Shortage of grooms?

[Leandy]

Turnover of staff will always be relatively high because yard jobs are low pay and attract young women. Other jobs with the same demographic have the same issue. This has always been the case. That said, my purely personal observation of having been around competition and livery yards for several decades (as client more often but also working when I was younger), is that those which are good places to work, treat staff fairly and consistently and as valuable members of the team and which have an interest in their staff and an eye to offering tangible benefits by way of training and experience and extra perks such as keep for own horse, and, importantly where managers and employers are dedicated themselves and work hard with good humour running a tight ship alongside their staff, and which are happy for staff to leave on good terms and keep in touch, have little difficulty attracting and keeping loyal staff. Those who have little by way of people or management skills, show little interest in their staff, don't supervise or train them adequately, don't deal with lazy or unreliable individuals, expect long and uncertain hours in poor conditions for little personal development or even thanks, and which are simply not interesting or pleasant places to be, struggle. I wouldn't see this as surprising and some yard owners and managers should take a good hard look at their set up. My observation is that there are good dedicated people who continue to want to work with horses (even if only for a few years rather than a whole career) for the love of the job and just to be part of the horsy world but employers need to think long and hard about what they are offering and how attractive it is and whether it is conducive to a family or other life outside the yard - this very important where no accommodation is offered. They should think about the attractiveness of the hours, especially for part time workers, whether there is a warm comfortable staff room to have coffee, lunch and a rest in, a decent toilet, a staff Christmas lunch, a cake for a birthday, a drink at the pub for "the team" after a good competition result, a lift home and back in the morning when the staff members' tyre is flat after a long day .... etc etc. It should be obvious and common decency to provide this sort of thing but it seems it sometimes is not. Then such people wonder why there are no staff around any more.

 

[PinkvSantaboots]

I did it for years I've worked for some real bad employers and some really good most of it is mucking out which takes its toll, some days I mucked out 11 to 16 horses sometimes more and now I'm 50 my back is shot I can just about manage 3 or 4 now, I would never do it again for any amount of money ever once I hit 40 I had truly had enough of it.

 

[Bonnie Allie]

As in all jobs, employers get the staff they deserve. For too long the employment conditions and pay have been poor. Of course there are those that know how to attract and keep talent who consistently get the pick of quality staff.

The equine industry suffers from lack of professionalism across all services. Folk who can’t turn up on time, return phone calls or show general reliability keep the whole industry as transactional poorly paid service providers.

 

[chaps89]

I’ve never understood why (bigger) yards don’t split the work into shifts, maybe a 7-3 and 10.30-6.30.
Better hours, more reasonable days, splits the jobs out amongst staff, horses don’t have to come in so early so less bedding/forage used (potentially)

 

[teapot]

I’ve never understood why (bigger) yards don’t split the work into shifts, maybe a 7-3 and 10.30-6.30.
Better hours, more reasonable days, splits the jobs out amongst staff, horses don’t have to come in so early so less bedding/forage used (potentially)

We did in my last job - it works until someome goes sick, and the 7-3 becomes 7 to 7pm...

 

[Ceifer]

We did in my last job - it works until someome goes sick, and the 7-3 becomes 7 to 7pm...

There is this problem …

generally employers don’t want the hassle of dealing with the paperwork of too many staff if they’re running them through their books.

Also I’ve found that it can lead to staff members moaning about other team members not doing things on their shifts.

 

[LittleRolo]

Since about mid-December I have seen a constant stream of adverts on my social media looking for grooms, either full time or part time, and for both local yards, equestrian centres, international riders and private yards.

Are there less people willing to work on yards now? or is it a seasonal fluctuation perhaps? Most seem to be offered at £10ph (or those that write it on the JD anyway), would that have a bearing on it now that that is basically minimum wage for a 23yo?

I am in the South East, I would be interested to know if it's the same elsewhere..

That's more than minimum wage. Over 25's get £8.96 p/h

 

[teapot]

There is this problem …

generally employers don’t want the hassle of dealing with the paperwork of too many staff if they’re running them through their books.

Also I’ve found that it can lead to staff members moaning about other team members not doing things on their shifts.

