Shivering weight off

[hopscotch bandit]

While they have the genes capable of having brown fat and producing the protein needed to generate heat from it, generally large mammals like horses rely less on this kind of heat generation, favouring gut-generated heat the most. It's all to do with size to surface area ratio, rodents rely on it the most because of this.

I've never heard the term brown fat before and googled it earlier, very interesting reading!

 

[SEL]

There are so many fat horses out there who haven't dropped a kg over winter because they've been kept wrapped up and fed; with both increasing when it's been bad weather. This obesity crisis is epidemic and people seem blind to their own horse's body condition.

The amount of horses I drive past who are wearing the same rugs at 12 degrees C+ as they were wearing at <0 degrees C is disgusting too. Not sure if that's laziness or ignorance.

I think ignorance unless the owners only visit 1 x day. This wasn't a good winter for natives dropping weight because the grass did so well, so those of us with good doers are having to work extra hard to keep the blubber levels under control. Except some people aren't - even when advised by vet, farrier etc - and I think they really just don't realise how fat their animals are or how dangerous it is.

 

[milliepops]

I have one that I'm letting get a bit cold deliberately. She's not in work, not able to be worked and not fed bar a bit of hay when she's in during the day. I'd rather let her continue to graze normally than have to muzzle her at this stage.

The other on the same routine is by nature a warm horse but as their field is more exposed than she's used to, I'm keeping her rugged a little longer than usual. I notice she is more inclined to be tight in her back when she's cold, and she is also the hysterical sort that won't eat her hay if she is a bit chilly under rugging wouldn't ever be a strategy that would work for her.

So horses for courses.

Agree that there are a lot of fat horses this spring, OH (farrier) has warned some clients and his advice has not been heeded... couple of weeks later laminitis has struck

 

[KautoStar1]

Ignorance is definitely a factor. Also thinking because we might feel the cold, the same is true for our horses, which of course isnt true. Also it doesnt help when feed companies like NAF still tell people to feel the base of the ears for a guide to body warmth.

 

[TPO]

I think ignorance unless the owners only visit 1 x day. This wasn't a good winter for natives dropping weight because the grass did so well, so those of us with good doers are having to work extra hard to keep the blubber levels under control. Except some people aren't - even when advised by vet, farrier etc - and I think they really just don't realise how fat their animals are or how dangerous it is.

If someone can't get to their horse 2x a day or have someone who can check them on their behalf then something has to change. You're more than likely right that horses are left because they are only checked 1x a day and it's cooler at night...

People also forget that horses are covered in hair and generate heat differently from us! Equestrian marketers must be having a field day at our expense! Rugs and feed for fat horses....

I have one that I'm letting get a bit cold deliberately. She's not in work, not able to be worked and not fed bar a bit of hay when she's in during the day. I'd rather let her continue to graze normally than have to muzzle her at this stage.

The other on the same routine is by nature a warm horse but as their field is more exposed than she's used to, I'm keeping her rugged a little longer than usual. I notice she is more inclined to be tight in her back when she's cold, and she is also the hysterical sort that won't eat her hay if she is a bit chilly under rugging wouldn't ever be a strategy that would work for her.

So horses for courses.

Agree that there are a lot of fat horses this spring, OH (farrier) has warned some clients and his advice has not been heeded... couple of weeks later laminitis has struck

We were on the verge of clipping the fat hairy so he would be colder and use some reserves! He'll definitely have a clip of some description next winter.

The TB will not tolerate being even a smidge too warm. If he got turned out am in a 200gm, because it was below freezing, and mum wasn't fast enough to change him by lunch time to something lighter/take it off when it warmed up slightly he'd just de-robe himself

 

[milliepops]

The TB will not tolerate being even a smidge too warm. If he got turned out am in a 200gm, because it was below freezing, and mum wasn't fast enough to change him by lunch time to something lighter/take it off when it warmed up slightly he'd just de-robe himself

some really are very specific about temperature ranges, aren't they! For a common native, Kira is a bit of a goldilocks horse ... too hot, too cold... got to be just right or all hell breaks loose

 

[hopscotch bandit]

Ignorance is definitely a factor. Also thinking because we might feel the cold, the same is true for our horses, which of course isnt true. Also it doesnt help when feed companies like NAF still tell people to feel the base of the ears for a guide to body warmth.

