Shoeing problems!

Polos Mum said:
You (or any strong man) won't hold a horse of any size if they really don't want to stand ! (my 7hh mini would walk through you if he desired) how is he generally to handle ? tie up nicely to groom, stand at the mounting block, wait to do gates out hacking?

If it's just shoes then work with your farrier (or a better one) to desensitise him to that - every time you pick out his feet tap them, pick up and put them down repeatedly etc etc.
If he's generally ill mannered and bargy then get some advice on how to improve all of his behaviour and the shoes bit will come in time. If he's got away with barging for 10 years then you may have a big project on your hands !


I have heard of horses being IV sedated to shoe (so it must be £150 + a set!) if this was the only option I'd do proper bare foot rehab and just try and avoid the issue.
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I agree, I had occasion to be asked to help with shoeing, the pony was 13.2 Highland and he was dangerous, there was only one farrier willing to try, I called a halt as it was obvious one of us was going to get hurt, pony lifted me off my feet and carried me several yards!
That was before I learned that ponies don't need shoes, it took another 30 years to learn that lesson!
 
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It's almost impossible for us to devise a training schedule for you without seeing him - he might not be happy being tied up, he might have arthritic conditions which might make it painful to lift his feet, he might have been badly scared by the feeling of having shoes nailed on, he might not trust you enough, he might be uncomfortable being away from his field mates..................the list goes on. You need someone who can read his reactions and spot what triggers them, hence the suggestion of getting an RA out - Gary Bosworth is in Lincs and is very good, as are all the RAs, they have had to reach a certain standard to be on the list.
 
JillA said:
It's almost impossible for us to devise a training schedule for you without seeing him - he might not be happy being tied up, he might have arthritic conditions which might make it painful to lift his feet, he might have been badly scared by the feeling of having shoes nailed on, he might not trust you enough, he might be uncomfortable being away from his field mates..................the list goes on. You need someone who can read his reactions and spot what triggers them, hence the suggestion of getting an RA out - Gary Bosworth is in Lincs and is very good, as are all the RAs, they have had to reach a certain standard to be on the list.
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this. When you buy a horse you also buy his history. He has a very long memory and anything can trigger it. You need to work out why he is doing things. You can see his entire history by working with him and watching him. To make progress you need to watch someone who can read him working with him, preferably someone who is experienced but sympathetic.
Is there someone like this at your yard. They don't need to be qualified just experienced. If that person can tie him up, ride on his own, pick up his feet etc then he may be taking you for a ride. If they have problems then it could well be the horse.

If he is unhappy tying up have you taught him to move into pressure and tie up properly? If he puts his head up for the bridle have you taught him to bring his head down on command?
 
He sounds like a typical ignorant cob who may or may not have behaved like this all his life. It doesn't take much for them to take over. I've just bought one who I viewed, didn't buy, went to a novice for 8 months, took over and then I bought out a dealers yard when they couldn't cope any more. The horse was fine with first owner and it took three weeks for me to return her to previous reasonable behaviour. Had I not seen her previously, I wouldn't have bought her and I would have believed the horse was totally insane.

You need to get someone to help with him generally, someone who can deal with cobs and show you how to be the boss without using strength and force (because you won't win that way!)
 
Did you but the horse from a dealer if so return it ASAP .
If not then handle as it's old owner did .
If holding a dressage whip worked what's the problem it can't be said endangering the horse the farrier ( which is unforgivable ) and yourself because you don't want to do it that way is a safer less stressful way to go about it .
You need to get the shoes off the horse as a start .
This will be a job for the vet and farrier vet can manage the sedation and farrier whip the shoes off in the safest way possible .
Did you have the horse vetted ?
What's questions did you ask about shoeing when you bought the horse and what did the owner say ?
You need to get some good advice on the ground fast , from the vet on the health status of the horse and from someone used to handling bolsy badly trained horses .
What does the horse do when you handle it's feet ?
Have you spoken to it's previous farrier ?
What does the old owner say about it ? Have you rung her for advice ?
 