Having many staff can be a problem paperwork wise, and does end up costing more in terms of employee benefits etc, but in my experience we didn't want people only doing one shift a week, so our part time was still three or four days, purely because of continuity of care and knowing how the yard ran. It was covering last minute gaps that used to piss people off the most!

 

[spotty_pony]

I’ve worked with horses since leaving college (now 31) and like others said I have worked with some good and some bad employees. It takes its toll on your back and joints eventually though. I worked really hard all through my 20s. These days I just do riding and clipping and am looking for a career change. Doing my HGV to maybe do some horse transport to keep working with horses in a different way. Yard work at my age is really not worthwhile for the pay you get. If pay was better, I think a lot more older people would stick at it but sadly we have responsibilities and bigger bills that the low wages just don’t cover.

 

[Ceifer]

Having many staff can be a problem paperwork wise, and does end up costing more in terms of employee benefits etc, but in my experience we didn't want people only doing one shift a week, so our part time was still three or four days, purely because of continuity of care and knowing how the yard ran. It was covering last minute gaps that used to piss people off the most!

I can see how that would be a pain.
I think On some yards it would work really well. Especially big yards.

I also found towards the end of my time working with horses that yards were changing. Young riders coming up the rankings setting up yards and having liveries to supplement their income. Which is a good idea. Except the one yard I ran, the young rider was trying to run 6 event horses, have 10 liveries, draw a wage, rent the yard and pay staff. She was permanently broke and in a bad mood

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

That's more than minimum wage. Over 25's get £8.96 p/h

It won't be for long..

 

[mariew]

It won't be for long..

View attachment 85374

I got paid £8.23 25 years ago in my first basic London admin job... Unless you live with your parents I don't know how you could actually live in the se on even £10 per hour.

 

[SO1]

The grooms on my part livery yard are wonderful.

There are quite a few different ones, most are part time as it fits in with other work or things they like to do. If they want to ride then YO will try and enable it to happen either riding clients horses for paid money if they are a suitable standard or a free share if they are not at the stage where they can exercise the horses that need exercising for a fee. It has a real community feel about it and the grooms and clients all socialise together.

I wonder if there are more grooms jobs available as more people bought horses during the pandemic when they were mainly wfh and people were returning to work in offices and they started needing more assistance.

I think like a lot of jobs it depends on how nice your boss is it not just the money. I expect some of the employers and clients at the more fancy yards maybe a bit diva like and unfriendly and once people have had a bad experience in the sector they don't want to do the job any more.
Not everyone wants to work full time indoors with people in an office, hospitality or retail.

I do think Brexit and Covid has had a massive impact reducing the number of people from outside the UK who come for a few years to experience working or studying in a different country who might take on these roles. Riding is so expensive in the UK that there are less young people who are having the opportunity and getting the horse addiction and wanting to work with them so the pool of suitably experienced people is quite small as older people start retiring from the industry.

Recruitment across all sectors is difficult.

A lot of grooms jobs are hybrid a combination of unskilled, semi skilled and skilled tasks which makes the pay and finding the right people difficult.

A lot of yards expect grooms to be able to do a huge range of tasks from manual unskilled tasks such poo picking, filling up haynets, filling up water, skipping out and mucking out to really responsible skilled stuff such as checking horses for injury or illness, administration of first aid or some basic treatment and preparation of horses for competition including grooming, clipping, plaiting and exercising. It is quite unusual to have roles where there is maybe 75% unskilled manual work plus 25% skilled knowledge and difficult to get a suitable wage to reflect that.

I think a salary of 35k is not feasible for a junior groom working a standard 35 hour week that is more than a new qualified doctor, accountant or teacher earns and more than most of the senior officers at the charity I work for earn.

However they do need to earn a living wage and be treated with respect which includes paid overtime certainly for manual roles. They also need to be given decent equipment for the jobs to make it easier.

In all of my office jobs my salary seems ok but when you look at the amount of unpaid overtime it does not look so rosy. In my last job most people were given extra work under the premises it was a great learning and development opportunity that may lead to a promotions, which never materialised or prevent them from being made redundant. When you worked out the hourly rate and the amount of unpaid overtime it was for many well below minimum wage.

