Shocking! And this from the guy who opposes rollkur

Mountain/molehill.

This is a horse which should have a naturally upright carriage who will not give to either leg or hand. Now its not pretty but to be honest I cant see anything more than a determined man having a battle with an equally determined horse.

If you look at the pics in a biomechanical way its really not horrendous....maybe it LOOKS it, but its not cruelty.

Id like to know how the horse is doing now....does anyone know or has nobody bothered to follow this up??
 
So, just to get this right, the picture under the time stamp 16:53:26 shows a horse ridden without the use of force, with light aids and condusive to the development of its major muscles in accordance with correct biomechanical principles...

whereas this photo of rollkur attrocity shows a strong rider, using his whole body to lean back and haul at the horse's mouth, while pulling the head in, in a way at odds with the correct biomechanical principles

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...w0wTcg9DnCA&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

OK, that makes a lot of sense now! :D
 
I agree with booboos and Martlin.

Shocking and total hypocricy.....again!!! Just one more "celebrity" who just can't seem to walk their talk :mad:
 
If the rider were a Dutch dressage rider, I imagine the reaction to the pictures would be rather more harsh! He's a hypocrite.
 
Booboos said:
So, just to get this right, the picture under the time stamp 16:53:26 shows a horse ridden without the use of force, with light aids and condusive to the development of its major muscles in accordance with correct biomechanical principles...

whereas this photo of rollkur attrocity shows a strong rider, using his whole body to lean back and haul at the horse's mouth, while pulling the head in, in a way at odds with the correct biomechanical principles

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...w0wTcg9DnCA&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:0

OK, that makes a lot of sense now! :D
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From what I can see in that frame he as flexing the horse right, maybe my resolution is diferent to yours. Im not saying its right but there are times when being gentle doesnt get through. Im not saying beat your horse into submission but if you are sitting on something thats an habitual git you are going to end up using strength/force/ whatever you want to describe it as.

As I say, Id like to have a follow up on this horse.

You cant compare this with Rolkur. Biomechanicaly one is damaging....the other just looks harsh.

Just had a good look at the rolkur pic you refer too....looks alot less like hauling on the reins and more like hanging on for grim death!!
 
He rode two of our horses at a relatively recent clinic and I was impressed, he rode them very nicely and got a lot out of them. But they are nicely trained, responsive horses who dont need remdial work, just an advancement in their training.
 
Booboos said:
But this is a person who makes money by advocating training methods that do not use force and claims corrective schooling requires a long and slow approach, therefore HYPOCRITE! He is also a rider with no credits to his riding, e.g. no competitive success, no record of having been a great trainer and helping others, no record of remedial riding for difficult horses.

Loads of people are bad riders, including first and foremost yours truly, but I don't publish books showing why others are bad riders, and then go on the lecture circuit and ride worse than they do.

On second thoughts, if people would like to pay to see me yank at my horse's mouth, Booboos Lecture/Demos are now available at a very reasonable cost at a venue near you!
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Agree with you and if an olympic rider with the ability of Klaus B has personally been to see GH to ask him to stop riding at clinics because he is not riding as he preaches, then that's saying something, also they appear to have deemed it so bad that they are refusing to be associated with him at all!
 
my browser automatically translates to english ... this is what is ~roughly says in english

We have long wondered whether we make these pictures online. Previously, we have investigated whether these pictures "individual cases" are one, an unfortunate "slip", a snapshot of the horse Horse of a correction, where it would be unfair to simply as the norm "to" publish them.

The bottom line, and the questions:
1st Gerd Heuschmann is obviously not Rollkursupporters, although the images suggest that.
2nd Gerd Heuschmann rides obviously with a lot of physical strength. with powerful forces to ride a horse correction, in our view, only justified when it comes to the safety of the rider. That was not the case here.
3rd According to the understanding of horsemanship riding requires a correction is always more than one seminar. The white and says Gerd Heuschmann. Why does he then rises at his seminars in the saddle and tried first successes within this short time to achieve with pure power?
4th Everyone makes mistakes, everyone is evolving and that must also each be granted. We hope that we can tell immediately that Gerd Heuschmann waived correction to ride and the limits on what he means the past years has done outstanding in: educate riders how important relationships are biomechanical.

