dieseldog
Well-Known Member
Have you seen the news? People are picking up BMW motorbikes of the beach. Some of the less harmful cargo, hope they sort the oil out.
Shipwreked tanker
- Thread starter dieseldog
- Start date
Thunder
Well-Known Member
Odd how just because it's washed up some people will happily steal.... and with camera crews so close by, I trust they're going to give it back!
Rambo
Well-Known Member
I don't think it's actually technically stealing if it is washed up
Isn't there some law about treasure trove or similar
ETS: Apparently they have to declare what they take, and it is then down to the owner to reclaim it if they want...
ETS: Apparently they have to declare what they take, and it is then down to the owner to reclaim it if they want...
vicster
Well-Known Member
No i haven't seen that OMG
rema
Well-Known Member
I think it's more salvage rights than stealing.If you "found" a new motorbike on the beach would you hand it in!!.The woman on the news this morning who was the was saying that they are handing out forms so people can return any goods they find YEAH RIGHT.
Dovorian
Well-Known Member
I tink it become salvage - in the same way thet marine wreckers will officially salvage a vessel. All very complicted I suspect! How would you be able to register a motor bike anyway (legally I mean) with documents?
Rambo
Well-Known Member
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I tink it become salvage - in the same way thet marine wreckers will officially salvage a vessel. All very complicted I suspect! How would you be able to register a motor bike anyway (legally I mean) with documents?
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I was think exactly the same thing tbh
I tink it become salvage - in the same way thet marine wreckers will officially salvage a vessel. All very complicted I suspect! How would you be able to register a motor bike anyway (legally I mean) with documents?
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I was think exactly the same thing tbh
Thunder
Well-Known Member
There is theft by finding, whereby if you find something you must take reasonable steps to trace the owner.
Reasonable steps depending on the item, however in this case, I'd think it's obvious.
Reasonable steps depending on the item, however in this case, I'd think it's obvious.
spaniel
Well-Known Member
The debris may already be the property of the salvers (the official guys interviewed a few days ago) although anything found (I think) below the high water mark becomes trove and is, in theory, open to beachcombing. However, because there will be a manifest of cargo, as soon as this is produced , in theory, anything found will be required to be handed back!
As to the BMWs....what happens to anything alse thats stolen!!!! lets not be naive here....there are ways and means!
As to the BMWs....what happens to anything alse thats stolen!!!! lets not be naive here....there are ways and means!
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
They have to fill in a form and then it is upto the owner to reclaim it, if they don't do the form they can get fined £2,500
Thunder
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
How would you be able to register a motor bike anyway (legally I mean) with documents?
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Two options
1) Break the bike up for parts and sell them.
2) Grind out stamped model and VIN numbers, replace with those of an existing bike.
How would you be able to register a motor bike anyway (legally I mean) with documents?
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Two options
1) Break the bike up for parts and sell them.
2) Grind out stamped model and VIN numbers, replace with those of an existing bike.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
BBC news 24. Amazing footage - I want to go.
Dovorian
Well-Known Member
1) seems a great pity and 2) I don't think is legal!
Thunder
Well-Known Member
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1) seems a great pity and 2) I don't think is legal!
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Neither are legal - just like hanging on to the bike without the owner's consent....
1) seems a great pity and 2) I don't think is legal!
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Neither are legal - just like hanging on to the bike without the owner's consent....
Thunder
Well-Known Member
Having now seen footage of this on the news I have the following to say
Disgusting
Absolutely Bloody Disgusting
Here we have a vessel, in danger of breaking up in the sea, damaging the cost of one of the world heritage sites we are lucky to have in this country, and what do the Great British Public do?
Do they offer assistance in protecting the coastline and the wildlife there?
Do they provide general assistance in clearing the beach to a centralised area?
Do they stay clear and let the experts get on with it?
NO, instead we see people, and even whole families coming to the beach and stealing any items lost from the ship, bringing down tractors to pile high with goods belonging to other people, showing that greed is still very much alive and well in the British Ecomony.
What really really appauls me about this, is seeing the thieves openly blagging on the News about how they're going to find buyers for the goods on Ebay!!!
I hope, with such good evidence as a video'd confession, that the cops down there will take action.
It makes me sick, taking advantage from other peoples' misfortune, will blatant glee...
Pah.
Disgusting
Absolutely Bloody Disgusting
Here we have a vessel, in danger of breaking up in the sea, damaging the cost of one of the world heritage sites we are lucky to have in this country, and what do the Great British Public do?
Do they offer assistance in protecting the coastline and the wildlife there?
Do they provide general assistance in clearing the beach to a centralised area?
Do they stay clear and let the experts get on with it?
NO, instead we see people, and even whole families coming to the beach and stealing any items lost from the ship, bringing down tractors to pile high with goods belonging to other people, showing that greed is still very much alive and well in the British Ecomony.
What really really appauls me about this, is seeing the thieves openly blagging on the News about how they're going to find buyers for the goods on Ebay!!!
I hope, with such good evidence as a video'd confession, that the cops down there will take action.
