Shoes - sole pressure, ideas

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FfionWinnie

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The short version / question is, should the shoe sit on wall rather than sole and does sitting on the sole cause discomfort? If so can anything be done to improve the situation in the short term while the foot is too bare for the shoe to be anywhere except on the sole.

The long version is:

My new horse is an idiot.

I took his shoes off because well I take the shoes off everything. However I've never owned a self harming idiot before.

There are three problems which I can't solve in the short term which have caused me to put the shoes back on:

He digs. I don't mean small holes, he digs huge holes for enjoyment.

He paws. As above.

He kicks out / pounds the wall in the trailer which is heavy duty and causes concussion to his front feet.

Now my usual course of action would be to leave him to learn that isn't going to get him anywhere. I'm not I don't think, stupid or unable to train a horse however he apparently is quite stupid and continually digs with this front foot which has left it very very bare.

So I got the shoes put back on because I don't have time for this caper at this time of year and he's fractionally unlevel on this front foot.

The farrier reckons it's because the foot is so bare there is sole pressure and the only cure is to wait til the foot grows.

The vet reckons it's sinister and terrible and x rays must be taken immediately. Or we can just wait and see (!). Obviously I'm not keen to take the shoes off for x ray because then he's going to pound his feet into oblivion again and I'll be back to the start assuming the farrier is right.

Meanwhile I've got a 17h WB idiot pounding around getting into all sorts of trouble.

Obviously I've also got a nervous brain working over time thinking is it something else more sinister.

Oh and for back ground the horse is a SJer. He's probably been stabled for most of his career. I've given him freedom and "bros" and he likes it all rather too much hence all the banging around he is doing. He was also cut late. I will address his behaviour over time but obviously I'd like him to be sound so I could actually ride him in the meantime.

Pointless ramble probably but if anyone would like to tell me it's all going to be fine, that would be great. Or is there something that could be done to cushion the feet til they grow back enough for the shoe not to sit on the sole. Ideas would be great.
 
Would sticking a pad on leather/other? Rim snow pad? Maybe modified? extend the wall sllightly but not at firm sole pressure?
 
OH says it should improve as the hoof grows if nothing sinister, otherwise a deep seated shoe would relieve sole pressure :)
 
Can't help with the shoeing question, but I would take him to the beach/sea if possible to stand/walk in the water.

I have found it to really help with bruising and apparently it also encourages hoof growth!
 
I would let the foot grow a bit and tell him not to be a big girls blouse and man up to the fact that its his own silly fault he is feeling the foot
 
The shoe should sit on the wall not the sole if it is on the sole it can cause lameness, some sort of pad under the shoe may help if not you just have to wait for the wall to grow, my horse was very slightly lame some years back so got the vet out he pointed out that the shoe was on the sole, he took the shoe off and parred the sole back why the farrier had left so much sole on who knows but I got someone else to shoe him and he was fine. hence why I know it can make them lame!
 
I'd kind of wonder what the pawing/digging is about - it's way too much energy expenditure for no apparent benefit. Chiro to check his shoulders/withers/back?
 
Wide web shoes were once reckoned to be the best type of shoe, and they sit on the sole as well as the hoof wall. Barefoot horses, as you know, stand on the sole as well as the inner hoof wall. He sounds like he's just scraped his sole too thin, FW, and needs a few days for it to thicken up again. I wouldn't worry too much. What a pain for you, though, to have to shoe the blighter!
 
ester said:
Would sticking a pad on leather/other? Rim snow pad? Maybe modified? extend the wall sllightly but not at firm sole pressure?
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I'll ask the farrier about this thanks.

milliepops said:
OH says it should improve as the hoof grows if nothing sinister, otherwise a deep seated shoe would relieve sole pressure :)
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Thanks. Peaches is getting a pedicure this week so I'll ask him if we could do something like that.

PorkChop said:
Can't help with the shoeing question, but I would take him to the beach/sea if possible to stand/walk in the water.

