems as I know you live a busy working life.

also a quick qtn...does your gamekeeper go on horse back over the hills or on motorbike as many do today?I had this image of him galloping after the pointer dogs to bring justice to the sheep.

In my experience, so much depends on the dog so once size definitely doesn't fit all. I have had border collies who would ignore stock when they weren't working and others who were constantly on the look out for work and not to be trusted. I have had six GSDs and two were never reliable or safe around livestock so the training didn't work on them.

I am fortunate that I am surrounded by sheep that I can utilise for my livestock training so I start GSD pups off very young and do a mix of boring them to death (pup on a long line, I sit and read a book in the field with sheep grazing around and reward the behaviour I want ie ignoring sheep and checking in with me) and obedience training and lots of fun play sessions in and around the stock. Away from the livestock I get them hooked on a special toy - which is pretty easy for high drive pups. My GSDs think ball is life then practise the steps posted in this brilliant article.

https://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-i-stop-my-dog-chasing/comment-page-4/

Obviously it is a different story for sheepdog pups as I want to encourage their interest in sheep from the get go.

 

[Bellasophia]

Thankyou for taking the time.. most of my dogs have been low prey drive,apart from my first st poodle..she would even chase traffic if she could.In those days I had to go into Turin each day to collect my boys from school..one day she was at the traffic lights and we waited (On lead) as the lights were about to change...a motor cyclist set off and she reared up on her hind legs,as only a big poodle can and thought she would set chase..The motorcyclist was very shocked and nearly fell over...this was a game changer for me..it simply could not happen...I spent a full week ,every day taking time to stand by the lights,and correct her if she tried to leap... then rewarding her when she kept calm.A bit like your pups on their long line by the sheep.. For me it was a learning curve,but off lead she never overcame her inner prey drive. One other memorable moment was she jumped over my pyracantha hedge,over four foot high,to gallop after my neighbors poor cat. I had to retrieve my dog from the now hysterical neighbor’s kitchen,where she had cornered the cat on her freezer top..
So I’m a bit in awe when I see your beautiful shepherds,working the sheep...the picture of your male gsd head to head Eyeballing with a huge ram stays with me.

edit ..to add ive just read the link..makes a lot of sense,I will re read tomorrow too,the case histories at the end are full of information and good tips.
luckily my two dogs here today are saints compared to the first poodle,my namesake,Bellasophia.

 

[Equi]

Brings to mind the episode of nightmare neighbours i watched today where a townie family moved to the country and bought a dog cause thats what you have in the country. Dog gets out multiple times, farmer comes to the house and says the dog is worrying livestock and birds (pheasant rearer) so they put up a rubbish fence made of bits and bobs, dog still gets out over and over. Dog ends up pregnant and having pups and they keep one, then get another dog cause why not..now all three dogs are roaming and they don't see the harm cause they're friendly dogs. 120 dead pheasants later the farmer finally shoots two of them and the family are crying victim. Bloody lenient farmer in my view. The dog owner even kept one of the dead birds(that her dog brought home with it) in the freezer to show anyone who said it was inevitable they'd be shot to show them that the bird had no bite marks or blood on it.

 

[Clodagh]

Brings to mind the episode of nightmare neighbours i watched today where a townie family moved to the country and bought a dog cause thats what you have in the country. Dog gets out multiple times, farmer comes to the house and says the dog is worrying livestock and birds (pheasant rearer) so they put up a rubbish fence made of bits and bobs, dog still gets out over and over. Dog ends up pregnant and having pups and they keep one, then get another dog cause why not..now all three dogs are roaming and they don't see the harm cause they're friendly dogs. 120 dead pheasants later the farmer finally shoots two of them and the family are crying victim. Bloody lenient farmer in my view. The dog owner even kept one of the dead birds(that her dog brought home with it) in the freezer to show anyone who said it was inevitable they'd be shot to show them that the bird had no bite marks or blood on it.

Sadly some people are beyond help.
Not condoning it but a gamekeeper up the road shot a neighbours dog in the release pen, after asking them twice to secure it. He then ran their other one over on the road (deliberate or not I don't know, I wasn't there, but imagine he didn't brake too hard). Keep your dogs safe and secure, it isn't rocket science.