The photos shown below are from a professional photographer and journalist, during a seminar was recorded by Gerd Heuschmann mid-June. The photographer moved the camera and open with large telephoto lens in the hall, Gerd Heuschmann let the pretty pictures of it. The illustrated Friese was ungentlemanly, accepted rein and leg aids barely. "The horse was rather Triebig and lazy," says photographer Julia Rau. The Reiteinheit lasts a good 25 minutes.
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rowy said:
that poor fresian those pictures of it facing the wall :(
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Isn't he just LY along the wall?? Don't see anything wrong with that.

I haven't read many of the replies so I might be repeating what others have said. GH is anti rollkur however surely he could use the argument that the rollkur proponents use when photos of their dodgy riding are published, which is that a photo is only a second in time and we don't know whether the horse momentarily dropped behind the bit (eg) but spent the remainder of the session working correctly. I don't think all of the photos are terrible though they're disappointing, but photos *are* a moment in time. A video would have been better.

The flexions are simply that, though it appears from the photos that he's using rather a lot of strength and rather more than I've been taught to do when I do them (the same flexions he is attempting, from what I can see). It would be interesting to know how long the flexions were held for. The difference for me between rollkur and flexions are that rollkur is forced and held for some length of time, whereas the flexions shouldn't be forced and shouldn't be held for more than a few seconds. I do those side to side flexions, and the FDO flexion on the ground; the longest I would hold the FDO for is 30 seconds, and the S2S for a few seconds, then release by bringing back to the front with a FDO. The article says the horse was "ungentlemanly" and "didn't accept the reins or leg aids". Mine was the same when I started flexion work but I've never needed to use the amount of force GH seems to be using in the photos. If the horse is as bad as the article suggests then I think I'd have preferred to see him start them from the ground rather than ridden. The flexions don't *look* correct from the photos either, the horse is just twisting at the poll from what I can see rather than bending the base of his neck. I think he's also trying to use some of Phillipe Karl's methods judging by where he's holding his hands.

As I say, photos are only a moment in time but I was taught that the sorts of methods PK uses are suitable for more advanced horses (the way he holds his hands, as GH I think is attempting to do) but not for a horse which needs the "correction" this article suggests of the Fresian. It doesn't look strong enough to be working how he's asking it to either.

I wonder whether he has got a bit carried away on his crusade? If you click the link in the posted article, you can get to the full article which states GH has had to retire from the Xenophon Society who have apparently received a lot of complaints about his riding recently...

Disappointing.
 
spookypony said:
According to the text, the photos were taken at a workshop during which he spend ca. 25 minutes working on a "problem" horse. The article's authors take issue with what they perceive as an attempt to accomplish in one session, using brute strength, what Dr H. himself has often acknowledged will generally take many sessions.
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But surely he's going against everything he stands for by apparently trying to achieve all of this on a horse he would usually acknowledge needs more time, which defeats the object? And he appears to be using brute strength which is unacceptable, whether he's riding in a snaffle or a crank and a double. If all of this is true then it's very disappointing. I have lessons with a classical instructor and I would walk out of a lesson if she expected me to work my horse this way. My horse was very weak and disinterested in work when I started my classical lessons - working him the way GH appears to be in the pics would have resulted in GH being summarily deposited on the floor! Thanks to 8 months of building it up slowly, and never ever needing to use the sort of force apparent on those pics, I now have a much stronger horse who *wants* to work. And not once in all of the classical lessons have I been expected to work my horse like those pics.

The problem with this is that GH has put his head above the parapet and is preaching to the rest of the equestrian world about "classical dressage", telling us all how it should be done so he should ensure he is unimpeachable. It's like someone telling us all not to do drugs then we find out they're a cocaine addict...
 
Booboos said:
But this is a person who makes money by advocating training methods that do not use force and claims corrective schooling requires a long and slow approach, therefore HYPOCRITE! He is also a rider with no credits to his riding, e.g. no competitive success, no record of having been a great trainer and helping others, no record of remedial riding for difficult horses.

Loads of people are bad riders, including first and foremost yours truly, but I don't publish books showing why others are bad riders, and then go on the lecture circuit and ride worse than they do.
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^^ This ^^

I personally think his book makes a lot of sense but I'd rather see PK and Anja Beran ride than GH. If corrective schooling takes time then he should demonstrate this, not try to achieve months worth of schooling in 25 mins. I wonder whether he has gone down the route of the Parellis and Monty Roberts now... they believe so much in their own self importance that they think they can preach to the rest of world how they should spend months working on something, yet they can demonstrate it in a 30 min demo like a magic trick.