The very fact it was shod a few days before you got it is suspicious if you had already agreed to buy it, most dealers round here send horses out with shoes hanging off so new owner picks up the bill.
Btw many people will deny being a dealer but as far as the law is concerned they need sell very few horses before that status is met.
 
he was fine to pick his feet up when he was with his old owner as I picked his feet up and so did she and he held them up perfectly. No she wasn't a dealer as she only had him and another little pony who her daughters rode and only sold him as she had a 1 year old and couldn't cope. My dad looked after him for me for a week and said he was fine to pick up his feet and everything yet with me he just won't. he is getting better though... I have also noticed he has lines on his bum where it looks like someone has abused him with a long whip which is why I'm reluctant to using one, especially with riding as the first time I ised one he flipped so went to riding with a short one. I also noticed today I held the long whip near his belly... never budged yet as soon as I moved it near his bum he flinched and shot off. so god knows what happened to the poor thing! :(
 
and he was only shod a few days before I officially bought him because I asked her to get him shod for me as her farrier was already coming out to trim him so I paid for half his shoes doing and she paid the other half because I just thought he might aswell be shod for when I brought him home
 
You need to get someone who knows what they are doing to help you before you ruin this horse further .
If you have had the horse two months the 'whip lines 'are not caused by a whip .
You really sound as though you don't have enough knowledge to be dealing with this if the horse picks up his feet for your dad but won't for you the issue is you .
Have you spoken to his previous farrier ?
Have you asked the previous owner ?
Have you got some experienced sensible help ?
Did you get the horse vetted ?
 
*sorry in advance for the language*

are you actually ****ing serious?

you have NO IDEA what my past experience is. at all. so in no way should you be saying I'm going to 'ruin this horse further' or even implying that I have ruined him in the first place!

as far as the whip goes I was only suggesting it. I wasn't saying that was definitely it as I'm no ****ing mind reader. Just trying to put the pieces together as to why he is how he is.

my dad is a lot stronger and larger than me which means and this goes for any horse that they are reluctant to misbehave. plus my dad doesn't ride him it's only me.

I have spoken to the previous farrier ( or the name of a guy the woman gave me) who said he only shod him once and he was naughty. (She obviously lied). Yes I have asked the previous owner she said he's fine. My yard owner is helping who has had 20+ years experience dealing with horses. Implying I'm not sensible is just rude.

no I stupidly did not get him vetted as I've said before but nothing I can do about that not I admit it was a stupid mistake.

but implying I've ruined him and will continue is just rude. I'm open to advice not statements. and you being rude gives me the right to be rude back so please, piss off as nobody's perfect if you haven't got anything nice to say or suggest.
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
*sorry in advance for the language*

are you actually ****ing serious?

you have NO IDEA what my past experience is. at all. so in no way should you be saying I'm going to 'ruin this horse further' or even implying that I have ruined him in the first place!

as far as the whip goes I was only suggesting it. I wasn't saying that was definitely it as I'm no ****ing mind reader. Just trying to put the pieces together as to why he is how he is.

my dad is a lot stronger and larger than me which means and this goes for any horse that they are reluctant to misbehave. plus my dad doesn't ride him it's only me.

I have spoken to the previous farrier ( or the name of a guy the woman gave me) who said he only shod him once and he was naughty. (She obviously lied). Yes I have asked the previous owner she said he's fine. My yard owner is helping who has had 20+ years experience dealing with horses. Implying I'm not sensible is just rude.

no I stupidly did not get him vetted as I've said before but nothing I can do about that not I admit it was a stupid mistake.

but implying I've ruined him and will continue is just rude. I'm open to advice not statements. and you being rude gives me the right to be rude back so please, piss off as nobody's perfect if you haven't got anything nice to say or suggest.
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And there we have why the horse is difficult for you to handle horses do not respond well to angry people .
You did not get the horse vetted but Imput from a vet is now needed.
If you took a witness with you to the viewing ( something I always do ) you will have someone who heard the owner say the horse was ok to shoe but the farrier has said he was naughty however if the farrier only shod him once he must have been BF when you viewed him or there must be another farrier involved somewhere .
He was naughty but arrived shod so why is he so bad now the farrier can't get the shoes off
You might have enough leverage to return the horse to her as it being a private sale does not give an owner the right to lie with impunity .
Are you handling his feet daily ? Banging them with a hammer ? This is what an experienced person would be doing .
Have you watched your dad pick up his feet what's he doing differently to you , this is also odd as you said he did not men .
Is the horse lame in some way has a something happened since he arrived to make it difficult for him to hold up his legs ?
Approach handling a badly behaved horse in a illogical way and you will spoil him further and it's always always the poor horse that suffers the most and has it live with consequences .
Can your YOer pick up his feet ?
If the issue is a male farrier perhaps a female trimmer or vet or farrier if there's one anywhere near could be prepared to take their life in their hands and get the shoes off for you .
The first step is is to get a vet to assess if the horse has a major physical issue that's makes it painful for him if so you could try to give pain relief and get the shoes off then you have a breathing space to try to sort out where you are and make a plan .
 