I have found it to really help with bruising and apparently it also encourages hoof growth!
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I did take him to the beach and he thought the world had ended so I'm not sure about that for him unfortunately. Anyone else it would be a great idea!

crabbymare said:
I would let the foot grow a bit and tell him not to be a big girls blouse and man up to the fact that its his own silly fault he is feeling the foot
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I have told him he's a big baby but he doesn't care!

Pinkvboots said:
The shoe should sit on the wall not the sole if it is on the sole it can cause lameness, some sort of pad under the shoe may help if not you just have to wait for the wall to grow, my horse was very slightly lame some years back so got the vet out he pointed out that the shoe was on the sole, he took the shoe off and parred the sole back why the farrier had left so much sole on who knows but I got someone else to shoe him and he was fine. hence why I know it can make them lame!
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Great thank you. He's got thin soles and no walls so hopefully it is just that then. That's what my gut says but my "I've been reading too much hho" brain says his leg is imminently going to fall off!

JillA said:
I'd kind of wonder what the pawing/digging is about - it's way too much energy expenditure for no apparent benefit. Chiro to check his shoulders/withers/back?
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He's seen an excellent physio as routine and there's nothing wrong with him.

Maybe you missed the part in my initial post but he has lived a solitary life being a professional show jumper. I know he was not turned out for a year before I got him and I suspect prior to that he has had little to no turnout / this sort of life style as he was a stallion and jumping 1.40 tracks in Ireland. I have got him out 24/7 (not in the field currently due to foot and moron galloping tendencies) with friends and adlib hay and he's a big fit strong horse. He's bored, he likes his new friends and if I have the cheek to take him and shut him in the trailer or turn one of them out he objects to that. Well of course he just has to suck it up and learn to deal with it but we are just in that tricky part of the relationship where he still doesn't know that banging around isn't going to get him what he wants! What I would like to do is take the shoes off and turn him out 24/7 on the grass with lots of sensible (native!) friends so he could get a grip of himself but I've lost two horses to grass sickeness and turning him out 24/7 would be too dangerous to contemplate. He starts careering about any time another horse is brought in or it's time to come in or it's time to go out etc etc. So for the moment he's on the turnout area all the time and shut in (briefly) when I do anything that might antagonise him.

I suppose I couldn't have got my head round his behaviour when I only owned horses with brains. He's my first WB and my first gelding and I'm afraid he isn't very intelligent and has absolutely no self preservation.

ycbm said:
Wide web shoes were once reckoned to be the best type of shoe, and they sit on the sole as well as the hoof wall. Barefoot horses, as you know, stand on the sole as well as the inner hoof wall. He sounds like he's just scraped his sole too thin, FW, and needs a few days for it to thicken up again. I wouldn't worry too much. What a pain for you, though, to have to shoe the blighter!
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Thanks. It's been weeks rather than days now. I don't think his feet grow very fast however.

I think it's barely perceivable now but I can still see a slight difference in that stride on a video. Whether he would get worse now if I started riding him I'm not sure.

I'm not giving up trying to get the shoes off in the future although if he still prats around by the end of the season I think I'll take the hinds off and play it safe re keeping the fronts on. What a ridiculous animal and a ridiculous reason for my first failure!
 
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My TB mare has flat feet and thin soles, and shoeing her with a wider flat shoe (albeit slightly heavier) works for her despite I'm sure there being a degree of sole pressure involved.

Hope stupid WB bucks his ideas up soon x

Fiona
 
Fiona said:
My TB mare has flat feet and thin soles, and shoeing her with a wider flat shoe (albeit slightly heavier) works for her despite I'm sure there being a degree of sole pressure involved.

Hope stupid WB bucks his ideas up soon x

Fiona
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Thanks. So desperate to get out and do something!

PoppyAnderson said:
You said you had 3 problems. What are the other 2?
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I just meant the three issues he is self harming his feet with are that 1) he digs hole 2) he paws and kicks in the trailer / if tied up and 3) he gallops around like a moron. You could condense them all into one problem really but I wanted to be specific about how he is causing the soreness in case it mattered to the answers.
 
