Shoeing problems!

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Horse Gifts Central

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hi I was wondering if you can help me, I've had my first horse about 2 months now, he got shod the week before I bought him so he didn't need doing until about a month ago. I got the farrier out to come do him as his last owner said he was fine but he really got ate up and angry about the whole situation and ended up going barefoot for about a week and a half. He then went lame and we got the front shoes back on. But everytime I try getting the farrier out now he either snaps the leadrope and runs off, or knocks people out the way and charges out and my farrier has just had to give up trying and just told me to sell him and get a new one which is something I am not doing as I don't believe in giving up when things get hard. But I am really stuck on where to go next and I am really considering filing them down myself with a rasp. but what do I do about the shoe he currently has on? as I don't want to wait for it to drop off and do any damage? Thanks
 
Sounds as though you need some experienced help, and a farrier with patience - sometimes it's a man thing (some horses only ever get shod/injected/broken by men with short fuses lol). I suggest an Intelligent Horsemanship Recommended Associate (RA) to help you handle your horse when he gets stressed and show you how to desensitise him to things which clearly scare him http://www.intelligenthorsemanship.co.uk/specialist-horse-training.html, plus a farrier who is prepared to help both of you by spending the time it takes. Where in the country are you?
 
Removing the shoes is normally easier than shoeing, so your farrier can probably manage that and hope that you can keep him barefoot.
It is possible that he was shod by former owners while he was sedated!
Its not too easy to buy and sell horses, so you are probably stuck with him unless the previous owner was a dealer, and you can return him..
Many horses can be kept barefoot, but you may have to manage him.
One shoe on and one off will make most horses unlevel, so best to get all shoes off.
An experienced person may help you, and a farrier who is more helpful.
What is his normal temperament, age and exercise regime, I am assuming he is out all day in a field with friends?
 
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I don't know whether he's scared or just literally taking the piss. I'm - small 5'4 and he's a 15.3hh TB x Cob x Irish draught and knows how to use his weight against you, anyone know how I can manage this and stop him pulling off and being rude? I know his old owner used to hold a whip with her but that's not the way I want to do it! but if I have to I will. He's 10 years old and should know better. I've even tried the dermosedan gel on him but he gets that ate up about taking it adrenaline just takes over. Also I've noticed he's better with woman than men (a man couldn't sedate into vein but woman could) but there's no woman farriers around here! and I'm based in West Yorkshire x
 
he is normally in a field with 4 others (including happy foal) but he's currently in a field on his own next to them as he's lame and should be on box rest but panics in a stable. and he hasn't been properly worked for about a month as he is lame for other reasons a shoe may have fixed.
 
Any farrier I have ever used has been a lot more patient the your current one!

If it were me I would try a different farrier, and I would use a twitch to start with. Although I firmly believe that this sort of problem/fear of being shod can be improved I think you should prepare yourself with it taking a while to sort out.

Also try feeding a mug of dried hops before the farrier comes, it can really help settle an anxious horse.

If you go down the route of giving a sedative then make sure you give it half an hour before the farrier arrives when he is quite and calm.
 
we've tried a twich but he's that strong now when you go to put it on or even grab him he just throws himself up and runs off. What's dried hops? I've just started him on a calmer today to see if he will settle down. I've tried sedation but again adrenalin takes over and it's a waste of £30 again :(
 
Fair enough, sorry my suggestions haven't been helpful!

If you think he might be taking the mick then is there a strong man to hold him and see if that makes a difference - then you would probably be able to tell if its fear or naughtiness.
 
no it's fine anything is helping thankyou! yeah he probably is taking the mick and yes my dad has held him before and he has just been the same he's just too strong for his own good! just walks straight through you :(
 
Poor chap, sounds to me as though he has been bullied and forced and frightened for most of his life, with a former owner needing a whip to coerce him into things he is scared of. Saying he should know better really isn't appropriate - they only know what they have been taught and it sounds as though he has been very effectively taught the art of self defence. Get your local RA out who will help you turn it on its head and teach him humans CAN be trusted and he DOESN'T have to be scared of everything - you often find the ones who have been difficult are really keen to learn if you go a bout it the right way and then they will go to the ends of the earth for you.
 
Yeah I probably should've worded that better sorry. His old owner said he was good for shoeing so she has obviously lied about that so what else has she lied about! yeah will do he really did me proud tonight after the incident though I went in the field with him about half an hour ago and got him to stand and pick his feet up as I've noticed he is worse tied up (which didn't help when the farrier tied him an inch away from the tie ring today) and by the end he stood for me, let me spray his feet and pick them out and held them up for me! :)
 
Fantastic, then pick up his feet every time you see him. Is there a certain part of the shoring process that he doesn't like? Banging, nailing, smoke etc?
 
yep will do think he knew I was quite upset with him earlier so didn't want to annoy me any more hahaha, no it's just as soon as the farrier even gets there! he just won't stand especially when he goes to pick his feet up all hell breaks loose!
 