I react way differently to horses than I would humans. Horses don't intent to piss people off, humans do, likewise.

I've had a vet out to him as he has developed a thrush like infection in his heel bulbs and I am not on top of managing that. She couldn't even get him to pick his feet up correctly and he had to be sedated to be examined.
The only reason I say he's better with woman than men is because when I got his teeth done, he wouldn't let the male vet sedate him into the vein it had to be into the muscle, whereas a female vet could to it into the vein.

he's been on bute for the past week because of his heels and it has made no difference when it comes to picking up his feet. And I have previously reached out to every farrier that does our area known to man and none are willing to come do him.

it's not about what experience I have, it's about determination of anyone believes they can do it, they will, and that is the way I look at things not whether you have ****ing experience .
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
I react way differently to horses than I would humans. Horses don't intent to piss people off, humans do, likewise.

I've had a vet out to him as he has developed a thrush like infection in his heel bulbs and I am not on top of managing that. She couldn't even get him to pick his feet up correctly and he had to be sedated to be examined.
The only reason I say he's better with woman than men is because when I got his teeth done, he wouldn't let the male vet sedate him into the vein it had to be into the muscle, whereas a female vet could to it into the vein.

he's been on bute for the past week because of his heels and it has made no difference when it comes to picking up his feet. And I have previously reached out to every farrier that does our area known to man and none are willing to come do him.

it's not about what experience I have, it's about determination of anyone believes they can do it, they will, and that is the way I look at things not whether you have ****ing experience .
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Farriers do not like dangerous horses , a farrier is so vulnerable to major injury .
Have you tried twitching him ?I hesitate to say this because I hate twitches but I have seen two very good grooms a vet and farrier trim the hind feet of a appallingly behaved horse using some sedation and a twitch .
You need tall people to help you're at less risk from the twitch that way .
Not all pain reacts to bute it's not good that it has not helped .
What does he do when you try to pick up his feet ?
 
Firstly I have great respect for Goldenstar who is very knowledgable and gives lots of excellent advice so I say this despite your rather abrasive response to her. The fact the woman told you he is good to shoe but the previous farrier said he is naughty is the best thing to happen to you. You need to get more info from the farrier as to how the horse behaved and then ring the seller up and tell her she misrepresented the horse to you, wilfully misled you and made fraudulent statements. Tell her you want her to take the horse back pronto and refund you else you will bring a lawsuit.
 
Simple question to which I'm looking for an honest answer - are you scared of handling him? If you are, that is the problem, it is a vicious cycle, which escalates. I go back to my original advice, get an RA to show you how to handle him.
 
I understand that farriers don't want to risk themselves and I would in no way expect them to even consider it when they have families and lives themselves. Which is why I let him go. yep tried a twitch before but once you do it once he won't even go near you
 
I've been looking at your other thread, and if this is the same horse, then in two months he has

- been on bute and box rest for a pricked foot

- had a sore shoulder

- had muscle soreness unrelated to saddle fit diagnosed by your vet, requiring physio which you are unable to pay for until you earn some more money later this week

- had thrush and been on bute for that (which is an extremely odd treatment for thrush, by the by)

- gone from easy to bridle to so headshy that you are having trouble bridling him

- gone from easy to pick up his feet for his previous owner, you when his previous owner was present and your dad when he did him for you to refusing to pick up his feet.