 

[Equi]

Sadly some people are beyond help.
Not condoning it but a gamekeeper up the road shot a neighbours dog in the release pen, after asking them twice to secure it. He then ran their other one over on the road (deliberate or not I don't know, I wasn't there, but imagine he didn't brake too hard). Keep your dogs safe and secure, it isn't rocket science.

It really isnt. Im not a saint, my dogs roamed on occasion but we only have cattle/horses here and the dogs respected both. At worst they would get their arses kicked by the dogs nextdoor who also free roamed (but didn't leave their territory) and learned not to go there again. This family clearly felt their dog was more important than a farmers livelihood cause it was a pet..thats the type i can't get along with.

 

[palo1]

Stock training is very interesting I have found. I had no luck whatsoever with sighthounds and never trusted any of mine. Training either wasn't good enough or they were blooming 'untrainable' (for me!). Earlier spaniels were quite hard to stock train tbh but it was eminently do-able though it needed me to be on their case all the time - but spaniels need quite a lot of mental exercise so I guess that is just the deal with them! My fellhound was stock trained when we had her thankfully and was never a problem in that way.

I was really quite anxious about stock training my terrier though I have done that now reliably enough for me to walk on the hills with him - under supervision of course. He is on a lead when we are walking in fields with stock. He has been very easy in fact but my methods may not be particularly orthodox as I have utilised plenty of games that involve chasing, tugging etc at home and I use treats when we are on a walk to reward him for checking in with me. People have told me I am mad to 'encourage' him to play in that way but that is entirely his nature so play at home is all the things I don't want him to do when we are on a walk!! I reckon he needs that sort of play and I was never going to just hope that that behaviour would never come out. He is totally steady with all of our stock and whilst he is never out on his own at home I would trust him if he were left out by mistake. I am lucky that our ewes are big, bold and unafraid of dogs and he was introduced to them at 8 weeks so that may have helped.

Having said all that I am entirely alive to the possibility that were my pet dog to get out and to wander, that one of my neighbours might end up feeling the need to shoot him. That is enough for me to know how vital it is to make sure he is very clearly under control when not on my property. I just don't get what is confusing about it for so many pet dog owners tbh!!

 

[Clodagh]

I got a lurcher bitch from the pound and she was perfect with stock, and chickens. I have no idea what training methods had been used but she turned her head away so she couldn't 'see' them. Nothing to do with me, but it was a real plus. She was 100% unsteady to anything else!

We went to Devon recently and met up with a friend. She has a Dobermann dog who kept getting out, they did try to keep him in (but obviously not hard enough), He used to mooch with sheep, then started chasing them and then one day all his ducks came up in a row and he caught and killed one. They put in better fencing but the the urge to chase was then so strong and he got out again. She caught him with another sheep, luckily he hadn't got hold of it but I doubt it will have many lambs this year. He hasn't got out again, they have taken steps to stop him but I was so amazed when she told me the story, I would be too embarrassed to mention it to anyone.

 

[planete]

I never stop training my sighthound and lurchers but am fully aware that the training would fail given the right circumstances. They are never off lead unless it is in a securely fenced area and I have now put one of my bitches back on the long line in my fenced field as she started a new game a few weeks ago of charging the fences if a horse in a neighbouring field came close and doing her best rabid wolf impression to try and get it to run. That is after years of being steady to deer and livestock when close to me. She is clever enough to know she can indulge herself when further away from me. Back to basics for us now. She has the highest prey drive of my lot though but I have learnt never to relax with any of them.

 

[Bellasophia]

this is a sobering reminder..”trust a deadly disease”
http://www.adopt-a-greyhound.org/advice/general_advice/trust_a_deadly_disease.shtml

 

[palo1]

I got a lurcher bitch from the pound as she was perfect with stock, and chickens. I have no idea what training methods had been used but she turned her head away so she couldn't 'see' them. Nothing to do with me, but it was a real plus. She was 100% unsteady to anything else!