I expect some grooms go into roles expecting to get learning opportunities to advance their career if they want to be a professional rider or because they enjoy being around horses and think it will be better than working indoors even if the salary is not so good.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I got paid £8.23 25 years ago in my first basic London admin job... Unless you live with your parents I don't know how you could actually live in the se on even £10 per hour.

£10 after tax and NI (assuming no pension) is £1410pcm:

- In my town the absolute cheapest rent you would get is £625 and that would be a bedsit. A studio would be more £750 minimum
- The council tax on the studio you would rent for that is £99, water is £23.80, electric £40pm, Gas £30.
- Then you have luxuries like a TV License at £13.37 and internet at £20, a phone bill at £15, life insurance at £15, Accident and loss of earnings insurance at £18.
- As a 25yo your car insurance is £35 and tax is £10. Lets say £20 a week on fuel, being generous with prices at 147p per litre here, that's another £85pcm.

That would leave you with £255 a month to live on, or £52 a week.. which you need to somehow make sure you build savings for car maintenance, and MOT/Service, replacement yard boots.... oh well, you won't need anything extra anyway as you'll be working a 80 hour week

 

[SO1]

Sadly many people can't afford to live or buy a propery on their own on a low or middle income not just grooms. The cost of housing is crazy. Being able to afford to live on your own is luxury now I think.

I could not afford to live and rent on my own till I was 35 and I had an office job and was never on grooms wages. I was in flatshares until then as were most of my single friends unless they were able to live at home or with family. I don't know any 25 years old who earn enough to live on their own.

If you are single no kids or partner in rented property why would you need life insurance.

I also think it depends where in the country you live. That is the salary is what my sister earns and she rents a 3 bed house and has two kids and a partner who does not work at the moment. Admittedly it not easy and he is looking for work as it is hard to support 4 people on that salary. Certainly in most parts of the country you could not afford to support a family on a grooms wage.

There are plenty of professions where you are unlikely to earn enough to live on your own and that is something most people accept when they go into that role.

I work for a charity and at 50 do not own my property yet none of the single people who work at the charity own a property including my boss who earns a lot more than me. If I had chosen to go into banking or law or IT I would have earned more and been able to get a mortgage and save up a big deposit on my own. If I had a partner I could have shared costs with I could also have done it.

We all make decisions in life. People may decide they would be happier as groom working with horses than being a rich lawyer.

I do have a horse, he does cost me a lot of my salary especially as he is now on part livery. However I would rather have him than sitting around on my own every evening after work and weekends for years in an attempt to afford to buy my own property.

If I had had the opportunity to live with family with reduced rent instead of renting privately like some of my friends have done I would have done it to save money.

Although unlucky in love, I may end up owning half a small property with my sister thanks the generosity of my mother who has inherited a house from her mother. My parents are mortgage free and quite comfortable after downsizing from a larger property but nothing in life is guaranteed and I can't quite believe this nice thing might happen to me.

£10 after tax and NI (assuming no pension) is £1410pcm:

- In my town the absolute cheapest rent you would get is £625 and that would be a bedsit. A studio would be more £750 minimum
- The council tax on the studio you would rent for that is £99, water is £23.80, electric £40pm, Gas £30.
- Then you have luxuries like a TV License at £13.37 and internet at £20, a phone bill at £15, life insurance at £15, Accident and loss of earnings insurance at £18.
- As a 25yo your car insurance is £35 and tax is £10. Lets say £20 a week on fuel, being generous with prices at 147p per litre here, that's another £85pcm.

That would leave you with £255 a month to live on, or £52 a week.. which you need to somehow make sure you build savings for car maintenance, and MOT/Service, replacement yard boots.... oh well, you won't need anything extra anyway as you'll be working a 80 hour week

 

[PurBee]

£10 per hour to push a broom around a factory is fine for a school-leaver, who lives in a rental 1 bed flat.

