Shoes or barefoot?

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Ellietotz

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After some research, I've found that hooves will adapt to their work load but I'm very naive to it all and still have so many questions.
My mare was originally barefoot coming back into work after years of nothing, then the farrier who has a very good reputation said she needed fronts on, the reason I'm not 100% sure of, saying they were being worn down too much then the same happened with the backs. How do I know if they are being worn down? And when will I know if it's too much? I just don't know what the limit is until shoes might be needed?
From what I've read, if I didn't shoe her like the farrier said, would they have started adapting? I just don't know and I don't know how to tell if it's the right thing to do or not. Plus, I don't want to annoy the farrier by doing it, basically telling him he is wrong in a sense and I really don't want to do that. If I did get them taken off, how do I know if it's damaging? In my mind, I just think I don't know enough about it all and don't want to risk doing anything so just to leave it to the farrier. She's had fronts on for about 6 months and backs now for about 3.

We don't do anything apart from hack out, lots of different terrain, grass, larger stones, gravel, road etc.

I know there are loads of other long threads on this but some don't answer the questions I have!

I'd be grateful for any advice on this!

Thank you! :)
 
Well I'd never shoe, so I'm always going to say barefoot! Lots of people (including most farriers and vets) have fixed views about horses needing shoes, saying hooves will get worn away. The opposite is infact true - exercise (especially on tarmac) will provide all the movement a healthy horse needs. Barefoot can be incredibly simple. It has 3 main elements - nutrition, exercise and trimming. Nutrition is easy. Low sugar, typically a chaff, micronised linseed and a good quality supplement. Less is often more with trimming. Hooves need to be functional rather than a conventionally perfect shape. Dump your farrier - come up with an excuse if you feel uncomfortable. Say you're turning horse away for a while cos you're too busy to ride or something similar and then get a recommended trimmer on board. And read read read about it. Rockley farm blog is best place to start.
 
they do adapt to work but only so far. otherwise no one would have needed to shoe in the first place you either keep the work to the amount of growth for example my horse can do up to 3 hours a week mainly at walk. if you want yo do more work than the hoof allows then you need boots or shoes to protect the hoof from wear.
 
The feet will adapt but it takes time, means you may have to cut back on what you do when riding, will need to look into diet and management, the farrier was probably correct if you were doing more than her feet could cope with although he could have given you the option of reducing the exercise or varying where you rode to keep her on grass more than the roads and tracks but it is not always easy to get the balance of riding enough to promote the growth while not wearing them down to make them sore.
My farrier is more than happy to trim rather than shoe but some are not so keen on it, if you want to try again leave her hinds off and see how she does for 6 weeks than maybe take the fronts off but be prepared to reduce the riding while she adapts, make sure her diet is supporting growth, low sugar and starch so she has a good chance of keeping up with the work, you don't need to tell the farrier he is wrong just that you have changed your mind having looked into it is more detail and want to try again.
 
Even when farriers trim, they will still try to rasp walls, trim frogs and make hoof look conventionally balanced and matching, which is not what you want.
 
Attempting to post pictures of her feet!

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I always make a point of trying my horses bare but in some cases it just doesn't work. My current horse had no backs but fronts, I took off fronts as soon as I bought him and he was good for about a month but then started showing signs of footiness in the arena. The dry hard ground was too much for him as he is quite front heavy and heavy in general it just didn't work. During this time his hind heels had also wore away to nothing leaving his hamstrings strained and in general a sore horse. Banged the shoes on and a few months later he was working from behind and was a whole new horse. His hamstrings were not as tight and have never been since.


(can talk about it being natural all you want but you don't get 17hh heavy maxi cob types roaming the plains much!)
 
Surely the most important aspect of the hoof is that it is balanced. This is coming from someone who is very pro barefoot but have seen the pain and suffering inflicted by a trimmer that didnt balance the foot. This was in a pony who was kept on a track and by the end of its first year with the trimmer could barely walk on one of its feet. Simply corrected by x rays and good farrier trimming
 
PoppyAnderson said:
Well I'd never shoe, so I'm always going to say barefoot! Lots of people (including most farriers and vets) have fixed views about horses needing shoes, saying hooves will get worn away. The opposite is infact true - exercise (especially on tarmac) will provide all the movement a healthy horse needs. Barefoot can be incredibly simple. It has 3 main elements - nutrition, exercise and trimming. Nutrition is easy. Low sugar, typically a chaff, micronised linseed and a good quality supplement. Less is often more with trimming. Hooves need to be functional rather than a conventionally perfect shape. Dump your farrier - come up with an excuse if you feel uncomfortable. Say you're turning horse away for a while cos you're too busy to ride or something similar and then get a recommended trimmer on board. And read read read about it. Rockley farm blog is best place to start.
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Thank you! I have the nutrition down I think? I feed unmolassed chaff, yeasacc and mag ox. I could add linseed as well if this would help.
Problem with the farrier is he has been used where I am for 10+ years and he will be there to do the others anyway, I don't want it to be awkward. I will speak to YO and see what she thinks as she knows him better than I do. In terms of trimming, what SHOULD the farrier do if they're barefoot?
 