Yes its a myth that having cold ears always means that the horse is cold, its ears will be cold if the rest of the body is cold, but a horse can also have cold ears when the rest of its body is warm, the same as humans can.

 

[laura_nash]

I would say I "shiver weight off" my two, and with my cob I often have him out all winter clipped out and unrugged (I do have rugs if needed). It does depend on the horse of course, my cob in particular seems fairly oblivous to bad weather and hates being too warm. He is also a massively good doer who loathes muzzles and restricted grazing, is not too keen on extra exercise and cannot be stabled or fed hay due to a severe dust allergy.

I don't literally have them shivering though, its just a term. They use more calories to keep warm, and (probably the biggest impact) spend more time sheltering and less stuffing themselves. In winter they are out together in a decent amount of varied terrain with plenty of shelter and grass, I would be much more cautious about doing the same with a stabled horse, one out on a tiny square individual turnout paddock with no shelter, or one on very restricted forage.

The only time I've ever seen my cob shiver (in 9 years of ownership) was in the middle of summer when he was ill.

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I think ignorance unless the owners only visit 1 x day. This wasn't a good winter for natives dropping weight because the grass did so well, so those of us with good doers are having to work extra hard to keep the blubber levels under control. Except some people aren't - even when advised by vet, farrier etc - and I think they really just don't realise how fat their animals are or how dangerous it is.

its been a nightmare winter from that POV. My Exmoor looks pretty trim but the one that never stops eating is fat, plain and simple.

 

[windand rain]

I hate the idea of clipping a horse and turning it out unrugged in my view horses grow a coat for a reason by all means dont rug a hairy horse I dont but please dont clip and leave out the exception being weather like we had in Feb when it was more like a cold summers day. The epidemic of obese horses has far morre to with excessive amounts of food and all the supplements and lack of exercise there are very few horses in work now that could be described as even medium never mind hard work. Most good doers would do well on grass or hay and nothing else but I would bet 90% are on bucket feeds
long hours of stabling large bales of hay/haylage and small pens are also part of the problem

 

[MyBoyChe]

My fully clipped native has been out naked 24/7 for the last month or so with the odd overnight exception when its been forecast to get below freezing. Hes quite a warm little horse and Ive never seen him shiver or look remotely tucked up. I previously had a TB and I have to fight my inner rugging zilla all the time but he just doesnt need them. Every day I see at least 4 horses that are rugged in the same rugs they have been wearing all winter and their owners all think they are fabulously caring. Ive always been led to believe that horses have the ability to warm up more easily than cool down and I cant think of anything worse for them than carting a mw rug round when its well above 10 degrees, these are all native types btw with no other issues going on

 

[milliepops]

I hate the idea of clipping a horse and turning it out unrugged in my view horses grow a coat for a reason by all means dont rug a hairy horse I dont but please dont clip and leave out the exception being weather like we had in Feb when it was more like a cold summers day. The epidemic of obese horses has far morre to with excessive amounts of food and all the supplements and lack of exercise there are very few horses in work now that could be described as even medium never mind hard work. Most good doers would do well on grass or hay and nothing else but I would bet 90% are on bucket feeds
long hours of stabling large bales of hay/haylage and small pens are also part of the problem

I really think you have to look at the individual.

The one I've turfed out to get a bit cold is partly clipped. Her hairy bits are more hairy than my oldies, who have been out naked all winter and are now almost in their summer coats.
Arguably she's better off than they are, if it gets a bit cold.

They all look rather well so I'm not remotely worried!

Incidentally while I wouldn't plan for them to shiver, I am sure they do if there's a chilly rain shower. But shivering is a natural mechanism, I choose to protect the one in hard work from it but the others won't suffer if they get a bit nippy for half an hour or so.