I would get a barefoot trimmer out and ask them to remove any shoes you don't want and to trim him. You don't necessarily have to keep him barefoot forever but it will be a start. Make sure it is a female trimmer, there are lots of them, and watch what happens. Most female trimmers have a lot of patience and experience in dealing with difficult horses and the horses don't react half as badly as for a male farrier. You will learn a lot as to whether he is terrified or simply being an idiot. You should be able then to work out if something has happened with a farrier in the past to cause this or if he is trying it on.
If you don't know of a barefoot trimmer put a post up asking for recommendations in your area.

If he is worse tied he may have had an incident from being tied up in his past. If the farrier tied him very short he may have found it frightening that he couldn't move his head. You could teach him to ground tie. He probably hasn't learnt that and he may be more cooperative if there is nothing to fight against.
 
Sounds to me like it's fear, my old TB is like this for the EDT, he will happily stand for the gag, lower his head for a fuss, but as soon as he sees the tools he panics, being 17 2hh, when he puts his head up or rears, there's little you can do, he fought 3 sedative injections, resulting in him going down, vet sitting on his neck and EDT doing his job, both vet and EDT agree he must have had a horrific experience in the past to get such an reaction from a normally placid horse
 
I think you will probably win through in the end, but do what you can do with him, and if you need to handle him in a bridle rather than a headcollar, don't worry about it, as long as he is co operating. You can't remove bridle to let hm go in to the field in case he catches his teeth in the bridle as he run off.
Your farrier sounds very unhelpful tbh. I did have a horse who was fine to be shod loose in his stable, but not otherwise, he was a tad quirky, but not bargy, which is something you need to overcome. A dually halter might be the best thing to re train him.
 
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okay thankyou! we have tried a chifney before but made no difference and I have been looking at the shally headcollars! but was wondering if the be nice headcollars would work better as even when I wrap a leadrope round his nose it makes no difference but in the be nice headcollars it's poll pressure?
 
If he is in panic mode (which it sound like he is) no amount of gadgets will do more than convince him he is right to be so scared - remember for him, as a prey animal his mind is telling him his life is at risk, so he will fight for his life. Train him, don't tie him down, and if you need experienced help, get it.
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
thankyou but you say train him, how would I go about doing that?
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You have to start with what he can cope with, so whatever he can do, you do this first and then ask for a little more. If you have an arena, he can be worked in this to start with, eg ask him to walk in hand over poles. If he will hack out with another that would help too.
 
okay thankyou, unfortunately we don't have an arena but do have a little paddock we ride in. At the minute he's supposed to be on box rest which doesn't help but as soon as he's ready I will start. He's fine to hack out with horses from the yard with the odd silly spooks, but as soon as I try getting him out on his own he won't even leave the yard unless someone's walking with him!
 
It could be that shoeing is painful for him, he isn't necessarily being naughty.

Try a patient farrier (they vary a lot) post your area for recommendations on here or ask your vet for suggestions of someone good with young nervous horses.

It might be worth having him sedated by the vet first time so you can get his feet sorted safely. You can then step down to sedalin when he has had a good experience.

Alternatively try a trimmer but you will have to put some work into barefoot and challenge your beliefs.

If it helps I bought a horse who was bad to shoe, she was young and nervous and not very good at standing on three legs. The first farrier I had out picked one foot up and when she struggled to put it down he said she'd tried to kick him and he refused to touch her without full vet sedation.

I tried a different farrier, I told him about the previous one, and who had shod her for the seller. I told this farrier that if necessary he could just take her shoes off and we'd go bare. He said, "we'll see". He managed to shoe her without sedative or incident for 18 months before we went bare. Apart from not tying her up and holding her in a bridle all we used was patience and calmness..Eventually she was good enough that the farrier could do her alone. Now she is barefoot and can be rasped loose or tied up and she is perfectly calm.
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
okay thankyou, unfortunately we don't have an arena but do have a little paddock we ride in. At the minute he's supposed to be on box rest which doesn't help but as soon as he's ready I will start. He's fine to hack out with horses from the yard with the odd silly spooks, but as soon as I try getting him out on his own he won't even leave the yard unless someone's walking with him!
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That is fine, just persuade someone to walk in front of him as you walk along on a light contact or loose rein, keep going and he will start licking and chewing when he has overcome his fear. Repeat lots of times even if walks are very short.
You are a long way off hacking out on your own, so don't even try till you have overcome lots of little problems along the way. If necessary you will have to walk him out yourself, and normally you ask a horse to walk in hand by walking alongside, ie lead from the shoulder, but in his case you may have to train him to do this in the paddock, then walk out on tracks.
When you decide he is ready, you can start off with someone, then dismount and let him eat some nice grass while his pal walks on , then you can decide whether it is safe to re mount and go on or go home.
He should be used to you getting off when out on hacks, and getting on, if you can do this sort of thing it makes everything less of an "incident".
Many areas in the UK are short of magnesiun, if you put him on a calmer like Feedmark steady up, you should have a calmer horse.
Or feed forageplus summer balancer which is high in Mg and also the correct minerals for hoof growth.
 