be positive said:
the farrier was probably correct if you were doing more than her feet could cope with although he could have given you the option of reducing the exercise or varying where you rode to keep her on grass more than the roads and tracks but it is not always easy to get the balance of riding enough to promote the growth while not wearing them down to make them sore.
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this is a really good point IMO, my OH is a farrier and trims lots of barefoot working horses so they don't always just want to slap some shoes on.. but if the owner is keen to continue working the horse at the current rate then it is the obvious solution because the alternative can need a bit of a change of approach. Rather than 'dumping' your farrier, I'd start a conversation as BP mentions and see what he says. You might find he's quite happy to support you with this.

I have tried and tried to get my old mare barefoot, she's had a few field injuries which have required time off and shoes off.. but each time I've ended up putting shoes back on after a good spell because to rehab her injuries I was having to increase and maintain the workload faster than her feet could cope with. Rather than compromise the rehab, I opted for shoeing her again. She's sound and working hard so for now we'll stick with it. It's a personal choice, there is no perfect answer for some of us... but you don't have to stick with either option permanently :)
 
Definitely get a proper barefoot trimmer on board! It's amazing how much you can learn from them! I know more about my girls' feet now than I ever did with a regular farrier who was just trimming the toes off. In my experience, a barefoot trimmed hoof is a lot shorter in the toe and lower in the heel than a shod foot, which is often longer in the toe and more upright, to accommodate the angles a shoe adds I assume? So it could well have been that your farrier was concerned her feet was wearing down beyond what is desired for a shod foot, but not necessarily a bare foot.

Most horses will be a bit footy when moving from shod to barefoot, there's definitely a transition period where the foot starts to adapt to being walked on, as opposed to the shoe. You may find a pair of hoof boots during this period will be helpful during this period, as the hoof will probably need time to toughen up to cope with stones and gravel.

But I'm just rambling now, takeaway from that would be to certainly get a barefoot trimmer on board :)
 
windand rain said:
Surely the most important aspect of the hoof is that it is balanced. This is coming from someone who is very pro barefoot but have seen the pain and suffering inflicted by a trimmer that didnt balance the foot. This was in a pony who was kept on a track and by the end of its first year with the trimmer could barely walk on one of its feet. Simply corrected by x rays and good farrier trimming
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Yes but balance means different things to different people. For instance, some people think flare is a bad thing but sometimes, a bit of flare compensates for what's happening further up the limb and trimming it out can cause problems later on.
 
Ellietotz said:
Thank you! I have the nutrition down I think? I feed unmolassed chaff, yeasacc and mag ox. I could add linseed as well if this would help.
Problem with the farrier is he has been used where I am for 10+ years and he will be there to do the others anyway, I don't want it to be awkward. I will speak to YO and see what she thinks as she knows him better than I do. In terms of trimming, what SHOULD the farrier do if they're barefoot?
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What chaff are you feeding?

Typically, you don't want them to rasp the walls or trim the frog (a frog should self trim with the right exercise and they can look a bit shabby and unkempt but that's ok!). You are striving to achieve heel first landing and the trimmer should watch your horse move and trim to help the horse to achieve this. There is a saying though - you can't trim a good hoof, you have to grow one (via nutrition and exercise).
 
They do adapt but there is a delay so you have to use only the foot you have. For instance when frank was doing miles and miles a week I still had to trim his feet every 2-3 weeks because of the growth rate and wear pattern. When he had to stop/reduce that work quite abruptly last summer it was about 3 months till his feet slowed down. Now he doesn't do much and easily goes 6 weeks.
 
A book that I found very thought-provoking and interesting is Performance Hoof, Performance Horse by Nic Barker (who runs Rockley Farm)

I would also talk to your farrier about it, as lots of 'why' and what does that do' type questions. As with most horse professionals there are very good and not so good, some who are interested in a particular subject, others that specialise in other things. It's not as simple as farrier vs trimmer - there are good in both, it's finding who can help your particular horse in your particular circumstances.

Nic's book explains conditioning a lot better than I could - but basically think of it in the same way as you would condition/fitten any other structure of the horse such as tendons, muscles, bones. Steady and consistent work is needed to build up the foot structures. You can no more ask a horse who lives on soft springy turf to suddenly do a hard day on roads and rough tracks than you would take an unmuscled horse cross-country, their bodies have adapted to their living conditions, they need to be slowly got fit.
 