But to pay that to a 25+ yr old with mortgage, kids/husband/wife and with experience of handling and caring for potentially lethal half tonne flight animals in all weather conditions is an absolute joke. Sloshing around in mud and p*ss and sh*t, hauling barrows and 20kg feed/bedding bales around. I dont think i’d accept less than 18 quid an hour tbh, as the work if full-on to get ALL yard jobs done.
Most grooms are likely the ones to spot illnesses and lameness before anyone else/the riders as they’re handling the horse so often. It’s a job where you have to be on the ball, especially if you’re grooming a whole yard. Its not easy work like other ‘labour-type’ jobs.

It may well be considered as ‘just’ manual labour work by many in the industry, yet labourers on building sites to push a broom around with no experience of anything get paid 100 per day….most of that is standing around chatting and drinking tea!

Equine wages have always been pitiful. I never realised the industry still disrespected their staff so much.

I knew a groom who worked all hours exercising polo horses and also had a carer job at an elderly home. She was constantly exhausted, extremely depressed and skint. I was shocked about her wages back then. She lived in a bedsit as a 20-something 10yrs ago. We lost touch but she quit the horse world, sold her horse, the whole lot. So probably a lot more experienced riders and grooms once mid 20’s hit they just quit.…leaving a huge gap in the market.

 

[asmp]

Not read all the replies in depth but, being out of work recently, I browsed the ads on a local site. Most of the jobs expect you to be there early in the morning and then again later in the afternoon. In effect using up your whole day but only getting paid for part of it. One that did stand out was the one that expected you to do 7-3 six days a week!

 

[Hannahgb]

I used to do it, got paid a set wage but expected to work over your hours constantly. Not a penny more when you got up at 3am to go to a show, to get home at 10pm. 2 days off a month and could hardly afford to pay my fuel let along think about living on my own!

 

[Shilasdair]

The problem, I think, is that yards are not run as businesses. In no other SME would the owner expect not to do any work at all, to complain about 'difficult' customers, etc. When was the last time you were surveyed about your experiences of livery on a yard? Or asked if you needed anything.
The equine industry needs dragged, kicking and whining no doubt, into the 21st century - it's no longer landed gentry and their servants - it should be a business offering a quality service to meet customer needs, profitably.

 

[ester]

In the South East I would suggest that an entry level employed groom working a 5 day week (8 hours per day) needs to be on a salary of no less that £35K per year minimun which is about £17 per hour.

That's all I earn as an 9 year post doctoral scientist in Cambridge ?

 

[ester]

Not read all the replies in depth but, being out of work recently, I browsed the ads on a local site. Most of the jobs expect you to be there early in the morning and then again later in the afternoon. In effect using up your whole day but only getting paid for part of it. One that did stand out was the one that expected you to do 7-3 six days a week!

That's what I've seen a lot of and I can't see it appealing to many.

 

[Squeak]

I’ve never understood why (bigger) yards don’t split the work into shifts, maybe a 7-3 and 10.30-6.30.
Better hours, more reasonable days, splits the jobs out amongst staff, horses don’t have to come in so early so less bedding/forage used (potentially)

My experience has been that there's no need to split two shifts. One shift can work from 8am - 9pm 6 days a week and get up early and stay late to go to shows.

 

[blitznbobs]

The problem, I think, is that yards are not run as businesses. In no other SME would the owner expect not to do any work at all, to complain about 'difficult' customers, etc. When was the last time you were surveyed about your experiences of livery on a yard? Or asked if you needed anything.
The equine industry needs dragged, kicking and whining no doubt, into the 21st century - it's no longer landed gentry and their servants - it should be a business offering a quality service to meet customer needs, profitably.

Unfortunately people don’t (or can’t) necessarily pay for the staff that this kind of service would need… if there was a hike of 200 quid a month for this sort of service then I doubt there are many that will pay it…. People already complain about paying 650 to 800 quid for a month of horse “looking after” given the price of hay/ bedding etc there just isn’t the margin in it to employ staff for the extra service element. I have seen yards set up on this premis and folded fairly quickly. The horse world is a strange one, compare it to the golf or shooting clientele and they are so much harder to part with their money. It is probably because it is no longer the realm of “the landed gentry” that service has slipped etc… I guess you might class me as “landed gentry” in some ways and I have 1 groom to look after 4 horses and she gets paid above market rate and we have a really good relationship (she’s a bit of a loner so much prefers it if I sod off and leave her to the ponies as they are far better company?) but these jobs are probably very few and far between tbh - most people want aldi prices and with aldi prices you get aldi service and aldi wages

 

[SO1]

A lot of people work more than their contracted hours for no extra money but I think it is not acceptable in any role that is minimum wage and where those extra hours can not be considered "learning and development" and even then if you were a working pupil it is still a bit off. If you are not in training it means you are not receiving the minimum wage for the hours you are working if you are working unpaid over time and not paid or given time off in lieu.