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You (or any strong man) won't hold a horse of any size if they really don't want to stand ! (my 7hh mini would walk through you if he desired) how is he generally to handle ? tie up nicely to groom, stand at the mounting block, wait to do gates out hacking?

If it's just shoes then work with your farrier (or a better one) to desensitise him to that - every time you pick out his feet tap them, pick up and put them down repeatedly etc etc.
If he's generally ill mannered and bargy then get some advice on how to improve all of his behaviour and the shoes bit will come in time. If he's got away with barging for 10 years then you may have a big project on your hands !

I have heard of horses being IV sedated to shoe (so it must be £150 + a set!) if this was the only option I'd do proper bare foot rehab and just try and avoid the issue.
 
thankyou everyone! I'm excited to try everyone's ideas and see where it gets us as giving up as the farrier suggested for me is not an option! :) he is almost perfect out hacking on his own when someone walks with him when I took him out last time my dad walked in front to the point where I got stuck moving him forward last time, then he gradually dropped back and he walked on his own in front the whole way round after and even went off down a field with me where he couldn't see my dad and was perfect! it was a completely new area aswell! so he is good sometimes! Hehe,
I would put the farrier thing to pain but even picking his foot up he flips and throws himself everywhere! I've reached out to every farrier known to man in my area and non have the balls (sorry about language) to try and work with him to shoe! -.-

Generally to handle he's not bad, he has his quirks like when I go to tie him up he spins his neck round and its that strong he just walks off! So I bring him back round and keep doing it until he stands for me to tie.

but I know he's started testing me as he used to put his bridle on nicely but now he acts like a giraffe.

he has definitely got away with a lot the past 10 years and he's not doing it with me!
 
Until he is perfect for you to pick his feet out I'd forget a farrier - you can do a huge amount by yourself - it's not unreasonable for farriers not to want to work with difficult horses as it's their income at risk if they are injured and can't work.

Did you have him vetted? joint pain might make lifting his feet tricky for him.

If he's getting worse to handle for you (bridle on etc.) then maybe worth investing in some groundwork help/ advice - even if you think he's not getting away with stuff he thinks he is !!
 
ok thankyou what shall I do about the current shoe still on? as I don't want to do what the farrier said and let it drop off as I don't want it to cause further damage or joint/muscle strain?

no stupidly I did not get him vetted it was my first horse (I know that's no excuse especially when I study horse management at college) but I just completely didn't even think about it and I regret that now but nothing I can do about it! :( He does need his back doing which I am going to get out within the next couple of weeks.

Where do I go from here for groundwork advice? :)
 
No. 1 - get a vet to tell you whether his fussing about lifting his legs is physical or mental - no point doing any work if he's in pain every time he does what you ask!

No rush on the shoes that are on until they get to 5/6 weeks old - with help you could easily have got to the stage where they can be safely removed by then

Ask your riding instructor, livery yard owner, local pony club etc etc. who is good in your local area for groundwork help and get them to come and look at him and give you some things to practice. It's almost impossible to give advice without seeing exactly what he's doing - it could range from chaining him to a concrete post so he can't get away and he's just being a total d*&k through to very quiet gentle practice just standing to be groomed and a million other options inbetween - to be judged on how he is in the flesh!
 
thankyou so much! really appreciate it :)

I had the vet out last Monday and she said he had sore back muscles on his left hand side, she said that it isn't where the saddle sits so shouldn't be that but to get it checked to rule it out anyway.
Then to get the physio out which is what I am going to do after I get my invoice for the vet bills to see where im at, I'm working tuesday wednesday so will use that to get the physio.

okay thankyou about the shoes advice it just worries me that he's only got one on?

People at my livery yard have really helped me out which I am greatful for but will ask my riding instructors to see what they can suggest :)
 
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