Lanky Loll said:
whilst waiting for the hoof to come right are glue on's an option - less stress on the hoof wall than nailing on (but spendy :()
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Ah well I'm not sure why I hadn't thought of that but yes. That is an option isn't it! He's still just the same slightly unlevel and I'm thinking I'd rather he had the shoes off and was in a grass paddock with hay so he couldn't really damage them or run about too much but at least if he went sound I would know about sole pressure or not!

Nugget La Poneh said:
Maybe try the glue on rubber hoof boots? Or Equicast type ones that should offer a bit more on the hoof wall as well as the sole.
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Yes that's also a good idea. I'm going to see the farrier on Thurs so will see what he's willing to do outside the box.

Every day this goes on my confidence about getting on him at all never mind doing that BE80 this year ebbs away further.
 
Have a look at Duplo polymer shoes, easy to get from Germany, my old mare who had been barefoot for 10 years needed some protection when in her 20's and metabolically challenged, these were brilliant, cushioning, comfortable, easy for farrier to fit and they lasted through 9 resets @ 6 week intervals, ridden on roads 3 times a week. Because of the material the nails didn't make big holes and minimal concussion. I used the model green, extra, clipped and profiled, click on union jack for English http://www.duplo-frank.de/index.php
 
Lovethebeach said:
Have a look at Duplo polymer shoes, easy to get from Germany, my old mare who had been barefoot for 10 years needed some protection when in her 20's and metabolically challenged, these were brilliant, cushioning, comfortable, easy for farrier to fit and they lasted through 9 resets @ 6 week intervals, ridden on roads 3 times a week. Because of the material the nails didn't make big holes and minimal concussion. I used the model green, extra, clipped and profiled, click on union jack for English http://www.duplo-frank.de/index.php
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Thanks for that. I'll ask him about them too. Friend who's yard I go to join in with their farrier visits doesn't think he will be keen on glue ons but those look like a half way house.
 
seen duplos posted about before and people like them. I prefer the easyshoe NG I think on the basis of allowing for heel movement.

I suspect to a certain extend it perhaps depends whether it is definitely just sole pressure causing the issue. If it is it shouldn't take long for him to grow some extra wall in shoes and relieve it but that depends if you can wait and see. I guess I am wondering whether a polymer shoe will actually reduce that pressure particularly if that is the issue compared to say Milliepops OH's plan which would be easy to do and somewhat diagnostic too perhaps?
 
Ah ok so can I have an idiots guide to what is a deep seated shoe I was assuming we needed more growth to do that.

They don't look like they have grown at all (wails!) and even when I first got him and his feet were really really needing done, there was hardly anything to come off.

I think it's bruising plus now sole pressure.

Spoke to another vet today and she said nerve block before xraying and that could be done with shoes on so that seems more sensible because then I would know for sure it's his foot. She thought pads should be considered as it may help but felt the chances of a deep bruise are very high.
 
Deep seated shoe is where the inside rim is bashed by the farrier so that it is moved away from contacting the sole I shall fb you a pic as easier
 
On a deep seated shoe (as far as I understand lol) on the underside - closest to the hoof - it is flat against the hoof only where the nails go in, but on the inner edge it is beveled outwards/thinner so that there isn't any surface touching the sole - but it has the same amount of bearing surface on the outside/closest to the ground.

On another note, we have a horse on the yard who has the duplo shoes and she does really well with them. For me they look too much like bar does, and even though the frog coverage is all composite, I don't know how it can do the horse any good. Said horse has been in front pads for years though, and she has the tiniest frogs you've ever seen!
 
Thanks guys. I'm only (hopefully!!) needing something short term and ultimately my hope is to get the shoes off and make his feet as good as they can be.
 
Had a good chat with the farrier. He will do glue ons if I want him to but he cautioned about them being unlikely to stay on a normal horse never mind one who jumps around all the time. At 180 a set and the risk he could mash his feet further removing them it's not worth the risk.