Sadly this applies to many roles where people are scared to be fired if they ask for more pay or better working conditions.

I used to do it, got paid a set wage but expected to work over your hours constantly. Not a penny more when you got up at 3am to go to a show, to get home at 10pm. 2 days off a month and could hardly afford to pay my fuel let along think about living on my own!

 

[Hopelessly horsey]

Reading this I actually feel very lucky... I work PT as a groom but quite often get the chance for an extra days cover.

Having come from a VERY stressful office job I can honestly say it's the best career move I have made. I have gone from being held on the phones after hours, to then being stuck in traffic commuting (4 hours was my longest due to heavy traffic and diversions!)

Now I actually enjoy going to work every day, my bosses are absolutely fantastic and very supportive. Yes the pay is NMW but I manage. Yes the extra money from the office job was great and I had a nicer car and more holidays......but I was always ill from the stress.

Going back to the original post. Yes I see an awful lot of adverts for grooms and a majority, sadly, are not appreciated in the job when they start that causes them to leave soon after.

 

[SO1]

I think the other problem is that you are paying people to do tasks that other people do as a hobby so it can be perceived as more of fun role where people should be glad to paid for doing their hobby even though in reality it is not like that at all.

Nobody would work in supermarket for free as a hobby whereas a lot of people do care for horses and ride as a hobby. It is a bit of weird one in that you get people paying to ride horses in riding schools or as sharers and at the same time as others are paying grooms to exercise their horses.

I think grooms is one of the few roles where you get people doing the same or very similar tasks as a hobby and this contributes perhaps to the low pay.

Caring roles are not very valued in general so human carers are also not well paid and most people would probably prefer to shovel horse poo than clean up human poo off surfaces and people. The difference is in paid human carers they most would not do more hours for free. My sister did some caring work and it was pretty gross at times washing poos off elderly people and off their floors if they had an accident. Clipping their over grown toenails and other personal hygiene tasks.

I don't think it is solely the wage it is the way that people are treated and they are not made to feel a valuable member of an essential team by employers or clients. Regular breaks, somewhere warm and dry to sit and have their lunch break, good tools to do the job, being paid or given extra time off for every hour they work beyond their comtracted hours, being asked how their job could made eaiser and being involved in decision making processes and given a chance to learn new skills.

 

[Shilasdair]

Unfortunately people don’t (or can’t) necessarily pay for the staff that this kind of service would need… if there was a hike of 200 quid a month for this sort of service then I doubt there are many that will pay it…. People already complain about paying 650 to 800 quid for a month of horse “looking after” given the price of hay/ bedding etc there just isn’t the margin in it to employ staff for the extra service element. I have seen yards set up on this premis and folded fairly quickly. The horse world is a strange one, compare it to the golf or shooting clientele and they are so much harder to part with their money. It is probably because it is no longer the realm of “the landed gentry” that service has slipped etc… I guess you might class me as “landed gentry” in some ways and I have 1 groom to look after 4 horses and she gets paid above market rate and we have a really good relationship (she’s a bit of a loner so much prefers it if I sod off and leave her to the ponies as they are far better company?) but these jobs are probably very few and far between tbh - most people want aldi prices and with aldi prices you get aldi service and aldi wages

With respect, you don't KNOW that people won't pay for a quality livery service. I would.
But - here's my experience of 'full (part/non-ridden) livery -