Sad and disappointing.
 
chestnut cob said:
^^ This ^^

I personally think his book makes a lot of sense but I'd rather see PK and Anja Beran ride than GH. If corrective schooling takes time then he should demonstrate this, not try to achieve months worth of schooling in 25 mins. I wonder whether he has gone down the route of the Parellis and Monty Roberts now... they believe so much in their own self importance that they think they can preach to the rest of world how they should spend months working on something, yet they can demonstrate it in a 30 min demo like a magic trick.

Sad and disappointing.
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I agree CC. rather saddening but his riding skills have never been the equal of his biomechanics knowledge.
video would be better. Last I heard he rather publicly decried PK and the French school so am not sure what he's doing there.
 
For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!

Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).
 
Booboos said:
For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!

Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).
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Agree Booboos I think he's probably rammed the horse to the wall as it was tanking off with him in previous pics.

A Fresian has such a very high set-on head and neck, particularily the neck this was not the way to treat this horse in my opinion, and before anyone asks yes I have ridden a Fresian and they are very different!
 
Booboos said:
For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!
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Hey, I only said you could use the same argument that always gets dragged up in these discussions...that a photo is only a moment in time. You *can* argue that. I never said that was my opinion, just that GH could use that defence. I did in fact go on to say that I don't like what I see in those photos and that I am saddened and disappointed by them, having been a supporter of GH in the past.

I can see what he is trying to achieve but I think he's going about it the wrong way, FWIW. He may not be practising rollkur but those flexions don't look correct to me. There are some pics of PK doing the same flexions in his book but they don't look like that and he doesn't have the tension in his body and face that GH seems to have (surely anyone can see that?). If he has decried the French school and PK then I am even more bewildered because I can't understand why he would be attempting Baucher flexions if he doesn't believe in them!
 
chestnut cob said:
Hey, I only said you could use the same argument that always gets dragged up in these discussions...that a photo is only a moment in time. You *can* argue that. I never said that was my opinion, just that GH could use that defence. I did in fact go on to say that I don't like what I see in those photos and that I am saddened and disappointed by them, having been a supporter of GH in the past.

I can see what he is trying to achieve but I think he's going about it the wrong way, FWIW. He may not be practising rollkur but those flexions don't look correct to me. There are some pics of PK doing the same flexions in his book but they don't look like that and he doesn't have the tension in his body and face that GH seems to have (surely anyone can see that?). If he has decried the French school and PK then I am even more bewildered because I can't understand why he would be attempting Baucher flexions if he doesn't believe in them!
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Sorry I meant that to be QR not reply to you, as a couple of people seem to have suggested that the photo is an instant in time that does not give a good picture. Totally agree with you that the argument works both ways, especially if it is one, isolated photo.
 
Booboos said:
Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall? I was always taught that impulsion must be maintained and it is a "one step sideways, one step forward" movement. Wouldn't practicing it in a way that stops the horse from moving forwards at all defeat the purpose? Also, how do you come out of the movement if you are facing a wall? (again I have been taught that the transition out of the movement should be as precise and clear as the transition into it, so I tend to always ask for more impulsion out of LY, half-pass, shoulder in).
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Yes, especially when teaching a horse who doesnt understand how to move sideways away from the leg it's incredibly useful. I teach my baby horses how to leg yield using this method. Sure, it's not a test movement but it has benefits
 
Booboos said:
For the people who think the photos are only a moment in time, they are time stamped so really they are frequent moments in time, pretty much one every minute!
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Actually the photos of the alleged rollkur start at 16.53.26 and end at 16.53.50 so he did this for less than 25 seconds. A fleeting moment in time.

Just out of interest, do people practice LY facing a wall?
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Yes.
 
jaypeebee said:
Actually the photos of the alleged rollkur start at 16.53.26 and end at 16.53.50 so he did this for less than 25 seconds. A fleeting moment in time.


Yes.
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I don;t think this is rollkur, as it is far too forceful and has no impulsion from behind whatsoever. My problem is with all the photos in this sequence which show a rider using far too much strength in his arms and upper body, his position is entirely distorted, his upper body behind the vertical, his legs are all over the place, etc. when I would expect a young horse to be encouraged to work from behind and forget about the outline for now (if the horse is not young, but has problems accepting the leg, again I would expect the trainer to forget about the front end and just work on getting the horse moving forwards from the leg in a good rhythm).

Would you care to expand on that?
 
Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?
 
