Shocking Rollkur Photo!

Booboos said:
Totally disgusting...and nothing to do with rollkur, but this is the second post on this forum to post this photo and shout rollkur. Frankly I would assume that if people are so pashionately against something they would at least bother to find out what it is.
Click to expand...

Goldenstar said:
This not a picture of rolkur ,
At least take the trouble to understand what rolkur is.
Click to expand...

in my defence, if you had taken the trouble to read my original post you would notice that this image came up when searching for rollkur, therefore i had no reason to assume that it wasn't... and its quite evident from the photo that it is very easy to misinterpret this as a rollkur training method..

appologies for getting it wrong (as per) but my initial thoughts still stand - this should not be allowed and im sure many people will back me up on this.
 
well it isnt allowed and I believe that the perpetrators were being prosecuted or at least some action being taken against them.

The pic is a good 6 months old ish and I suspect peoplel thought you had a new interesting pic ;). There is another of a grey with a loop and ring type system which surfaced around the same time.
 
If the definition of Rollkur is "hyperflexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" then what do you call this?

Apart from hideous of course.

I think it's interesting that some might wish to suggest there is a difference between this and ridden Rollkur, in order to legitimise the latter as a 'training method'. Perhaps the perpetrator of this would say the same?
 
BeesKnees said:
If the definition of Rollkur is "hyperflexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" then what do you call this?

Apart from hideous of course.

I think it's interesting that some might wish to suggest there is a difference between this and ridden Rollkur, in order to legitimise the latter as a 'training method'. Perhaps the perpetrator of this would say the same?
Click to expand...

Thank you, I am no expert, and wouldn't claim to be, but I agree with your comment wholeheartedly .
 
what worries me is people are having a go and saying get your facts straight, lets say it's not called rollkur then... what shall we call it?

Abuse of an innocent animal!
 
Rollkur is a training technique that involves movement, it is not practiced stationary (unlike Baucherite neck flexions for example). It is important to have a very active hind leg when placing the horse in this neck position so it is not possible to do it in a halt. At least according to those who practice it, e.g. Sjef and Anky explaining their training at the BD convention.
 
BeesKnees said:
If the definition of Rollkur is "hyperflexion of the horse's neck achieved through aggressive force" then what do you call this?

Apart from hideous of course.

I think it's interesting that some might wish to suggest there is a difference between this and ridden Rollkur, in order to legitimise the latter as a 'training method'. Perhaps the perpetrator of this would say the same?
Click to expand...

No I am not giving any view on rolkur I am saying that picture which if my memory serves me right in from Africa does not show rolkur and adds nothing to the debate .
Rolkur is a part of a training system used ridden that picture is straight cruelty .
There's no attempt to train there.
It is very easy to put horses into a rolkur position without aggressive force if the horse going forward easily and is senestive in its mouth so then is not rolkur ?
 
Last edited:
Goldenstar said:
Rolkur is a part of a training system used ridden
Click to expand...

That is certainly how we are used to seeing it, but is that in the FEI definition? I'm not sure. I know what is quoted is the 'flexion achieved through aggressive force'. By that definition this is Rollkur.

I haven't heard about this story, so was there a reason given by the person who committed this cruelty as to why they did? Was it literally wanton cruelty, or was it to achieve something , such as a set head position? If so, then they would argue what they are doing is a training method.

You see I think this is interesting and gets to the heart of what 'methods' we decide are acceptable to use when trying to achieve something for our own ends. I think we are all agreed this is abuse. But some would say using a strong bit to put their horses head in the same position is ok.

My question would then be, what makes it different? :confused:
 
I don't think many would say that picture is not abuse .
The rolkur issue is complicated as I said you can put a horse LLand D without force you can put horses whose conformation makes it easy for them in rolkur without force does that make it ok ?
FWIW I think a lot of the pictures of Parsizal show a horse short in neck and overbent but not rolkur.
 
Just to add I know a German lady well who used to work on SJ and Dressage yards over there and it was common place for the horses to be tied up in bridles with draw reins on in rolkur in their stables for a period everyday.....sickening
 
I worked on a yard for oooh about a week....I left when I found one the horse's tacked and side reined so bloody tight that you couldn't pull them that little bit you need to when you undo something.
I asked the producer where were they riding and they weren't!
I untacked pony, called the owner who removed the pony and told the RSPCA who duly visited but saw no cause for concern :(
 
Pixxie said:
Just to add I know a German lady well who used to work on SJ and Dressage yards over there and it was common place for the horses to be tied up in bridles with draw reins on in rolkur in their stables for a period everyday.....sickening
Click to expand...

That's been done for years I saw it with side riens in a showing yard thirty years ago.
Rolkur is working the horse in a low deep and very overbent neck and head position it's a working system.
Rolkur as a 'system ' is really quite young .
I would not call standing with draw riens on rolkur it's just tieing the horses down, it's ridiculous out dated customn but it's not rolkur .
 
As said above this picture is not Rollkur.

BUT it does re-instill in the viewer the horror that many no longer feel in seeing Rollkur because the grotesque nature of it has faded away with overexposure.

What the trainers seek to achieve with the practice in the photo is equivalent to what Janssen et al seek to achieve by Rollkur: utter submission and extravagant front leg action which comes with a locked back.

So the photo is useful in the debate about Rollkur though it does not depict Rollkur.
 
TwoStroke said:
I don't have 'proof', but I know people who show who have seen similar things. Everyone knows these things go on in the showing industry, so don't bother to be all 'offended'.
Click to expand...

Any why would I be "offended"? I am not a producer! You need to set out your proof rather than "my mate told me" and no "these things" do not go on in the showing industry - certainly not in this country - you find me one case of anything so much as resembling this type of cruelty - go on!

Oh and the photo is NOT a show producing yard!
 
Last edited:
TwoStroke said:
I don't need to do anything of the sort. I'm not in court, I'm making casual remarks on a public forum, and not in breech of th T&C.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, casual remarks posted on the internet for all to read
can be misconstrued at best, or used in litigation at worst.
Its your blithe comment regarding this type of thing happening currently in showing that has a few people rather hot under the collar.
For example, I am sure others in the hunting forum would be as equally put out if you posted in there something that perhaps had no substance & was only actually hearsay.
This is how things get perpetuated - and how some people will believe what is typed & then pass on the same comments - not ever thinking of the harm they might do to innocent 3rd parties/companies/organisations etc.
Happens the world over with myths and lies.

Back to the OP - that is abuse. Full stop.
Not at all pleasant :mad: & am sure most here would love to string up anyone who carried out the likes of that!
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top