Please don't take offence, but you sound very lacking in experience (and contrary to what you say, with a difficult horse it IS about experience), with a vet that doesn't really know what she is doing, and lack of decent help at your yard. I think you may need to change your vet, and pay for some proper help training him (though earlier posts suggest that you are also a bit short of ready funds to do that).

If you won't consider those things, or get abusive with me for suggesting them as you have with other posters, then I really would have to question whether this thread is a wind-up.
 
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• he was on bute and box rest as a precaution to stop him hurting himself even more before the vet comes

• he hasn't got a sore shoulder that was a query I had to eliminate that area to find out where he was lame

• the physio situation was because I just wanted to get the vet bills out of the way baring in mind I'm in full time education at college, and only work one or two days a week.

• he was on bute because the thrush type was making him lame as vet diagnosed possible canker.

• I woudlnt say he was easy to bridle but would take it. I then got his teeth checked as he wasn't comfortable in the bridle and they found a wolf tooth on the lower left which has now been removed. He isn't head shy.

• his previous owner had him for 10 years from since he was 7 months old. So of course he's going to let her pick his feet up because he respects and trusts her whereas I've had him for 2 months which is no way enough time to build trust yet.

what is a wind up? Whatever it is it probably isn't i am just simply asking for advice like what other kind people have been saying not people baffling me saying I'm 'ruining him' or 'haven't got the experience'.
 
but I don't want her to take him back? this is how he ends up scared of trusting anybody because he gets passed pillar to post (he has been loaned out before and it didn't end well) and I want to build the bond that I know we can have.
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
• he was on bute and box rest as a precaution to stop him hurting himself even more before the vet comes

• he hasn't got a sore shoulder that was a query I had to eliminate that area to find out where he was lame

• the physio situation was because I just wanted to get the vet bills out of the way baring in mind I'm in full time education at college, and only work one or two days a week.

• he was on bute because the thrush type was making him lame as vet diagnosed possible canker.

• I woudlnt say he was easy to bridle but would take it. I then got his teeth checked as he wasn't comfortable in the bridle and they found a wolf tooth on the lower left which has now been removed. He isn't head shy.

• his previous owner had him for 10 years from since he was 7 months old. So of course he's going to let her pick his feet up because he respects and trusts her whereas I've had him for 2 months which is no way enough time to build trust yet.

what is a wind up? Whatever it is it probably isn't i am just simply asking for advice like what other kind people have been saying not people baffling me saying I'm 'ruining him' or 'haven't got the experience'.
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I have bought horses for well over forty years now and I expect if they picked their feet up for their previous owner they will do it for me .
Well behaved horse change homes all the time and pick up their feet from day one they comply with being shod allow the vet to handle them and treat them .they may be a little unsettled in the first few days but should basically behave as they did before .
Trust is not the issue here a badly trained horse is coupled with the fact in the time you had him you have not solved the issue .
Your comment about your father picking up the horses feet with out issue is odd .
The farrier will be strong , the vet will have been well trained and used to handling naughty animals but they could not get him to comply .
Strength has nothing to do with it's training that gets a horse to pick up his feet my previous groom was very small and she picked the feet of our large ID's no trouble taught our youngsters to pick up their feet , her size was not relevant .
So what does your dad do because it's clearly not just size .
What steps are you taking to improve the situation ?
 
my dad said he was fine but again I wasn't there to witness he could've just said that to put my mind at ease while I was away. The vet said it will be because she was looking at his heels where the infection was which obviously was painful so he was reluctant. I have started picking up his feet but not telling him off when he doesn't but praising him lots when he does
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
but I don't want her to take him back? this is how he ends up scared of trusting anybody because he gets passed pillar to post (he has been loaned out before and it didn't end well) and I want to build the bond that I know we can have.
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Thats entirely your prerogative. I will leave it to others to advise as to how to build the bond you seek but I do think it will be an incredibily difficult task. Please ensure you won't regret hanging on to this horse who has already cost you a fair amount in vet and physio fees and who sounds to have multiple physical and psychogical issues.

Also, you say on the one hand that he has been passed from pillar to post but on the other hand that previous owner had him ten years. You also say that he has been maltreated but that the reason he picked his feet up for the previous owner was because she had had him a long time and therefore he trusted her. I am not implying you are not telling the truth, its just that you yourself seem confused as to the horse's past and what does or does not work with him, which makes me think you have a really really big task ahead of you.
 