 

[whiteflower]

This time of year I'm more likely to put a light rug at a higher temperature in certain conditions. In the winter my unclipped ones will be out most of the time without rugs as their winter coat does it's job, however at this time of year when they have their summer coats through but we can still have nights around 5 degrees then add in wind and wet for a prolonged period you end up with a shivering mess. I will put a rain sheet on if it's wet and windy for a prolonged period in the spring for this reason whereas when it's much colder but dry in the winter when they are wooly I won't.

 

[SEL]

I hate the idea of clipping a horse and turning it out unrugged in my view horses grow a coat for a reason by all means dont rug a hairy horse I dont but please dont clip and leave out the exception being weather like we had in Feb when it was more like a cold summers day. The epidemic of obese horses has far morre to with excessive amounts of food and all the supplements and lack of exercise there are very few horses in work now that could be described as even medium never mind hard work. Most good doers would do well on grass or hay and nothing else but I would bet 90% are on bucket feeds
long hours of stabling large bales of hay/haylage and small pens are also part of the problem

Most of the hairies who I see clipped to help with winter weight loss are given a trace clip so their backs and bottoms still have their full winter coat to protect from the elements. I know a huge amount of good doers (riding school down the road with its little cobs) who are only fed grass and are still fat. The grass around here is just too rich for the average pony of welsh / native origin, so if a bit of a clip over winter helps keep their weight down then that can't be a bad thing.

 

[TPO]

I hate the idea of clipping a horse and turning it out unrugged in my view horses grow a coat for a reason by all means dont rug a hairy horse I dont but please dont clip and leave out

I hate the idea of a horse going down with lami, having metabolic issues and the extra strain that being obese puts on their joints, tendons and ligaments.

I agree that people overfeed. There are certainly enough threads on here about feeding horses who are already overweight! I also agree that most horses are in low levels of work and fed like they're just about to do the Tevis cup (100 mile endurance ride).

However not all horses can be in the level of work that would be needed to keep them trim and/or are exceptionally good doers on restricted/no grass and soaked hay already so you have to make sensible decisions for their welfare and wellbeing

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Ignorance is definitely a factor. Also thinking because we might feel the cold, the same is true for our horses, which of course isnt true. Also it doesnt help when feed companies like NAF still tell people to feel the base of the ears for a guide to body warmth.

I agree, I don't understand why people don't do appropriate research before buying their first horse. I am pretty sure that I learned about feeding/rugging horses almost by osmosis when I went to a very good RS before I got my first horse but I also read just about every book I could lay my hands on. I really don't think that people spend long enough at good RS before buying, these days. I continued learning about management when I started volunteering with RDA, too.

I think feed companies have a lot to answer for tbh but their customers don't have to buy.

I use the term 'shiver the weight off' as shorthand, really. I am prepared to rug over the next few days, if they genuinely do start shivering, because this time of the year is about the worst, with cold, heavy rain and wind from the south/east, where we have no shelter and they have lost most of their winter coats but am hoping that they will lose a bit of weight and won't need rugs. This winter has been so mild and dry that they have come through winter a bit heavier than the optimum.

 

[Rosiejazzandpia]

I have purposely under rugged this winter, but not to the point of shivering. I have a very hot young cob who is a good doer. Shes out 24/7 all year round and we have excellent grass all year round.
She was fully clipped from October onwards and out in a 50g rug. She hasn't worn anything heavier all winter and has had a fibre feed for breakfast each day. She dropped off a nice amount of weight and is a now a good weight for spring grass, which we have lots of.
Some of the cobs on my yard were bundled up in 400gram rugs through winter and were far too hot, plus are now overweight coming into spring.

I wouldn't let my horse stand shivering but as shes young and healthy she can move around 25 acres to keep warmer and has a constant supply of forage at all times.

Edited to add my horse hasn't worn a rug for the past month now and they are all packed away as shes a good weight and has enough coat and forage to keep warm on cooler nights

 

[Surbie]

I've only seen horses actually shivering once. They were downright miserable in biting cold and relentless rain last February. Though to be fair there was a shelter and they weren't in it.*

My cob lost weight over winter and is now fat again (grass, shoeing issues, saddler elusive) but he has no extra feed, is trace clipped and out 24/7. He eats more if he comes in than if he just stays out - I've tried a muzzle with no success, though another is on order and we'll see if he can work his way around that!