Sorry if this has already been translated, just not got time to search through everything.
My (German) husband has done a direct translation - so its very accurate..... here goes.... hope its of some use! ;-)

Gerd Heuschmann riding a horse in need of correction

We have deliberated for a long time whether to put these pictures on the web. Before we did, we conducted research to determine whether these pictures were an isolated case, an unlucky “mistake”, or a snapshot taken out of context, whilst riding a difficult horse that needs correction, which would simply be unfair if we gave the impression that this is “normal” for him.



The conclusions we came to are:
1. Gerd Heuschmann is – as is known – opposed to Rollkur, even if these photos suggest differently
2. Gerd Heuschmann obviously rides using a lot of physical strength. Riding a horse in need of correction by the use of excessive physical strength is in our opinion only justified when the safety of the rider is compromised / at risk. This was clearly not the case here.
3. Under the principles of humane riding, correcting a difficult horse always takes more than one schooling session. Mr Heuschmann knows as much, and regularly states as much himself. So why does he mount horses in his seminars and attempts to achieve results within short timespans by brute force?

4. Everybody makes mistakes. Everybody moves on and develops with experience. That is every person’s prerogative, and we grant that. Which is why we hope to be able to report soon that Gerd Heuschmann does not ride in a corrective function anymore and limits himself to what he has done over the past years so successfully: which is instructing riders in the importance of biomechanical aspects of riding.



The photos below were taken by a professional photographer and journalist during a seminar held by Gerd Heuschmann mid June. The photographer was moving openly around the hall, with a huge telephoto lens attached to her camera. Gerd Heuschmann knew that she was there and showed no objection or distraction by her presence. The Friesian in the pictures was obstructive, not responding to and objecting to seat and leg aids. The photographer Julia Rau said “The horse was obtuse and lazy”. The lesson documented took around 25 minutes.



In the original webpage, there is a link to a discussion forum about this article at this point.



Please note:
This photo is subject to copyright laws and is sole property of Julia Rau. These photos must not be used either privately or commercially unless with the express permission of Julia Rau. We have sorted the photos chronologically by their time stamps.
 
Charlie_F_K said:
Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?
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Yes I get it - and don't understand the problem either :) Yes it would be lovely if horses instantly understood what we meant and we could sit on them looking elegant and still BUT in reality we have to let them know what we want and sometimes this means exagerating movements so that eventually aids can be subtle. I don't think the horse is being forced by bodyweight etc, in fact I think he is being very correct in his position. Just my opinion :D
 
Charlie_F_K said:
Argh! This horse is not being asked to work in an outline!! If you look at the angle of the picture the neck is being flexed sideways not through it's poll! I really don't understand how people don't get what he is doing?? LY itself you would practise going forwards yes, of course. But to get a horse yielding from pressure in general of course you can do it facing a wall to help. This is only like pushing its hind over when on the ground and getting it's shoulder to follow. Maybe parts of his body are everywhere, and it's not what you would see from general riding, but if you are trying to show a horse through something then surely you have to exaggerate your movements? Yes?
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No, effective riding should appear effortless. I've never seen Cark Hester for example throw himself about like that and he was ridden horses that were by anyone's standard hot and challenging.

I think we are talking about different things though as I would not do the LY with quarters leading, I was always taught shoulders should be leading in LY and half-pass.
 
chestnut cob said:
But surely he's going against everything he stands for by apparently trying to achieve all of this on a horse he would usually acknowledge needs more time, which defeats the object? And he appears to be using brute strength which is unacceptable, whether he's riding in a snaffle or a crank and a double. If all of this is true then it's very disappointing. I have lessons with a classical instructor and I would walk out of a lesson if she expected me to work my horse this way. My horse was very weak and disinterested in work when I started my classical lessons - working him the way GH appears to be in the pics would have resulted in GH being summarily deposited on the floor! Thanks to 8 months of building it up slowly, and never ever needing to use the sort of force apparent on those pics, I now have a much stronger horse who *wants* to work. And not once in all of the classical lessons have I been expected to work my horse like those pics.

The problem with this is that GH has put his head above the parapet and is preaching to the rest of the equestrian world about "classical dressage", telling us all how it should be done so he should ensure he is unimpeachable. It's like someone telling us all not to do drugs then we find out they're a cocaine addict...
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I've also had some lessons from a classical instructor. I previously rode my uncooperative horse too low and behind the bit. It's only in the last couple of years of having lessons with this instructor that I now have a cooperative horse who can go out and win - no stress, no problems and he is thoroughly enjoying himself. I have also been taught that the poll should be the highest point - not the middle of the neck....I don't know enough, but I know that I don't like those photos....
 
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