It makes me sick, taking advantage from other peoples' misfortune, will blatant glee...
Pah.
_basil_
Well-Known Member
This whole thing is happening just down the road from where I live. It is slowly driving me up the pole:
Roads closed,
Lots more traffic than usual
The possibility that our local beaches will be closed over the summer due to pollution
I totally agree with Thunder about greedy people and think its disgusting
Roads closed,
Lots more traffic than usual
The possibility that our local beaches will be closed over the summer due to pollution
I totally agree with Thunder about greedy people and think its disgusting
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
I don't, if they weren't picking it up how long would it take to clear up? Has the boats insurance company sent anyone down to deal with it?
sunflower
Well-Known Member
I doubt may people are removing items as a public service to help clean up the beach. If they were they would hand them in or at least log them in with the police post that has been set up and not be talking about selling them on ebay
Thunder
Well-Known Member
Insurance companies won't get involved at this stage I would think.
It's abhorrent that while they know it's illegal they continue to plunder.
How long would it take to clear up? - don't kid yourself that these people are doing a service - they're after the valuable cargo and that's it - they're removing it from containers which still need removing now empty.
I think there was a time when people would all club together and help clear it up, putting items where directed, whether that was in new containers or elsewhere. Nowadays I see increasingly that it's become a culture of Me First...
Oh well, fixed penalty for using a mobile phone while driving are at last becoming endorsable - at lease there's one bit of good news today.
It's abhorrent that while they know it's illegal they continue to plunder.
How long would it take to clear up? - don't kid yourself that these people are doing a service - they're after the valuable cargo and that's it - they're removing it from containers which still need removing now empty.
I think there was a time when people would all club together and help clear it up, putting items where directed, whether that was in new containers or elsewhere. Nowadays I see increasingly that it's become a culture of Me First...
Oh well, fixed penalty for using a mobile phone while driving are at last becoming endorsable - at lease there's one bit of good news today.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
I never said they were doing it as a public service. Secondly it is not illegal to remove the items as long as you fill in a form. The owner of the item then has x amount of time to reclaim it off you.
The company that owns the boat should either have sold the items to a salvage company who would then clean up the beach, or they should be cleaning it up themselves. You would think that the boats company would be insured against this type of thing happening and would also be responsible for the clean up.
It was also the decision of the salvage company to dump the boat there on its way to france.
Its the second time this boat has had an accident and had to be rescued. I hope last time they did proper repairs on her and this disaster was not avoidable.
The company that owns the boat should either have sold the items to a salvage company who would then clean up the beach, or they should be cleaning it up themselves. You would think that the boats company would be insured against this type of thing happening and would also be responsible for the clean up.
It was also the decision of the salvage company to dump the boat there on its way to france.
Its the second time this boat has had an accident and had to be rescued. I hope last time they did proper repairs on her and this disaster was not avoidable.
Thunder
Well-Known Member
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Secondly it is not illegal to remove the items as long as you fill in a form. The owner of the item then has x amount of time to reclaim it off you.
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I know that, but bragging on the news you're going to flog it on Ebay is hardly giving the owner the statutory time to claim it.
From the reports I've seen and heard it appears many people are refusing to fill in the forms. This combined with their admission they intend to sell complete the points to prove in the 1968 Theft Act.
Regarding the recovery of the containers, I think all the salvage efforts are currently focused on getting 3500 tonnes of oil off the ship safely. The debris on the beach is largely unharmful, while unsightly.
Beaching the ship was also apparently the safest thing to do in light of the extremem weather conditions.
Regardless of any action or lack of it by the insurers, it does not excuse the actions of the public who are stealing items worth a lot of money. It should also be made aware to people that buying such items, while knowing or suspecting them to be stolen makes the buyer guilty of the offence of handling.
I'm normally a laid back relaxed person, but this sort of behaviour when we live in an alleged moral and upstanding country really gets my goat.
Secondly it is not illegal to remove the items as long as you fill in a form. The owner of the item then has x amount of time to reclaim it off you.
[/ QUOTE ]
I know that, but bragging on the news you're going to flog it on Ebay is hardly giving the owner the statutory time to claim it.
From the reports I've seen and heard it appears many people are refusing to fill in the forms. This combined with their admission they intend to sell complete the points to prove in the 1968 Theft Act.
Regarding the recovery of the containers, I think all the salvage efforts are currently focused on getting 3500 tonnes of oil off the ship safely. The debris on the beach is largely unharmful, while unsightly.
Beaching the ship was also apparently the safest thing to do in light of the extremem weather conditions.
Regardless of any action or lack of it by the insurers, it does not excuse the actions of the public who are stealing items worth a lot of money. It should also be made aware to people that buying such items, while knowing or suspecting them to be stolen makes the buyer guilty of the offence of handling.
I'm normally a laid back relaxed person, but this sort of behaviour when we live in an alleged moral and upstanding country really gets my goat.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
It's got nothing to do with the 1968 Theft act as it is covered by the Merchant Shipping Act 1995, which says it is an offence for people to remove items from a wreck if they conceal or keep possession of cargo and refuse to surrender it
_basil_
Well-Known Member
Nobody fills in the form they were admitting that on the local news, so they are blatently stealing.