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I am up for the task as I believe anything is possible.

sorry I know it does sound really confusing, I'm confused myself. The previous owner told be she had owned him from being a foal, then said she doesn't know what has happened to him previous, then told me he has been loaned out. so to be honest I have no idea myself even trying to get my head round it baffles me, sorry
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
I am up for the task as I believe anything is possible.

sorry I know it does sound really confusing, I'm confused myself. The previous owner told be she had owned him from being a foal, then said she doesn't know what has happened to him previous, then told me he has been loaned out. so to be honest I have no idea myself even trying to get my head round it baffles me, sorry
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I do get where you are coming from and am glad you realised I wasn't having a pop. Its just if I am honest I strongly suspect this woman has been very very untruthful with you and you are now landed with a heap of problems, some of which may not be "fixable" even with the greatest will in the world. I learnt the hard way - we were completely done over with the first horse ever sold to us when I was a kid. Looking back, it is clear now that nothing added up when we bought him and to be honest the only good thing to come out of the whole sorry episode is that I learnt the warning signs and your situation is triggering the same alarm bells. Good luck with him, I hope you find the answers you are after.
 
Horse Gifts Central said:
but I don't want her to take him back? this is how he ends up scared of trusting anybody because he gets passed pillar to post (he has been loaned out before and it didn't end well) and I want to build the bond that I know we can have.
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Bonding is not the issue it you want something to bond with something you buy a duckling .
You need to train the horse to comply with what's expected of it . You need to seek understanding that's the bond horses have with people an understanding of each other .
Lifting it's feet , standing for a jab , behaving for the farrier you don't love a horse into behaving and trusting, you train it to .
To train a horse you make a training plan ( with Input from a suitably qualified person ) and then You work every day sometimes several times a day towards the training goals you set .
I have short long and medium term goals .
So for a horse like him it might short ( in a fortnight) horse learns to lead obediently with the emphasis on stopping and standing really well , establishing the stepping and to the side when asked . The horse stands still tied up, in an enclosed place not necessarily a stable for grooming and allows you to groom all parts of him without moving including lots if brushing of the feet and lower limbs ,every time the horse moves I would replace it back to were it started and give ever you have decided the stand command is .
Medium ( six weeks ) continue consolidating the leading work and up the foot handling .theres lots of ways to train a horse to pick up it's feet ( google it ) but watching your dad's method would be a good start as you know that works teach it with a voice command I say 'up ' but you could say banana as long as you where consistent it would not matter .I would be doing this four times a day and start with the front ones it's a bit easier and safer and do wear a hat and gloves .
I would also get your dad to come and pick up the feet as often as possible then you do it straight after .
Long term ( say three months ) have the horse ready for the farrier to start working with and this might be the farrier calling in and meeting you as often as he's passing and just wearing his kit and handling the horses leg at first .
I would be trying to get the farrier there twice a week if I could .
I would as soon as I could hold the leg up start picking out the feet brushing the frogs gently and move on to tapping the walls with a light hammer .
Goals and time scales can change I amend mine all the time but I have them for each horse ,they are points to work towards that help you focus and get things to happen . You need to establish your self as the leader ,horses respond very well to strong consistent confident leaders.
But you need to deal first with these shoes you can't get off I think you need to talk to a good experienced equine vet and with the farrier make a plan to approach it as safely as possible .Its unfortunate that the horse is going to have to go through this but it needs to be done .
 
Golden star is right it's nothing to do with bonding or settling in. This horse doesn't respect you and that is the problem here. I would completely forget that he may or may not have been mistreated. Don't give him an inch. He will be much happier knowing you are in calm control, than behaving as he is currently.

The horse I mentioned before was "cured" with a length of alcothane pipe by the dealer who had her for two weeks. I know this because he told me himself. When I got her she was a dangerous mix of bolshy cob and terrified. I have been extremely tough on her, for her own good, which has not involved whips or alcothane pipe. However horses like that need very very consistent handling. If he puts a foot wrong you correct it. He's looking for the slightest weakness to exploit so he can barge his way about to get what he wants.
 
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