We went to Devon recently and met up with a friend. She has a Dobermann dog who kept getting out, they did try to keep him in (but obviously not hard enough), He used to mooch with sheep, then started chasing them and then one day all his ducks came up in a row and he caught and killed one. They put in better fencing but the the urge to chase was then so strong and he got out again. She caught him with another sheep, luckily he hadn't got hold of it but I doubt it will have many lambs this year. He hasn't got out again, they have taken steps to stop him but I was so amazed when she told me the story, I would be too embarrassed to mention it to anyone.

OMG!! The sick, cold feeling I had when I realised that one of my first sighthounds was 'hunting' sheep on an open hill (many, many years ago when I was a teenager) was enough of an experience for me to never want to see or feel that again. Dobermann's are so trainable too; how mad not to make the most of it's brains!! My fellhound was probably trained similarly to your lurcher @Clodagh - she used to turn her head away from stock too.

 

[PapaverFollis]

Sprollie is very expressive when it comes to sheep. He very pointedly looks at them "HUMAN THERE ARE SHEEP AND I HAVE CLEARLY SEEN THEM, YOU SEE ME SEEING THEM YES? Now give me the biscuits I am due for SEEING THE SHEEP". He's very reliable. ?

 

[Nudibranch]

The walker whose spaniel fatally savaged one of my hens was a country dweller (dog off lead in the middle of lambing). I also have a neighbour whose lurcher is allowed to roam wherever it likes. It brings down deer/fawns regularly and has been sighted wandering along A roads. I'm amazed it hasn't been shot yet.

 

[Goldenstar]

I train my pups the same way with stock I have never had a issue .
I walk them on a choke leader on the road where there are sheep in the fields beside it as soon as they look at the sheep I give my AhA not pleased with voice command and a quick upward yank on the lead and release .
They all have learned very fast to ignore stock .
I move on to being in fields which of course you need a farmer friend for that .
I invest a fair bit of time on this because it is biggy to get right .

There’s a very well respected old dog trainer in Northumberland he’s the last chance salon for sheep issues he was a shepherd as well he has a small collection of sheep he uses at his home that are trained / used for this work ,I don’t know which, they are certainly very laid back sheep .
He uses a static shock collar on some dogs .
I have never seen him doing this training but he has a reputation of dealing with dogs with big problems .
He also trains gun dogs and sheepdogs oh and people he spends time training people not dogs .

 

[Clodagh]

GS I agree that you need to put time in but I have personally never punished a dog using a choke chain. I’m not anti them, I used to use them all the time but find slip leads easier to keep in pockets.

 

[Libbygrey]

I think llamas or alpacas might work in certain situations and to chase off foxes or smaller dogs, but have read horror stories of larger dogs attacking and killing them as well as sheep. Our sheep graze hill and moorland often without fences over 15,000 acres so just not possible to use dogs, llamas etc.

I used to work at a farm that had 3 alpacas. One night 2 German Shepards got into their paddock and killed the 2 adult alpacas, one of which was pregnant. The baby was still alive when they were found in the morning and was rushed to the vets but died too. It was really sad. We knew which dogs had done it because they were seen running down the farm lane towards the alpacas paddock on a cctv camera

 

[Goldenstar]

GS I agree that you need to put time in but I have personally never punished a dog using a choke chain. I’m not anti them, I used to use them all the time but find slip leads easier to keep in pockets.

I don’t use a chain it’s a rope choke .
I have not had a dog that needed a chain but if I had I would use one I am trained trainer of horses this has left me me with quick reactions and timing all I know is that what I do works for me for me that’s enough for me .
IME it’s so easy to train them when they are young to ignore sheep .

 

[Clodagh]

I don’t use a chain it’s a rope choke .
I have not had a dog that needed a chain but if I had I would use one I am trained trainer of horses this has left me me with quick reactions and timing all I know is that what I do works for me for me that’s enough for me .
IME it’s so easy to train them when they are young to ignore sheep .

I’m sorry, I’d not heard the term and assumed chain. Me bad!
Definitely easier when they are young.