The owners of the cargo are coming down tomorrow to assess the situation.
This is an important part of the Jurassic coast and I cant believe it has been allowed to happen here.
Yes the ship did have an accident back in 2001 under a different name and yes like Diesal Dog rightly says I hope this disaster was not avoidable.
The owners of the cargo are coming down tomorrow to assess the situation.
This is an important part of the Jurassic coast and I cant believe it has been allowed to happen here.
Yes the ship did have an accident back in 2001 under a different name and yes like Diesal Dog rightly says I hope this disaster was not avoidable.
Thunder
Well-Known Member
Ok DD, at least you're now accepting that what they're doing is illegal.
I'm not up on the 1995 Act as I deal in the 1968 one mainly. If there wwas not the 1995 Act then the 68 one would cover the offences.
I'm unaware of any handling offences in the 1995 act and so presume they revert then to the theft act.
I'm disappointed to see people condoning the actions of thieves.
I'm not up on the 1995 Act as I deal in the 1968 one mainly. If there wwas not the 1995 Act then the 68 one would cover the offences.
I'm unaware of any handling offences in the 1995 act and so presume they revert then to the theft act.
I'm disappointed to see people condoning the actions of thieves.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
No I am not accepting it is illegal
Thunder
Well-Known Member
Ok, so for a person to take an item from the beach and abmit they intend so sell it on TV despite knowing they are now the rightful owner is not illegal?
Points of Theft...
A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property (got this, as they know it's not theirs) belonging to another (yes, the shipping company or whoever owns the actual items) with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it (well, can hardly give it back once sold on Ebay or similar)
Don't tell me - you're a defence solicitor....
Points of Theft...
A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property (got this, as they know it's not theirs) belonging to another (yes, the shipping company or whoever owns the actual items) with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it (well, can hardly give it back once sold on Ebay or similar)
Don't tell me - you're a defence solicitor....
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
If it was illegal with so many police present why was not one person arrested? Especially the people who removed the 50 BMWs?
Secondly it is not illegal to sell the items on Ebay as long as they have filled in the form and waited the proper amount of time.
Secondly it is not illegal to sell the items on Ebay as long as they have filled in the form and waited the proper amount of time.
Thunder
Well-Known Member
The mood of the police down there is apparently changing.
You could say the same (as many people did) about the recent issues in London over the cartoon protests - no one was arrested at the time, but evidence gatherers were out and arrests were made after the event. I wouldn't be surprised if this was not the case here too - after all, it takes and awful lot of time to process people following arest
As for why they're not arresting people now, a few reasons
1) David and Goliath, there are a limited number of police and the amount of people on the beach far outstrip them.
2) Technically the offence is not complete until the person admits their intentions with the property. Any brief would argue they were going to keep it, hence the requirement of the forms.
They're talking of closing the beach tomorrow, and I hope they do.
(and yes, I know it's not illegal after the time limit and once detials given - I think I've already covered that point, but them not filling in the forms)
You could say the same (as many people did) about the recent issues in London over the cartoon protests - no one was arrested at the time, but evidence gatherers were out and arrests were made after the event. I wouldn't be surprised if this was not the case here too - after all, it takes and awful lot of time to process people following arest
As for why they're not arresting people now, a few reasons
1) David and Goliath, there are a limited number of police and the amount of people on the beach far outstrip them.
2) Technically the offence is not complete until the person admits their intentions with the property. Any brief would argue they were going to keep it, hence the requirement of the forms.
They're talking of closing the beach tomorrow, and I hope they do.
(and yes, I know it's not illegal after the time limit and once detials given - I think I've already covered that point, but them not filling in the forms)
conniegirl
Well-Known Member
Its not illegal if they declare it. If the owners then dont come forward to reclaim the goods decared then they are well within thier rights to sell it on. Its been like that for ages. Just like its not illegal to go diving and take stuff off wrecks provided you declare it to customs and the wreck isnt protected.
Up here a container of sucream got swept overboard, people collected it, declared it then sold it and the company never came forward to claim it.
If they hadnt collected it it would still be on the beach
Up here a container of sucream got swept overboard, people collected it, declared it then sold it and the company never came forward to claim it.
If they hadnt collected it it would still be on the beach
emma69
Well-Known Member
I believe that people have a certain amount of time to complete and submit the forms, presumably they are not attached to the BMW's? I don't have a problem with it, provided they later get a form and submit it - my guess is that for the vast majority of the cargo (perhaps excluding the motorbikes) it would not be worth the costs involved in recovering the articles and people may indeed get to keep what they have found. In previous years I have found things and handed them in to the police. A period of time later (I believe it was 30 days but couldn't swear to it) the items were given back to me by the police as unclaimed.
My guess is that the vast majority of the public are unaware of the rules regarding salvage, and I am sure that a fair number will get the required forms when they realise the rules
My guess is that the vast majority of the public are unaware of the rules regarding salvage, and I am sure that a fair number will get the required forms when they realise the rules