I use the term a bit but I don't mean it literally. For as long as possible (he has sweetitch) I will leave him unrugged unless the weather is brutal, because he's not thin-skinned, old, arthritic or wussy. I get you need to consider the horse in front of you and they differ. He dislikes driving rain, but then I would put something waterproof on him.

*ETA - actually if I remember rightly now the shelter was full of a woolly dry Highland who didn't want to share. She got swapped out from their field that day.

 

[Goldenstar]

It’s worth remembering that rugging started to conserve weight .
In the past food quality was poorer and horses lived in or out .
They where kept for work .
People will have soon worked out that cold horses lost condition and so conserve fuel they will have kept them warm by various means .
The concept of keeping horses warm for comfort is a relatively modern one .

 

[PapaverFollis]

I'm laughing slightly at temperatures going "down" to 7 degrees at night... been minus 2 here with snow showers. Lol! If The Beast was normal she might still have had just a fleece on overnight. But she's not and every time I have accidentally or on purpose let her get cold for a number of days she has tied up shortly after. So I have a large cob in 100g of rug today (7 degrees in daytime! Lol) and 200g plus a fleece over night!! I work pretty hard to try to keep weight off in other ways, field management, soaking hay and daily work. I hope people don't judge but they probably do... also I use the same top rug now as I did in the middle of winter... just without any liners so someone driving past the field might think I haven't changed rugs when I have!

 

[MotherOfChickens]

I agree, I don't understand why people don't do appropriate research before buying their first horse. I am pretty sure that I learned about feeding/rugging horses almost by osmosis when I went to a very good RS before I got my first horse but I also read just about every book I could lay my hands on. I really don't think that people spend long enough at good RS before buying, these days. I continued learning about management when I started volunteering with RDA, too.

well when I was growing up we didn't have the vast array of rugs either-clipped out horses got jutes and wool blankets with a duvet if they needed it and NZs outside which might have a wool lining but no padding. We didn't do neck rugs either-we certainly didn't have 450g + rugs available. Ponies that lived out were not rugged ime. I'd not want to go back to the old rugs but quite honestly I've not met a horse yet that needs a 450g rug to go outside for 4 hours a day-especially not down south.

the only time I ever see mine shiver is if we have a low come in in the summer with a few days non-stop rain and they're in their summer coats.

 

[TPO]

Going completely off on a tangent but I think it comes down to horses being too easily "got" these days in reply to comments about ignorance/lack of learning.

It's the same disposable income that allows to many of us to have horses as pets that also enables us to buy rugs in every weight and colour (guilty as charged but they are used appropriately!).

I'm not for one minute saying that the old days were all good, and anyone who's had to lug about a wet canvas NZ will agree, but it was almost as if an apprenticeship was served during the free labour at riding schools, hanging about horseless at shows/lessons/anywhere that there might be a horse to watch and listen and reading everything that you could get your hands on. Now people are buying "affordable" horses, that cost less than some mid-designer range handbags, after a handful of lessons. Despite information being more accessible than ever the kids/teenagers/adults I've been on yards with have had little to no interest in learning anything as they already know enough and the horse is "fine". I guess one of the end results is fat, over rugged, under worked and overfed horses??

 

[Gloi]

If our natives are cold out in winter they get extra hay before they get a rug. Their gut is made for keeping them warm, they are rarely cold with a belly full of forage.

 

[Hoof_Prints]

I currently have two fat ponies in, they have not been allowed to drop weight all winter. It's a real battle to get it off now winter is over, I had them previous winters and they were lean and fit during their time with me, so it's a management issue not that they are simply "good doers".

I have one in that I kept this winter, she was very well fed and rugged, never allowed to get cold. I just kept her in enough work to keep the weight off. She came out looking a tiny bit too lean in March (as all mine tend to), but fit as a fiddle and very strong. She's now turned out on the lush paddock, no worries of weight gain! Whereas the others are raising my stress levels as I can hardly feel ribs! Despite being in a full workload, the fat just won't shift I've never had problems as long as the horses are kept working in winter, and are on high calorie diets.