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PoppyAnderson said:
What chaff are you feeding?

Typically, you don't want them to rasp the walls or trim the frog (a frog should self trim with the right exercise and they can look a bit shabby and unkempt but that's ok!). You are striving to achieve heel first landing and the trimmer should watch your horse move and trim to help the horse to achieve this. There is a saying though - you can't trim a good hoof, you have to grow one (via nutrition and exercise).
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Topchop Zero chaff. I think the farrier would tell be where to stick it if I wanted him to watch her moving and told him how I wanted her feet done!
 
I'm just not sure how I would approach the situation and how I know if it's not working for her which leads me to think that it's better to leave it to the farrier who knows more than I do. Saying that though, I don't want him sticking shoes on for no reason but I don't think he does and he is genuinely quite honest. Sometimes too honest!
 
ester said:
Your farrier has never watched your horse move?!
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I'm sure he's seen her walking around before but that probably doesn't really count! He's never properly stood and watched, he's the kind that wouldn't have time to do that, he knows his job etc etc!
 
I don't how anyone can truely assess balance in a stationary horse for shoeing, it takes a minute, 2 tops. Me and 'knows his job' farriers would never get on, there is always more to do and learn.

What does the owner want to do? I wouldn't want someone taking shoes off or putting them on without my agreement
 
I'd rather have a farrier or trimmer that worked with me and was open to learning/trying new things, as opposed to a 'knows his job' type that from the sounds of it, just hammers shoes on without any real consideration for the horse, especially if he won't take a couple minutes to assess the horses way of going!
 
Am I right in thinking that if however long it takes down the line, I will eventually be able do the same work as I am doing now but barefoot? On roads etc etc but with precaution of course!
 
I didn't do anything different. If we'd hunted over lots of stoney tracks he'd be bit sore the next day but he'd have that day off anyway. He wouldn't have hunted twice a week obviously. I avoided the stoniest terrain out hacking and if somewhere I didn't know took boots but rarely used them.
 
ester said:
I don't how anyone can truely assess balance in a stationary horse for shoeing, it takes a minute, 2 tops. Me and 'knows his job' farriers would never get on, there is always more to do and learn.

What does the owner want to do? I wouldn't want someone taking shoes off or putting them on without my agreement
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I am the owner now, forgot to mention, not a full loan anymore! I would like to try barefoot but I'm literally just worried about doing the wrong thing and annoying the farrier! How do I tell if they're not doing well?
 
Ellietotz said:
Thank you! I have the nutrition down I think? I feed unmolassed chaff, yeasacc and mag ox. I could add linseed as well if this would help.
Problem with the farrier is he has been used where I am for 10+ years and he will be there to do the others anyway, I don't want it to be awkward. I will speak to YO and see what she thinks as she knows him better than I do. In terms of trimming, what SHOULD the farrier do if they're barefoot?
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There's no rule about who you choose to care for your horse's foot... do what you want to do and if they are offended, that's not really your problem.

The hoof will always adapt. Always. The human is the hardest thing to adapt in most cases.

If your horse works well 3x a week up to now and suddenly you want to up it to 6 days on all manner of surfaces then absolutely you must boot or shoe. What if you ramped the workload up slowly as you would normally so the whole body gets used to it? No different with feet. They will not wear themselves down to a nub - the horse wouldn't stand up for a start will it...

So, just up the work gradually. Thats what I do. I boot for challenging work because I prefer boots to shoes, I can take them off after and I like boot shopping ;)

At the end of the day, do whats right for you and if you think front shoes is what you need to feel happy, then just get on with it but at least you will know more about feet than your yard because you've done the research and made an informed decision :)
 
sometimes even with a BF friendly bucket feed diet and restricted grass and hay, some horses are not happy unshod....
I have 1 of these. she is definitely happier shod, she was unshod for years and looking back she was never truly comfortable.
I still manage her as if she is unshod, in terms of restricted night time grass, penned in day on hay and fed on alfalfa, molasses and cereal free bucket feed and worked every day (doing 20-30min trotting and 10min canter work).
1 of my other mares needed shoes for grip on grass.

definitely try it, be prepared to take time to rehab the hoof and alter diet/ grazing and use hoof boots if needed. they are definitely healthier long term if you can keep the shoes off.
 
I know, mine only does occasionally but he even so he knew how his knees would affect his wear/travel. I know a lot don't bother but I couldn't have one that you couldn't even suggest it to!
I told mum to ask ours why he was rasping non-existent nails ;), nah she said I'll just tell him to stop it :D
 
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