Month 1 - I pay, they do everything delightfully.
Month 2 - I pay, but they no longer pick out horses' feet on way in from field.
Month 3 - I pay, but they no longer pick out feed, nor poo pick field - I end up doing that myself at weekends as it is disgusting.
Month 4 - I pay, but they decide it is easier not to change rugs at night. I turn up at 5pm to see my girls - they have no hay left. 'They are pigs' I am told. One is, but one is really not. It is my hay they are using - at my expense, but filling haynets is a bore.
Month 5 - I pay, but now I have to go up every night to fill haynets, pick out feet, groom, change rugs, and check them.
Month 6 - I pay, but I am now having to totally muck out at weekends (they are skipping out the visible poo in the shavings, leaving the rest if it is hidden).
If you complain- you create atmosphere - and who wants to have to complain all the time? The YO doesn't care as it's in her interests to take your money, but do the minimum possible. You become a 'difficult' or 'precious' livery.
Month 7 - I put my horses back on DIY - the only difference being I am no longer paying for all these services I didn't receive.

Yard owner perspective - no one is willing to pay for full/part livery.

 

[blitznbobs]

With respect, you don't KNOW that people won't pay for a quality livery service. I would.
But - here's my experience of 'full (part/non-ridden) livery -

Month 1 - I pay, they do everything delightfully.
Month 2 - I pay, but they no longer pick out horses' feet on way in from field.
Month 3 - I pay, but they no longer pick out feed, nor poo pick field - I end up doing that myself at weekends as it is disgusting.
Month 4 - I pay, but they decide it is easier not to change rugs at night. I turn up at 5pm to see my girls - they have no hay left. 'They are pigs' I am told. One is, but one is really not. It is my hay they are using - at my expense, but filling haynets is a bore.
Month 5 - I pay, but now I have to go up every night to fill haynets, pick out feet, groom, change rugs, and check them.
Month 6 - I pay, but I am now having to totally muck out at weekends (they are skipping out the visible poo in the shavings, leaving the rest if it is hidden).
If you complain- you create atmosphere - and who wants to have to complain all the time? The YO doesn't care as it's in her interests to take your money, but do the minimum possible. You become a 'difficult' or 'precious' livery.
Month 7 - I put my horses back on DIY - the only difference being I am no longer paying for all these services I didn't receive.

Yard owner perspective - no one is willing to pay for full/part livery.

Ive seen it happen — i have been on both sides — i have been on a fab yard that tried to maintain standards but had holy hell when they tried to put prices up. So the downward spiral started, employing kids with no experience as they were cheap but actually not up to the job and definitely not up to the customer relations. Another yard which was much smaller couldn’t fill their stables due to the prices… i too would (and have) paid for really good livery despite having top notch facilities at home… but having run livery yards as an owner in the past … my opinion on the matter is never again (except maybe mare/ foal / youngster livery - where livery owner contact is more personal and less often…) its getting enough people in one place who are willing to pay that is the issue. Thats why it works ok near London but anywhere else the finances work less well…

I really wish there was such a yard where the service was second to none …

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I think grooms is one of the few roles where you get people doing the same or very similar tasks as a hobby and this contributes perhaps to the low pay.

Caring roles are not very valued in general so human carers are also not well paid and most people would probably prefer to shovel horse poo than clean up human poo off surfaces and people. The difference is in paid human carers they most would not do more hours for free. My sister did some caring work and it was pretty gross at times washing poos off elderly people and off their floors if they had an accident. Clipping their over grown toenails and other personal hygiene tasks.

Re: the first point it's an interesting one I hadn't considered! I think that definitely plays a part, some peopl are almost of the mindset that they're lucky to be able to 'play' horses and have opportunities to ride.

Re: your second line, caring is paid much better than grooming I think. I was a domicillary carer (drive from house to house) and I was on £12 per hour as an 18yo, plus time and a half on Sunday or Bank Holidays..

 

[SO1]

I work in London and being a carer in nursing home is less than £10 an hour on most ads. I did a quick search on local ads but I expect roles where you go into people's homes unsupervised probably pay more.

Re: the first point it's an interesting one I hadn't considered! I think that definitely plays a part, some peopl are almost of the mindset that they're lucky to be able to 'play' horses and have opportunities to ride.

Re: your second line, caring is paid much better than grooming I think. I was a domicillary carer (drive from house to house) and I was on £12 per hour as an 18yo, plus time and a half on Sunday or Bank Holidays..