I did know someone who took the "shiver weight off" too literally, and left their 25yo cushings pony shaking from head to toe in icy rain. I bought the poor thing in and covered him in towels

 

[Red-1]

It’s really about knowing your horse .
I don’t like mine cold I think it unsettles them and I don’t like anything that unsettles the yard.
However I do use the cold at times to aid weight control.
For instance Fatty had no rug at all over the winter .
My grey Harvey who is a very good doer has had to have a shoeing break and I removed his rug early to slow his weight gain .
I am injured atm ( broke hip had replacement 2 weeks ago ) and we had a very cold few days normally I would put light rugs on the horses in work but we left them without to slow their weight gain .
It probaly does their metabolism good to fire up to keep warm .
But I would not let an oldie be miserable .

I am sorry to hear that GS, wishing you a quick recovery.

Obviously leaving a horse to shiver is inappropriate. But as others have said horses generate their own natural warmth from fermentation in the colon. Allowing them to do what their bodies were designed to do is not wrong. Over rugging (and I am not saying you do OP but it does happen) has been described as a cruelty epidemic in horse owners. I would rather one of mine got a bit chilly than was overheated wrapped in something they were unable to take off. But a bit chilly is not shivering.

I agree with this. It does also depend on your horse. My last horse hated to be too hot (even a bit) and would simply remove the rug. My current one prefers to be a bit warm to a bit cold, so I accommodate that. I would not leave a horse to actually shiver.

 

[G&T]

5 degrees or above and dry I wouldn't be rugging, maybe a light sheet if in the stable. I think you probably rugged correctly for the temperature OP unless your horse has metabolic issues or something that mean it needs rugging up? I wouldn't really want to leave a horse in 15 degrees with a heavier rug than that even if it's going to drop a bit later on, not fair on the horse imo

 

[hopscotch bandit]

I wouldn't really want to leave a horse in 15 degrees with a heavier rug than that even if it's going to drop a bit later on, not fair on the horse imo

I agree, its really hard to know. Especially when it drops so low its only for an hour or two. I have to say I think rugging is the most debated topic on a yard.

 

[Antw23uk]

Im a hardcore none rugger through and through but after torrential rain last night i found my ISH shivering this morning and my usually hardcore sports mare x cob also with a little shiver. they have a token handful of chaff for supplements every morning so i popped rain sheets on them. they then proceeded to canter and buck there way round the middle field to 'warm up' ... and also to show how annoyed they are i wont let them graze the knee high paddock next to them even though there is plenty of grass left in their own field!! I have the farrier at lunch so will very likely whip the rugs off then. Perhaps i was too quick to rug, they are both fat and need to 'shiver some weight off' but you just have to make snap judgement calls sometimes and knowing i will be seeing them in a few hours means i chose to pop a sheet on to take the edge off there coldness!

 

[MurphysMinder]

My oldies have wintered out without rugs (good field shelters that they rarely use) and I have used the term "shiver the weight off", but what I meant was burn some fat to keep warm. Because it was such a mild winter they have barely dropped weight, which is a pain. This morning the pony was shivering, she has her summer coat and doesn't appear to have used the shelter much, so she is currently in with hay to warm her up.

 

[windand rain]

To me rugging appropriately is the important bit as long as the horse is comfortable, happy and well they don't wear rugs at all I strictly control diet so they lose weight all winter anyway a bit too much sometimes for some people but for the last 55 years that is how I have managed by horses and ponies. Works for me. I would no more leave them standing continuously at a large bale of hay than I would turn them into 25 acres of cattle grass but as I said I would also not knowingly let them get cold or to litterally shiver. We are very exposed to cold winds with not a lot of natural shelter but even so when they were given a field shelter they never went in it unless it had extra food in it. I dont own a heavy weight rug and can see no reason why I would need one. I still maintain that it is cruel to knowingly and intentionally allow your horse to get freezing cold. Rugs have been on an off like "whores drawers" this year so it is never a question of putting them on and leaving them