The equicast bandage stuff he said he hasn't used but he's seen the results on a horse he took over and he thinks it's terrible stuff as it compresses the foot. Obviously I don't want to make his feet worse so I don't fancy that.

He was very good and talked through it all but the upshot is patience is a virtue and I'll just have to wait really.

Oh and he's already got a deep seated shoe on.

He thinks it's likely to be a deep bruise.

In other news I've bought him some hobbles. Not something I would ever have thought I would need to use but I've concluded it's necessary to prevent him bashing his feet in at least for now. He wore them for the first time today and guess what. He knew exactly what they were and was totally unconcerned. He then stood calmly eating his hay not kicking the trailer or messing around at all! I feel a little better now that he's obviously behaved like this before and it's not complete incompetence on my part!
 
Just an update. The creature is sounder. Still a minuscule fraction below 100% but I think sounder than most horses I've seen this weekend (!) so I'm starting to think it really is just a bruise and it's all going to be ok. I couldn't see it when I was leading him. Only just in the video and the physio agreed it's barely there now.

How long would you leave it once he is sound, to start work? Can you antagonise it or should he not get any lamer again now if it is a bruise?

Also his behaviour since being incarcerated has improved back to almost perfect. Strange horse! I think I would rather hack him than let him lose in the field at this stage as he is likely to start bounding around again so he's not going out yet.

Thanks all.
 
FfionWinnie said:
In other news I've bought him some hobbles. Not something I would ever have thought I would need to use but I've concluded it's necessary to prevent him bashing his feet in at least for now. He wore them for the first time today and guess what. He knew exactly what they were and was totally unconcerned. He then stood calmly eating his hay not kicking the trailer or messing around at all! I feel a little better now that he's obviously behaved like this before and it's not complete incompetence on my part!
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I've just read through the thread and I can't help much with the hoof issue, but I was going to suggest hobbles to you. I used to be an SJ groom and, in fairness, most of them travelled very well as they were so used to it. However we did have one that liked to dig holes in the horse box and hobbles were a great help with him. Obviously the ideal is that they travel perfectly without them, but it's far better to hobble them than let them wreck their feet or the box/ trailer.
I was lucky enough to work for SJ riders who gave their horses as much turnout as possible, but if the horses had been out of the field for a while (if very wet over winter or if they'd been at a stay away show) it was always quite nerve wracking turning them out again as they would go wild! We also used to notice a big difference between ones who'd barely been turned out and those who were used to it.
 
Thanks HR, that makes me feel better. I don't really want to use them but he's a different horse when he's not turning himself inside out so I'll just have to for now! He was fine when I first got him but I think his behaviour has declined due to all the fun freedoms he's got to enjoy now.

I am a bit worried about how I will get him turned out. He is out 24/7 on the surfaced TO area but I know if I put him on the grass he's going to go wild again. He's definitely not used to it. If I could leave him out 24/7 it wouldn't be so bad but he's a prime candidate for EGS and I can't risk it.

I spoke to the farrier at an event today and he is happy for me to crack on with him so fingers crossed he stays sound (and calm)!
 
Nick kilner farrier said:
Bless him, he sounds like an absolute treasure 😂. A rim pad under the shoe should alleviate any discomfort and without too much added expense. Simple but effective.
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Thanks! In many ways he is a treasure and in other ways he's a total idiot. My first gelding ;)

Slightlyconfused said:
No comments on the main problems as I have no experience with sjers but my gelding can get very hormonal this time of year, not a rig, and we give him this supplement. It's brilliant and not taut expensive either.

http://www.gsequestrian.co.uk/gold-...JAkold0ZDqboraZ-10RjHqI_8b28AVZBpsaAgaQ8P8HAQ
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Thanks that is interesting. I do think it's hormonal if only in his head (!) some days he is a big dope and other days he's bouncing off the walls for no decernible reason!
 
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